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Goonswarm Federation
#321 - 2017-05-19 00:52:51 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Hogwash.


Sometimes, man, you just got a really dirty hog.
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2017-05-19 09:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Arrendis wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Hogwash.


Sometimes, man, you just got a really dirty hog.


With your famed capacity for word-play, I am not sure if the levels of meaning in this quip were intended, but I suspect they were.

There is a significant difference between Karsoth and Blaque which grants both power and responsibility to the people and Senate of the Federation. We know Mentas Blaque's character. He is a 'really dirty hog'.

If, despite this knowledge, his activities overall bring benefit the the Federation, one can see why rolling in the mud with the hog might, for a time, be acceptable - mud protects delicate skin from the burning sun, for example. But (to labour the metaphor mercilessly) there comes a moment - fairly rapidly - when you either wash off your own mud and that of the hog, or discover that the hog has been enjoying this all the time and you are way too deep in the sh*t.

Hmm. I think I'd better leave this stuff to Arrendis.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Villore Accords
#323 - 2017-05-19 11:04:43 UTC
New on the Federal Frontier https://thefederalfrontier.com/2017/05/19/intaki-the-case-for-independence/

Hungover and tetchy after the post-Kyonoke Inquest party, I had a chat* with political agitator Bataav of the Intaki Liberation Front who has some convincing arguments and frankly made me look at things in a new light.

*(tried to pick a fight with.)
#324 - 2017-05-19 20:09:37 UTC
Saint Michaels Soul wrote:
Intaki Independence – A chat with Bataav
Another excellent if wrongheaded article.

Only in the Federation can one see such a diversity of opinion celebrated in 'print'.

Bataav wrote:
To answer your question, a part of why I support independence for the Intaki is to prevent the Intaki culture being completely lost to a vague, all assimilating Federal identity that has no depth.

Gods above, he is still at it. One must admire your persistence. ‘A Federal identity…’ Isn’t that the point of a multi-ethnic society? Leaving your insult to the ‘vagueness of our shallow culture’, aside. The Intaki are fully integrated into every level of the Federation. They have had as great an effect upon it, as it has upon them. I think you give too little credit to the resilience and charm of the very ‘Intake culture’ your actions seek to limit. The Federation is strengthened by the Intaki, the Intaki are strengthened by the Federation.

Bataav wrote:
It’s important to understand that this isn’t ethnic nationalism. It’s not some Gallente-hating movement. Not like Intaki Pure was, with their plan to kick out everyone who’s not Intaki, and drag anyone who is, away from the lives they have built, back to Placid.
So you wish to leave the Federation to save Intaki culture, but it isn’t an ethnic movement. Can both of those things be simultaneously true? Can you separate one from the other, the ethnicity from the culture? Perhaps what your purposing isn’t ‘Gallente-hating’, but it is very much xenophobic and very 'un-Intaki'. Those ‘non-Intaki’ who remain, I suppose will be expected to assimilate into your nonethnic Intakicentric society?
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#325 - 2017-05-20 04:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bataav
James Syagrius wrote:
Only in the Federation can one see such a diversity of opinion celebrated in 'print'.
Nonsense.

Are you suggesting that the rich and varied tapestry of the Matari tribes, is not reflected in their media? That the nuances between the megacorporations have no impact on the news broadcasts of each within the State? That the Empire press is devoid of any theological debate and opinion?

James Syagrius wrote:
‘A Federal identity…’ Isn’t that the point of a multi-ethnic society?
Not necessarily, no. Federalism is primarily a political system, though for the Gallente the term does now have cultural importance. However, both the Republic and State, for example, show us that multi-ethnic societies can succeed under different models.

James Syagrius wrote:
So you wish to leave the Federation to save Intaki culture, but it isn’t an ethnic movement. Can both of those things be simultaneously true? Can you separate one from the other, the ethnicity from the culture?
There are differences, yes. Allow me to explain.

We agree that the Federation is diverse. A Federal citizen who is of Matari Brutor heritage is racially distinct from another who is Jin-Mei, or Mannar. But race is only part of what constitutes ethnicity.

