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[CCPls] War Mechanics Suggestion

Author
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2017-05-05 21:35:27 UTC
If you want to hurt the merc corp that just decced you, you don't fight the merc corp that just decced you. The merc corp that just decced you has nothing in space worth fighting, and if you show up to fight, they just dock up.

You take the fight to the holding corp with all their citadels and POCOs, which gives them a reason to actually show up. Or you fleets ships out that they don't take very seriously.

A signature :o

#22 - 2017-05-05 23:41:37 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Not really. Eve is a niche game, it's not for everyone. It's designed as a pvp playground and its meant to be harsh.

At some point youre going tp to get shot at. And its unlikely to be a fair fight. Thats what a sandbox is. If you don't feel like playing because of unfair fights then eve isnt for you.



You would think with all the years of practice, one would come up with a new line occasionally.

You may have missed it, but this is ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with fair fights or otherwise.

But it is easier I guess to pull line number 22 out of your ass pouch, because it might be suitable, you might get lucky sometimes.


What are you talking about, the OP? Because that is exactly what it is about as he spells out:

Quote:
Most aggressor fights are entirely 1 sided (although this can be said of most EVE fights regardless of region Lol). Still, I think there could be value in increment the system to where it allows the defender to even the odds somewhat.


Even the OP acknowledges that he is attempting to artificially "even the odds" in an open-world, PvP sandbox game.

That is futile. Eve is not intended to be fair or balanced but an single universe Battle Royale. You can claim someone pointing this out is being trite, but that doesn't change the fact it is absolutely true, whether you like it or not. Even the OP understands this even if he then goes on to propose an idea that completely undermines the whole idea of highsec wars to allow legal fighting between two defined sides.

I think it is time you come to terms that wardecs are not a mistake or oversight but a very much intended mechanism to allow the designed game play of Eve to go on in highsec. I think we share some limited common ground that alternative social systems should exist, but your one-man campaign to straight-out abolish them isn't going anywhere. Any replacement will basically be the same and still allow the strong to prey on the weak, the big on the small and all the other player-driven interactions that arise in our shared sandbox as it has been engineered to work.

I know that isn't going to stop you from continuing, but who I am to tell you how to enjoy your game? Forum wrangling, even of the misguided variety, is content in its own right so keep at it.
#23 - 2017-05-06 00:19:23 UTC
You're complaining about noobs not sticking with the game because they are being 'exterminated' at the earliest opportunity.

I forget that extermination is synonymous with fair fight...


Face it, every complaint about wardecs, even yours, stems from the strong attacking the weak. What you don't understand is that eve was designed with the freedom to let that happen. It's not a failure or mistake when it does happen. Predators and prey is a pretty natural thing. It's inevitable in a game based on freedom.

But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Brave Collective
#24 - 2017-05-07 18:48:13 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.

We have social corps.
No one said you had to use CCP's corp and alliance mechanic the way CCP intended.

That's the problem most of these threads are complaining about. Some noob makes a new corporation and invites everyone in NPC starter chat. 40 new players join the corporation "cuz it's a guild, lol" and get wardecced by everyone for being an obvious target. Then three or four of them come to the forums to cry that it's not fair.

EvE's hard, man
#25 - 2017-05-08 16:22:53 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Not really. Eve is a niche game, it's not for everyone. It's designed as a pvp playground and its meant to be harsh.

Nothing wrong with being niche if the game is meeting CCP's financial goals. What I'm seeing suggests it's not.

How often do you see developers revise their tutorial missions? In my admittedly limited experience that doesn't happen unless they're having retention issues. It certainly makes the game a bit more approachable but I'm not convinced it'll be enough to swing the churn in a positive direction. Only time will tell who's right.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.

Custom chat channels are one thing. How do you manage wallets and hangar access if everybody is in an NPC corp? Or do you suggest holding corp hopscotch? "Ok everybody, ABC Logistics just got dec'd this week we're re-joining XYZ Partners." Personally that's just a bit obscure.

Whatever I'm sure CCP's db team won't mind the table bloat.
#26 - 2017-05-08 20:15:58 UTC
Benje en Divalone wrote:

Custom chat channels are one thing. How do you manage wallets and hangar access if everybody is in an NPC corp? Or do you suggest holding corp hopscotch? "Ok everybody, ABC Logistics just got dec'd this week we're re-joining XYZ Partners." Personally that's just a bit obscure.

