Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
 

Eve & Valkyrie E-Sports Game

Author
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1 - 2017-05-11 18:42:46 UTC
Two teams. 2 Supercarriers. 3,5 or 7 fighter pilots.

Defend the carrier. All regular fighters use Valkyrie with HOTAS controls in dogfight mode while Super carrier gives standard Eve effects, bonuses and can fight with Eve modules.

Fighters get destroyed? Pilot dies but wakes up in cloning bay with Carrier replacement fighters ready to deploy again.

Line of sight combat littered with WH AOE effects, asteroids, planets and moons all moving around to create terrain features in an arena style combat. Limited view of enemy maps based on eyes on, probes and celestial fields. Want to go hide in a gas cloud? You will take damage to yourself and suddenly a ship appears right on top of you!!

Fighters have limited fuel, weapons and hit points and must rearm, refuel and repair periodically at the carrier.

Find the enemies Super carrier!! DESTROY IT!! Win the battle for your team!Twisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

#2 - 2017-05-11 19:14:39 UTC
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#3 - 2017-05-11 19:41:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
wut?

Its a very simple sport version of capture the flag using both Eve and Eve Valkyrie ideology. Combining the "Battlestar Galactica" unleash the fighter hounds visual with dog fighting HOTAS fast paced twitch combat with the environment of Eve for the defense of the Supercarrier the fighters are launched from.

Ultimate goal of the game is to find and "sink" or destroy the opposing teams super carrier. Much like current and past naval carrier warfare has been based on, though generally it is find the Task Force rather than the lone carrier. In a format that promotes fast paced gaming currently used in e-sports usage combining both of Eves premiere flagship styles to create a very unique idea that CCP could capitalize upon in the rising e-sports arena.

Combining both standard computer and VR/HOTAS tech and interfaces going head to head in teams of 4, 6 or 8 players using Eve celestial features to incorporate terrain and visual disparities at a break neck twitch gaming speed for fast tournament style matches into a ground breaking visually stimulating dogfight combat to ensure total victory... HELLDEATH!! With the death of a glorious supercarrier in all its majestic explosive capacity. As ammo racks and spare fighters blow through the sides after the killing blow and the wreck spreads over hundreds of kilometers wide.

You know... fun.Twisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

#4 - 2017-05-12 09:30:21 UTC
Why is this in the eve forum and not the valkyrie forum?

Or do you want them to somehow combine the two games for this?
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2017-05-12 12:36:14 UTC
Fairly certain this would be impossible in eve.
Solitaire.
#6 - 2017-05-12 13:43:35 UTC
Valkyrie is a gimmick for vr, not a real game. And Eve doesnt need esports. Most of the big teams in esports aren't even good. Theyre just the people who can afford to fly around and go to tournaments. You show me a team of esports guys on TV and I'll show you 1000 people online at any moment who could stomp that team.
If we want something like that there should be a gladiatorial arena mechanic like a dueling region in high sec with leaderboards.
Like a ship graveyard system or something that's cordoned off by concord with big billboards so so you could watch what's going on inside from far away.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#7 - 2017-05-12 15:33:10 UTC
What I have always wanted was for CCP to start tournaments at the bigger gatherings first that would apply in some way to the e-sports leaderboards. Small entry fees, winner take all frigate battles, or bracket tournaments with payouts for placements.

Imo this format would rock the world in a very new and interesting way which would incorporate the dogfighting fighter style of Valkyrie as well as the world of Eve as a whole all in one way. There has been massive amounts of talk about arena battles in Eve, and though I can understand them, I do agree that an actual instanced arena pit isnt in Eves philosophical style of game play and I believe that something along these lines could be achieved by CCP to incorporate this into a very fun, very fast paced team challenge for arena/tournament style play that would achieve all of these things even without the need for VR itself.

The first person fighter view in eve as well as a few adjustments could actually make it quite possible to do so without much issues. The line of sight weapons systems are old code that used to be in the game, most of the terrain can be simply added like a mission pocket, and the supers, fighters, modules and tactics are possible, no local is already in game in whs and only limited visuals, the ability to control fighters with a HOTAS/keyboard style setup and the maps themselves would really have to be newly coded. All of the fighter stuff could be simply used from Valkyrie while the rest would simply be old and new things from within the Eve world.