Whatever I'm sure CCP's db team won't mind the table bloat.

If you want combined hangers & wallets for corp use, then accept the risks that go with it. If you just want a banner to hang over your names that says you all belong to the same group & a corp chat, then sure, social corps that can't be decced can have that. But as soon as you get game function effects that can't be replicated already by communities, then you should be vulnerable to war decs.
However like I said earlier, give more meaning to a corp in high sec, and the problem will resolve itself. It's not wardecs that are the issue, it's lack of care about corp identity.
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-05-09 06:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You're complaining about noobs not sticking with the game because they are being 'exterminated' at the earliest opportunity.

I forget that extermination is synonymous with fair fight...


Face it, every complaint about wardecs, even yours, stems from the strong attacking the weak. What you don't understand is that eve was designed with the freedom to let that happen. It's not a failure or mistake when it does happen. Predators and prey is a pretty natural thing. It's inevitable in a game based on freedom.

But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.



Of course when the "sandbox" is loaded massively in ones favour, one would argue that.

It is always insightful, when someone uses the term "sandbox" it generally means exactly the opposite.

It is NOT sandbox play. There are tools. HS has hundreds of complex contradictory rules and tools. Some appallingly and ludicrously unbalanced.

The wardeccer corps are using them to the best of their ability and to their exclusive benefit.

One cannot blame you too much, no one said you HAD to show any self restraint, and wardeccer corps certainly haven't. If food pours endlessly down a chute, it's pretty amazing you haven't all gorged yourselves to death!

The entirety of EVE knows this, including wardeccers and their astroturfers, if you have a shred of honesty and self awareness.

Your self justification, and the same old tired cliches have lost their effect and impact.

You are using the pieces of glass and catshit, that have appeared in the sandbox, and making it a thoroughly a miserable experience for the majority of users entirely for your own benefit.

It is not killing people that is the problem, it is forcing rational and sane people to go to extreme lengths to avoid your absurdity, and making cooperation with others an irrational choice.

So we end up with new players being trained in such a way, they end up isolated and alone, until they wither away, unable to be reached out to, lost to EVE.

This is the real New Player experience, hardly surprising so few of us survive it to thrive in the game.

But I imagine that is the cue for cliche response 46# we didn't need those players anyway? They aren't "hard" enough for EVE! /s Roll
#28 - 2017-05-09 12:27:44 UTC
Benje en Divalone wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Not really. Eve is a niche game, it's not for everyone. It's designed as a pvp playground and its meant to be harsh.

Nothing wrong with being niche if the game is meeting CCP's financial goals. What I'm seeing suggests it's not.

How often do you see developers revise their tutorial missions? In my admittedly limited experience that doesn't happen unless they're having retention issues. It certainly makes the game a bit more approachable but I'm not convinced it'll be enough to swing the churn in a positive direction. Only time will tell who's right.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.

Custom chat channels are one thing. How do you manage wallets and hangar access if everybody is in an NPC corp? Or do you suggest holding corp hopscotch? "Ok everybody, ABC Logistics just got dec'd this week we're re-joining XYZ Partners." Personally that's just a bit obscure.

Whatever I'm sure CCP's db team won't mind the table bloat.


Yep, EVE grew every year until they nerfed wardecs and made pvp harder to get into. The reason the game stopped growing was because less players are getting into pvp (the best retainer of any game). Instead they are getting bored and quitting. If only they went back to their roots and stopped making the game safer. It'd turn around in a year.

Why do you think groups are entitled to a corp wallet? Or a hangar? If you have those things then you should be open to wardecs. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

Social corps, when they come, will be just that. No corp assets, no shared wallet. Just a chat channel, a killboard and a mailing list.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

#29 - 2017-05-09 12:58:16 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You're complaining about noobs not sticking with the game because they are being 'exterminated' at the earliest opportunity.

I forget that extermination is synonymous with fair fight...


Face it, every complaint about wardecs, even yours, stems from the strong attacking the weak. What you don't understand is that eve was designed with the freedom to let that happen. It's not a failure or mistake when it does happen. Predators and prey is a pretty natural thing. It's inevitable in a game based on freedom.

But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.



Of course when the "sandbox" is loaded massively in ones favour, one would argue that.

It is always insightful, when someone uses the term "sandbox" it generally means exactly the opposite.

It is NOT sandbox play. There are tools. HS has hundreds of complex contradictory rules and tools. Some appallingly and ludicrously unbalanced.

The wardeccer corps are using them to the best of their ability and to their exclusive benefit.

One cannot blame you too much, no one said you HAD to show any self restraint, and wardeccer corps certainly haven't. If food pours endlessly down a chute, it's pretty amazing you haven't all gorged yourselves to death!

The entirety of EVE knows this, including wardeccers and their astroturfers, if you have a shred of honesty and self awareness.

Your self justification, and the same old tired cliches have lost their effect and impact.

You are using the pieces of glass and catshit, that have appeared in the sandbox, and making it a thoroughly a miserable experience for the majority of users entirely for your own benefit.

It is not killing people that is the problem, it is forcing rational and sane people to go to extreme lengths to avoid your absurdity, and making cooperation with others an irrational choice.

So we end up with new players being trained in such a way, they end up isolated and alone, until they wither away, unable to be reached out to, lost to EVE.

This is the real New Player experience, hardly surprising so few of us survive it to thrive in the game.

But I imagine that is the cue for cliche response 46# we didn't need those players anyway? They aren't "hard" enough for EVE! /s Roll



Yeah you're so far off it's not even funny. i don't wardec people. Haven't been an aggressor in a dec in years.

I'm actually the guy who gets decced. Who gets ganked. Who gets afk cloaked. I'm the guy whos taking on new players and trying to teach them how to survive. Now check my stances on all those issues. I'm the one thats honest about this game and whats makes it different. EVE wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for its core playerbase. The people who joined this game BECAUSE it's harsh. That's why you see numbers thinning with every change that makes the game safer. Carebears always quit, always will as soon as the next shiny comes out (look at wow sub rates, watch them plummet when blizzard don't release new content for a while), but now what would be the core players are also leaving because the bar for getting into pvp keeps being raised and players are getting bored.

New players don't get trained to be isolationist. They don't get trained at all thanks to more recent changes. Players who dont know what they are doing are starting corps, inviting anyone and everyone, because its now safe to do that. Then they're not helping their members learn the game. These corps are taking players away from corps that could be more organised with better leadership. They are getting decced, or ganked, and then complain that its not fair, just like you.

What these players should do, and you too, is realise that this is exactly what the game is about. And it was doing just fine until ccp started listening to whiners like yourself. And it'd do just fine again if they gave that kind of freedom back to players.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-05-10 17:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Alderson Point wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You're complaining about noobs not sticking with the game because they are being 'exterminated' at the earliest opportunity.

I forget that extermination is synonymous with fair fight...


Face it, every complaint about wardecs, even yours, stems from the strong attacking the weak. What you don't understand is that eve was designed with the freedom to let that happen. It's not a failure or mistake when it does happen. Predators and prey is a pretty natural thing. It's inevitable in a game based on freedom.

But they can opt out of wardecs. At anytime. And hopefully social corps will be a thing as well.



Of course when the "sandbox" is loaded massively in ones favour, one would argue that.

It is always insightful, when someone uses the term "sandbox" it generally means exactly the opposite.

It is NOT sandbox play. There are tools. HS has hundreds of complex contradictory rules and tools. Some appallingly and ludicrously unbalanced.

The wardeccer corps are using them to the best of their ability and to their exclusive benefit.

One cannot blame you too much, no one said you HAD to show any self restraint, and wardeccer corps certainly haven't. If food pours endlessly down a chute, it's pretty amazing you haven't all gorged yourselves to death!

The entirety of EVE knows this, including wardeccers and their astroturfers, if you have a shred of honesty and self awareness.

Your self justification, and the same old tired cliches have lost their effect and impact.

You are using the pieces of glass and catshit, that have appeared in the sandbox, and making it a thoroughly a miserable experience for the majority of users entirely for your own benefit.

It is not killing people that is the problem, it is forcing rational and sane people to go to extreme lengths to avoid your absurdity, and making cooperation with others an irrational choice.

So we end up with new players being trained in such a way, they end up isolated and alone, until they wither away, unable to be reached out to, lost to EVE.

This is the real New Player experience, hardly surprising so few of us survive it to thrive in the game.

But I imagine that is the cue for cliche response 46# we didn't need those players anyway? They aren't "hard" enough for EVE! /s Roll



Yeah you're so far off it's not even funny. i don't wardec people. Haven't been an aggressor in a dec in years.