Why is it here and not somewhere else? I dont post in the other forums and I simply wish CCP to look at the idea and consider it in the future.

As for the guy that says e-sports teams suck well when England comes to play Team Canada in rugby they generally send their B side and even then beat us handily. Canada is getting better at rugby, funding and player development is increasing and our 7s are world class on both mens and womens teams, yet still has a very far way to go. Does this mean that they shouldnt compete? Does this mean we should fold in our teams and just go play hockey instead?Roll

If for everyone that has ever said they could find someone that would stomp someone else I got a dollar Id be incredibly rich. If you can find them I would suggest that you go do so and sponsor them and take some of that money for yourself instead.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2017-05-12 15:41:01 UTC
...no, LOS weapons will not work in eve. no, terrain will not work in eve. No, arcade controlls will not work in a game with a 1hz server tick. Nor will flying first person and trying to click on a moving target.

Did you ever try to play a shooter with 1000ms ping? That's EVE's standard server tick.

How can one have separate maps in a game with no instancing?

How can three fighters kill a supercarrier? They have upwards of twenty million EHP you know.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#9 - 2017-05-12 16:05:11 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...no, LOS weapons will not work in eve. no, terrain will not work in eve. No, arcade controlls will not work in a game with a 1hz server tick. Nor will flying first person and trying to click on a moving target.

Did you ever try to play a shooter with 1000ms ping? That's EVE's standard server tick.

How can one have separate maps in a game with no instancing?

How can three fighters kill a supercarrier? They have upwards of twenty million EHP you know.

Im not asking for this to be on the Tranquility server, not by any means. Youre correct this wouldnt work in the normal Eve gameplay. This is why the title presents a hybrid of the two games using both unique features for a purely arena/tournament style game. Something that could be ported to a test server perhaps? So it isnt a standalone title and allowing practice to happen for everyone, seeing as Eve is free to use and there can be scripts to allow anyone to be able to fly and practice this way even in an Alpha mode just like many of the operation commands on SiSi currently.

So in no way would I want this integrated into normal Eve gameplay.

As for arcade controls. How does the WASD controls for Eve work in Eve then? How can you have first person controls? Also on a separate server it wouldnt be impossible to do so.

The point of this is to show the world Eve and the Eve universe is something marketable in this realm. Satisfying both the twitch gamers and the standard slower Eve strategists while providing arena style tournament combat that can actually be played anywhere, anytime to put Eve onto the e-sports leaderboard page. Frankly I want to see an Eve title on that list someday.Twisted Then I want to kick those pansy pantiewastes asses all over the map and show them a good Eve butt whoopin!!Lol

I realize that I likely wont be there, that is fine, but Id love Eve to be one day.Blink

Oh and as a sidenote. In 2003 way back when we had LOS weapons and splash damage AOE missiles. Got concorded for that shooting a war target sitting tucked into a station once.Ugh

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2017-05-12 16:14:21 UTC
You are describing an entirely different game with entirely different mechanics on an entirely different server requiring entirely different hardware.

That's a standalone title. One of those moba things all the kids play these days, if I'm reading your descriptions right.

I'd really rather CCP not waste a shitload of resources on a doomed side project again. Did you learn nothing from v:tm and dust?
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#11 - 2017-05-12 19:36:23 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
You are describing an entirely different game with entirely different mechanics on an entirely different server requiring entirely different hardware.

That's a standalone title. One of those moba things all the kids play these days, if I'm reading your descriptions right.

I'd really rather CCP not waste a shitload of resources on a doomed side project again. Did you learn nothing from v:tm and dust?

Actually no its not. Its a facilitation of tournament play using ALL of CCPs IP it already has in a new and different way with the same ideology; super carrier and fighter warfare, we already currently have in Eve and Valkyrie.