I'm actually the guy who gets decced. Who gets ganked. Who gets afk cloaked. I'm the guy whos taking on new players and trying to teach them how to survive. Now check my stances on all those issues. I'm the one thats honest about this game and whats makes it different. EVE wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for its core playerbase. The people who joined this game BECAUSE it's harsh. That's why you see numbers thinning with every change that makes the game safer. Carebears always quit, always will as soon as the next shiny comes out (look at wow sub rates, watch them plummet when blizzard don't release new content for a while), but now what would be the core players are also leaving because the bar for getting into pvp keeps being raised and players are getting bored.

New players don't get trained to be isolationist. They don't get trained at all thanks to more recent changes. Players who dont know what they are doing are starting corps, inviting anyone and everyone, because its now safe to do that. Then they're not helping their members learn the game. These corps are taking players away from corps that could be more organised with better leadership. They are getting decced, or ganked, and then complain that its not fair, just like you.

What these players should do, and you too, is realise that this is exactly what the game is about. And it was doing just fine until ccp started listening to whiners like yourself. And it'd do just fine again if they gave that kind of freedom back to players.


I apologise If I was mistaken in believing that you were a wardeccer. Naturally I drew that conclusion from reading all your other posts on the subject.

I also agree that most Corps still existing in HS are badly run, run by new players who haven't a clue, corps to farm kills for their wardeccing buddies, and bait and switch corps, to get people into Rental Nullsec to exploit them.

This is because no well run corp can currently survive, whilst retaining a sane leadership. So they don't.
Hence all that is left is dross.

I also question your assumption that players Join EvE because it is harsh, No one I have met in HS LS Null Or WH space since the beta days, (wormholes since they opened) claims to have.
It is only on the forums anyone claims that.
Admittedly I had a few weeks off here and there so they may have sneaked in when I wasn't watching.Roll or maybe it is only amongst the groups you play with? Hmmmm.Idea

Of course I may have been right all along and you are NOW attempting to be a caring neutral with the best interests of the game at heart. But on balance, It may have been correct to assume you actually are a wardeccer, and want to keep things as they are.

Who knows? Maybe it's your alt that is the Naughty one.
#31 - 2017-05-11 01:24:05 UTC
Let me put it another way: this game is here because of players that enjoy the freedom to be good or bad. Honorable or dishonourable. Lie, cheat, awox and steal or white knight.

Surely you've witnessed players that saw the crazy things eve players have done, the narratives driven by players and wanted to join in.

Because they are the players that kept this game alive. They are the content creators. Wardeccers included. But they got nerfed, which not only meant they couldn't create content, but their enemies couldn't create content trying to stop them.

I've seen a couple corps that would have likely fizzled out and broken up if it weren't for them being decced. The first time they even thought of working together and communicating inspired by their first genuine threat. I've seen many more corps cut their teeth in pvp using wardecs against miners or mission runners. I'm aware that many corps have broken up due to decs as well, but i honestly believe that such groups are made up of the 80% of players who leave anyways. Where as the players who dec them stay for years, evolving from hisec decs to lowsec, null and wh's. It may not have been pretty by other mmo standards, but it worked. People had fun and made friends by going out and ruining other people's day, the 'corner stone with which eve was made'.

That was until the entry level of wardecs was raised more than tenfold. Crimewatch made chars who gank unusable. Corps becoming so safe that idiots were able to prosper and obscure good corps.


Tldr,
Conflict is content.
Hard times encourage people to work together.
I'd rather lose 4 carebears who would quit after a month anyways and keep one wardeccer/ganker who plays for years.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Brotherhood of Spacers
#32 - 2017-05-11 02:01:35 UTC
Apologies for not responding in a while (various RL & IG activities takes my time away). I should also note that I am an avid PVPer, whose lived in NS for the past year and a half but I have very strong memories of my early HS days. I was particularly disheartened seeing so many of my HS corpmates quit the game due to the war deccers and have been trying to come up with a solution to increase player retention and desire for PVP being the ultimate goal.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The lack of incentive to fight for the defender is nothing to do with the wardec system.
It's to do with CCP's systematic nerfing of highsec structures, lack of parity for the upwell structures relative to nullsec making them not worth fighting for, and with an over proliferation of high sec stations also making assets in space not worth defending.
Change that and you will see larger high sec corps form that will fight tooth and nail over capsuleer claims to a system and over war decs.


I disagree with your assessment here. Structures may be used as a balance towards putting more risk towards the war-deccer but not the required incentive to balance the current system. To better address the issue, one must ask Why does one live in high-sec vs. Low/0.0/WH? The primary reason? Safety. The risk reward to live in the other regions must be there make it more desirable. You can't increase the value of HS structures to parity without dropping the desire to live in those regions. Doing that would undermine the desire for players to move into the more risky regions which IMO is an undesirable game change.

So based on that premise (whether you agree or not, please discuss) what do we know about most HS populations?
Group A: HS PVPers Mostly greifers & trolls (Merc. Corps / CODE etc.)[
Group B: Risk Averse PVE Players & NewBeans
Group C: Transiting LS/NS/WHers
Group D: Retired players / Traders - Unimportant

The issue is that Group A has a huge advantage over Group B in organization and experience. Group C who occasionally gets wardecced too, are far more interested in their local affairs than to ever bother organizing in HS to get involved.

With the invite system, Group B has the option to be reasonable organized (local standing fleets, intel channels/groups) to help defend against Group A. They can form relationships with Group C and potentially get them to join their more risky regions by creating those relationships.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
You get 24 hours to make friends before the dec starts.

If you get notice, so should aggressors.


The N+1 problem becomes a real issue for the attacker (how many friends can he really bring?), but this issue exists in all fights in all areas of PVP already where you never really know what your opponent can bring. It doesn't in HS war dec mechanics. The defender has a fixed number of members who can directly engage and "potentially" neutral logi. This is unfair intel towards the war-deccer and needs to change. You never know if the target is bait in most areas of PVP, so why should war deccers get that advantage of knowing fairly well most of their targets are not bait?

They should have to make a conscious decision on whether or not a target is worth killing before (or if) backup arrives.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Why can't you do that?


The issue, is organizing a bunch of bads (who typically live in HS) together to do something interesting like fight back. I did attempt such a thing, but most people who are already capable of decent PVP live in Low/Null/WH already.

By lowering the bar for PVP (you don't have to be war-decced, you can assist others who need help), to join you, you could potentially introduce PVP to individuals who would normally be super wary of any type of PVP because they might have the illusion of getting on an easy fight (hey its only 1 dude, lets kill him together!), probably in a poorly fit PVE ship. This increases the number of potential easy kills for war-deccers, and the potential to kill the war-deccer depending on the number of locals in the system or friends the person can muster (anti-WarDec channels similar to intel channels etc.).

Presently there is far too little risk for a War-deccer and too much for the defending corp. The balance needs to be adjusted.



Other quick responses:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Lolno. Congratulations on proposing a system where the gankers make bait corps and then bring in a dozen "neutral" alts to kill you.

I think you seriously overestimate the willingness of highsec residents to engage in PvP of any kind.


I'm not expecting most local dudes to actually win against the wardeccers. Rather they will likely DIAF with their poorly fit PVE ships lol. But the point is for them to gain the experience....

Also fleet invite option is only allowed FOR THE DEFENDING corp, not the aggressor. This does still pose some balance issues, but that should be further discussed.

But yes, willingness to fight in any region is a big issue, but lowering this bar to make them realize how fun it could be could totally change that. I've experienced just how many dudes (industry/PVE dudes) by lowering this bar through my local home defense fleets.
#33 - 2017-05-11 02:15:46 UTC
Jediseah Tophet wrote:
You never know if the target is bait in most areas of PVP, so why should war deccers get that advantage of knowing fairly well most of their targets are not bait?


Why are you assuming that defenders can't use bait? Your entire argument here is based on the idea that attackers are good at EVE, while defenders suck at EVE, and therefore defenders need to be buffed to make up for their inability to win. And that is not acceptable.

Quote:
The issue, is organizing a bunch of bads (who typically live in HS) together to do something interesting like fight back.


This is a feature, not a bug. People who are bad at EVE should be punished for their failures. If a corp is too terrible to organize and fight back then they should be left to die, just like the countless other failures that preceded them. Meanwhile the corps that are capable of organizing properly not only succeed in general, but benefit from the removal of their competition.

Quote:
Presently there is far too little risk for a War-deccer and too much for the defending corp. The balance needs to be adjusted.


And the best way to adjust it is for people to stop sucking at EVE. Game mechanics should not replace the need for player skill and effort, or remove the advantage of being better at EVE than the person you're trying to kill.
#34 - 2017-05-11 02:19:41 UTC
Jediseah Tophet wrote:
I'm not expecting most local dudes to actually win against the wardeccers. Rather they will likely DIAF with their poorly fit PVE ships lol. But the point is for them to gain the experience....