So no youre not reading it right.Big smile

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2017-05-12 22:31:18 UTC
It shares no mechanics with eve. it shares no server hardware with eve. It requires extra peripherals to play, which eve does not. It is different software to eve.


Yes, it is in the same IP. That is the only thing it has in common with what we are playing right now.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#13 - 2017-05-12 23:20:32 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
It shares no mechanics with eve. it shares no server hardware with eve. It requires extra peripherals to play, which eve does not. It is different software to eve.


Yes, it is in the same IP. That is the only thing it has in common with what we are playing right now.

Mechanics? Atm one person controls multiple fighters from a super. All you are doing is first person POV "frigate" combat in a "fighter". LOS mechanics is old code, as is all the 'terrain'; WH effects limited to smaller areas than system wide to create pockets of bonuses or nerfs, asteroid clusters, gas clouds and other nebula debris to limit visual range and sensors, wrecks and other mission LCO, planets and moons to play cat and mouse with, weapons would need to be fixed or forward firing even guided missiles, Super mechanics and module selection remains the same which gives the super defensive and offensive firepower in a limited range sphere, MJD, AB and MWDs for super mobility that is much slower than the fighters themselves.

Extra peripherals yes though you can technically do it with WASD, keyboard and mouse, the ability for even the cheapest HOTAS setups, under $100, to gain a considerable advantage in this area isnt overlooked. And allows better and finer controls anyway. I can see the resistance though. All keyboard keys can be mapped to HOTAS setups. I have an X51 Rhino and there are a lot of options. Cheaper Saiteks still have a lot of hats, switches and buttons all programmable for people that WANT to do this, yet it can all be done on a keyboard.

The idea isnt a full on Valkyrie setup but using the ideology of it. The first person POV that so few use. The ability to pan around slightly or have a higher field of view would be needed for situational awareness. The gunnery or missiles, if they work now visually and mathematically on Eves hardware should still work in this environment. In fact the idea of trigger press would equate to activating guns and would literally just be 1sec burst fire as long as it is pressed or held. So that damage is accounted for within the ship sphere plus the damage, modifiers, range, etc. This gives a hit/not hit % like we have now just modified for the damage reticule cone instead of tracking, optimal, falloff formulas we have now. Same with unguided or guided missiles would use the same target speed/sig radius calculations to apply damage.

Yes it would be "slower" yet not considerably so imo. It is doable from this perspective. It will NOT mimic an AAA title shooter but then itsnot supposed to. But it would incorporate teh speed and slash style dogfighting in first person POV with the idea that the fighters periodically need to land, refuel, repair and rearm or die in space. Additional fighters if the fighter and pilot die, with the clone bay of the super being the spawning point for a death and reship until all fighters in the bay are exhausted or the super itself dies.

Yes hit points would have to be adjusted but this isnt a huge issue imo as either hps or raw dps of the super and the "fighters" would need to be tweaked to maintain games of interesting length and difficulty. If systems like Thera, aka huge, can be made so can smaller systems one can jump to, these would be the maps themselves with random spawn points. They would look more like one big grid with all sorts of celestials within them. More than there are now with the effects and limitations. This map would be the biggest balance issue for range of effects as well as how much "clutter" versus load time as loading such a grid would take quite a bit of time imo due to what is in it.

The idea of putting these systems onto a test server would allow for this to be a thing but not on TQ and allow tweaks and other things to remain live there without too much issue. The idea of 10 or so systems is feasible and more can be added or changed depending on game length or difficulty. It would also means any wins or losses wouldnt interfere on TQ or on killboards as killmails on the test servers arent postable. Queues and overall wins and losses would be easy to tally, even out of game for something like this though I wouldnt worry about that in the beginning.

CCP brought first person POV into the game, the idea of fighter combat and manning fighters has been around for ages and the tactical and strategic idea of hunting enemy carriers is a normal part of gameplay so let something come of it.

So no I believe that all of this can be achieved decently with off the shelf Eve parts so to speak.Blink

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

#14 - 2017-05-13 00:52:20 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:

Extra peripherals yes though you can technically do it with WASD, keyboard and mouse, the ability for even the cheapest HOTAS setups, under $100, to gain a considerable advantage in this area isnt overlooked. And allows better and finer controls anyway. I can see the resistance though. All keyboard keys can be mapped to HOTAS setups. I have an X51 Rhino and there are a lot of options. Cheaper Saiteks still have a lot of hats, switches and buttons all programmable for people that WANT to do this, yet it can all be done on a keyboard.

The idea isnt a full on Valkyrie setup but using the ideology of it. The first person POV that so few use. The ability to pan around slightly or have a higher field of view would be needed for situational awareness. The gunnery or missiles, if they work now visually and mathematically on Eves hardware should still work in this environment. In fact the idea of trigger press would equate to activating guns and would literally just be 1sec burst fire as long as it is pressed or held. So that damage is accounted for within the ship sphere plus the damage, modifiers, range, etc. This gives a hit/not hit % like we have now just modified for the damage reticule cone instead of tracking, optimal, falloff formulas we have now. Same with unguided or guided missiles would use the same target speed/sig radius calculations to apply damage.


Uhhh, do you have any idea at all how damage or hits are calculated in eve? You're suggesting to completely rewrite EVE's damage detection system. There is no "cone" or "sphere", its a simple mathematical formula. That's the only reason EVE is even able to function at all in large battles; there is no area or collision detection of any sort involved.

Besides, server ticks are so low that any sort of piloting on EVE's hardware is going to be absolute rubbish, along with the fact that you'll have to re-work bumping to somehow do damage.

Like, I can kinda see if you wanted to add a new mode to Valkyrie, where one person gave orders to his squad of fighters from a supercarrier. That could work, you see, because Valkyrie is, structurally, completely unrelated to eve in every single imaginable way, and there, damage is calculated with raycasts and collisions, bumping isnt the same as it is in eve, server ticks are fast enough for an enjoyable experience, etc.

But don't try to bring any sort of integration with the actual EVE game, because it is 100% impossible due to technical limitations. Sorry.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#15 - 2017-05-13 01:27:59 UTC
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:


Uhhh, do you have any idea at all how damage or hits are calculated in eve? You're suggesting to completely rewrite EVE's damage detection system. There is no "cone" or "sphere", its a simple mathematical formula. That's the only reason EVE is even able to function at all in large battles; there is no area or collision detection of any sort involved.

Besides, server ticks are so low that any sort of piloting on EVE's hardware is going to be absolute rubbish, along with the fact that you'll have to re-work bumping to somehow do damage.

Like, I can kinda see if you wanted to add a new mode to Valkyrie, where one person gave orders to his squad of fighters from a supercarrier. That could work, you see, because Valkyrie is, structurally, completely unrelated to eve in every single imaginable way, and there, damage is calculated with raycasts and collisions, bumping isnt the same as it is in eve, server ticks are fast enough for an enjoyable experience, etc.

But don't try to bring any sort of integration with the actual EVE game, because it is 100% impossible due to technical limitations. Sorry.

Yes I do know how they are calculated and the only variation is the cone or target reticule area, with the same mathematical formulas applied. Anything within the reticule, applying the same formulas for optimal, falloff, damage mods and hit quality do hp damage if the button is pressed within that server tick. It is a slight variation of the existing code you are correct but not a significant one, it is only applied if within a certain cone/reticule area and only if the targets hit box sphere is within this at the same time.

If the server ticks allow for manual piloting now why is this such an issue? Gun activation/button/mouse press on server tick, with the target hit box within the forward targeting reticule or the larger missile reticule equals a "hit" to some degree with the standard formula for dps, hit quality, optimal and fall off applying.

Why would bumping need to do damage? Lore can be that shields take the brunt of the force and simply repel the enemy ship with current bumping formulas applied regarding mass and speed.

The vast majority of Eve is client side visually correct? The rest is math. With only a few ships to calculate I am most certainly sure that Eves hardware can handle the positions and fire of 8, 12 and 16 ships along with any celestial data, modifiers and LOS issues. This isnt a 2000 on 2000 battle on grid here.