If all they're going to do is die then what's the point of your proposal? People in highsec will quickly learn that accepting a war invite is pointless suicide and stop accepting them, and then we're right back to where we are now.

Quote:
Also fleet invite option is only allowed FOR THE DEFENDING corp, not the aggressor.


I know, that's why I mentioned making bait corps. The gankers make an obnoxious "carebear" corp that does everything possible to provoke a war, and once you declare war on the bait corp you're suddenly a free target for everyone in the ganking group. And, best of all, you don't even know who your potential killer might be until they join the gank fleet and immediately kill you. Sure, targets that don't take the bait will require a conventional war dec, but I guarantee you that gankers will exploit this system for their own gain.
#35 - 2017-05-11 02:21:36 UTC
So you're admitting that the defenders are poor players doing themselves no favours but should have their hands held anyways?

No. The defenders already have wardec mechanics in their favour. If they are still fighting against overwhelming odds then they can move, drop corp or be evasive. This is not the end of the game, it's just another part of eve. There are always bigger fish and we all have to compromise sometimes. Goons recently got evicted from their homes but they plod on. You can too.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Vendetta Mercenary Group
#36 - 2017-05-11 13:46:49 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
If you want to hurt the merc corp that just decced you, you don't fight the merc corp that just decced you. The merc corp that just decced you has nothing in space worth fighting, and if you show up to fight, they just dock up.

You take the fight to the holding corp with all their citadels and POCOs, which gives them a reason to actually show up. Or you fleets ships out that they don't take very seriously.


Real mercs have no assets in space. And if you show up for a fight we usually beat the crap out of you :)
#37 - 2017-05-11 19:36:15 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
So you're admitting that the defenders are poor players doing themselves no favours but should have their hands held anyways?

No. The defenders already have wardec mechanics in their favour. If they are still fighting against overwhelming odds then they can move, drop corp or be evasive. This is not the end of the game, it's just another part of eve. There are always bigger fish and we all have to compromise sometimes. Goons recently got evicted from their homes but they plod on. You can too.

This is the fundamental problem with designing a competitive game. If you allow players to "be safer" by being weak, small, or putting up no defence, then players will make themselves weak, small and defenceless in order to exploit that free safety. While highsec is indeed full of new players, there are many more veteran players who either out of fear, lack of interest of direct player conflict, or as the result of a rational assessment of risk vs. reward, stay in highsec to do their gathering and industry. You can't just make them invulnerable or everyone will just make a highsec alt to do their ISK making in highsec, leaving no one in any of the other spaces except people looking for consensual PvP.

That design isn't a living world where we are competing for resources and power. It is essentially a purely consensual PvP game where no one loses anything but what they want to. In short, it isn't Eve, and it is why risk vs. reward must be respected. Players should be able to choose their level of risk, but the rewards need to be somewhat proportional to those risks or no one will ever leave the safest space in anything they haven't already written off.

Eve Online is a competitive game. That means poor and lazy play should result in loss, while superior play is rewarded. Yes, CCP needs to make a space for new players to get their feet, but that does not mean there needs to be a place where you are invulnerable to unwanted interactions with the other players, and certainly not one where veteran players can hang out indefinitely immune to the actions of the other players. The whole point of the game is that we are always open to unwanted interactions with the other players because: sandbox.

Player corps have additional risks over NPC corps but come with additional rewards. That is as it should be and likely always will be. At best, CCP can add social tools to allow players to interact with each other socially that do not come with these additional risks and rewards, but fundamentally we are all each others' content and that means sometimes we will have to retreat or withdraw when faced with a superior force, and sometimes means will be completely defeated and destroyed. That is completely intended and why wars have remained in the game for so long despite the whining and moaning of a large segment of the player base who don't think it should be possible for them to lose in competitive game that by definition has winners and losers.

I do agree though that station games are lame and the ability to snipe from safety with no commitment should be prevented by game mechanics, just as the ability to earn income with no risk is also lame and should not be possible. I am all for game mechanics that put all players, including wardeccers at risk and prevent them from just docking up whenever they feel outgunned. However, the idea in the OP is so over-the-top it would make wars near useless to settle disputes between equal sides. If anyone who dares to be an aggressor is forced to take on all of New Eden, wars become useful only to the largest groups in the game.
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