The difference with the current Eve gameplay is that it is additional players actively piloting effectively frigates that are attached to the supercarrier that are launched from the super itself with full fighter effects, weapons and such. Each Fighter type would be a fully flyable ship with only 2 weapons and 1 mode, or 2 modes ( though a weapon should be added to the Support Fighters). The gameplay I envision is more in the cat and mouse usage of the celestials and effects on the playing grid that would limit field of view, range, speed and modify weapons and strategy. While the fighters themselves are limited in weapons, range and ability like a real life aircraft launched from an aircraft carrier they act the same as scouts, dps, tackle or heavy fighter bombers which was imo their intended role.

The only thing I do wonder about are the server ticks though I do not believe that manual piloting in first person POV is super adverse in Eve as it stands. The issue would be the dynamic speeds of engagement. Too fast and you are correct that 1hz couldnt be sufficient for anything, too slow and its sluggish and not compelling, engaging or nail biting enough. Jumping from first person to tactical cameras would make for interesting ability and gameplay but the tac overlay would severely hamper if not totally remove accurate firing. But tell me this, if you had two frigates in first person POV how hard would it be to keep the other frigate in the target reticule with only WASD commands? This would be the limiting factor for enjoyment.

I came to Eve from Falcon 4.0. I was a regular on the FrugalsWorld.com forums. Falcon and all things dogfighting have always been my joy for many years. Valkyrie appealed to me at first when I heard about it right up until the VR aspect. Motion sickness or a clunky headset isnt my idea of fun. I ahve been thinking of a way to incorporate this dogfight style into Eve for years and the Supercarrier and fighters aspect is the team oriented way to go with it if you ever want an arena/tournament setting imo, not because the AT or any other Eve tournament is lacking for me, I participated in one with EXA Nation way back when ET was first created and I loved it, yet for the mainstream gaming community it does leave a bit to be desired for the fast paced action aspect. What I want is for Eve to get into the E-sports arena somehow. To make tournaments for fees and prizes in the bigger gatherings with entry fees and pay outs that we can show the world we belong up on the forefront of e-sports and something that would make Eve the greatness I already know it is.

I think this has a lot of possibilities in that area. I dont care if people hate it. I care if people read it and think about it. I dont care if it wont be the way to do it in the end, but that people might think about it to make something there.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

#16 - 2017-05-13 12:43:07 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:

Yes I do know how they are calculated and the only variation is the cone or target reticule area, with the same mathematical formulas applied. Anything within the reticule, applying the same formulas for optimal, falloff, damage mods and hit quality do hp damage if the button is pressed within that server tick. It is a slight variation of the existing code you are correct but not a significant one, it is only applied if within a certain cone/reticule area and only if the targets hit box sphere is within this at the same time.


That's not how it works. You can't just "apply within a certain cone/reticule area". That means you're now checking for hit detection, which is a whole huge load more of server work. You'll have to completely re-write EVE's damage detection code. Especially since we're talking about CCP here, they're the kings of coding things so obscurely that changing one tiny mechanic on the other side of the universe shuts everything down.

Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
If the server ticks allow for manual piloting now why is this such an issue?


Go out and manually pilot a ship right now. Do it. Then compare your experience to say, something like Elite Dangerous. Now tell me that there's no issues and the server tick rate is just fine.

Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
The vast majority of Eve is client side visually correct? The rest is math.


I can ram my ship into a large asteroid, and then fire my lasers THROUGH the asteroid and hit a ship on the other side. How on earth is that "visually correct".

Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
I came to Eve from Falcon 4.0. I was a regular on the FrugalsWorld.com forums. Falcon and all things dogfighting have always been my joy for many years.


Irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant. If you want to change the basic mechanics of eve such as damage detection, please first have a rudimentary understanding(at the very least) of how these mechanics work and why, within EVE itself. Other games have no validity here, other games are not EVE.

Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
I think this has a lot of possibilities in that area. I dont care if people hate it. I care if people read it and think about it.


Nobody hates your idea, we're just telling you that it is not feasible with EVE's engine, server, and mechanics. Valkyrie is a different story.
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