In contrast to groups that organise themselves by voluntary association, for example a Federal citizen or a capsuleer joining the ranks of a null-sec power bloc, ethnicity is defined by charactaristics that are either impossible to change, such as skin colour, or very difficult to change, such as primary language. A group of people sharing a characteristic that is impossible, or very difficult to change, will define themselves as ethnic in contrast to other ethnic groups, or a dominant group that does not identify itself in ethnic terms.

This idea of self identification is fluid, and can change over time and yes, as I acknowledged in the interview, there are many Intaki now identify as "Gallente", a label once claimed by some who self-identified as disctinct from the others they met as they began to spread across the stars.

Now dominant, the Gallente have found themselves content to set aside their ethnic label, which has since become so interchangeable with "Federal" to the point that some debate whether "Gallente" has any meaningful value any more.

If three individuals of Intaki, or Khanid, or Vherokior heritage settle in the Federation, live as neighbours and call themselves "Gallente", then there are no common ethnic characteristics, there is no common language, no common history shared between them.

Federal culture is synonymous with personal freedom of expression and recreational excess, but these are not qualities that are comparible with the depth that exists within Amarr theology, Jin-Mei caste society, or Matari tribalism.

James Syagrius wrote:
Leaving your insult to the ‘vagueness of our shallow culture’, aside. The Intaki are fully integrated into every level of the Federation.
James, I empathise if the argument causes offense, but I find myself in agreement with a lot of the opening points made in the discussion I refer to above.

I cannot help but wonder if the discomfort felt is more a reaction to the cultural cost paid by the ethnic-Gallente in exchange for the Federal vision.

And finally yes, I acknowledge that at first glance it does seem paradoxical to say that we are not championing ethnic nationalism, while at the same time seeking to preserve Intaki culture.

However this is not the case. It is not ethnic nationalism because being Intaki is separate and distinct from the political movement. Those of us within the independence movement with Intaki heritage, such as myself, are proud of that, and yes we would seek to preserve that rather than lose it forever to Federal ambiguity. However, The Intaki Liberation Front is proud to include non-Intaki capsuleers and baseliners alike. Indeed our Isha-Sainika identifies as ethnic-Gallente.

There is no xenophobia here, nor is our position "un-Intaki".

Ida teaches us that life is a path, but we must each walk it ourselves.

We would simply seek to take a different route to that of the Gallente Federation, moving forwards with the understanding that any expectations of cultural assimilation are inappropriate.
#326 - 2017-05-20 11:11:15 UTC
There's no danger of Intaki culture being lost. You mentioned the Jin-Mei but it's obvious you don't actually know anything about them or how their cultural integrity is maintained. You mention the Matari but the way you express your concerns belittles the real experience of cultural destruction that the Matari have faced.
#327 - 2017-05-20 20:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Bataav.

At first, I thought to answer your comments individually, but I think doing so would delude the purpose of this thread. You have indeed lived up to the title ‘The secessionists silver tongued devil’.

I know you, and we have been acquainted for some time. You know that I have more than a transitory interest in Intaki. Indeed, the same person who attempted to introduce me to the concepts of Ida was the same person who warned me of your cleverness to dissemble.

What you are purposing would diminish both the Federation and the Intaki. I understand your fear but disagree with your solution, yet I can respect you and your opinion, as I appreciate you respecting mine. So let me say if one day the ‘Intaki’ in whole or in part, choose to leave the Federal Union, within the structures established in treaty law, they will have no better confederate than myself.

You mentioned that the Gallente have subsumed their culture to promote a Federal identity. Of course, they have, one must give to gain, and goodness what 'we' have gained. I am Gallente. My father was Gallentean, my mother Amarrian, my wife Ni Kunni, my son… died being a Gallente. Many bloods, one ideal.

What you see as weakness is a strength, what you see as a denuding of culture is actually its progression. To grow one must change. Mammal taught me enough about Ida, to know that one doesn’t become complete through separations but understanding and accommodation.

While I know you to be one of the most intelligent and insightful persons I have ever had the privilege to oppose. It gives me no pleasure to say your comments betray a profound ignorance of what it means to be ‘Gallente’, and I find many of your comments in this regard stunningly stereotypical.

Be well Bataav.
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#328 - 2017-05-20 22:11:40 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
You mentioned the Jin-Mei but it's obvious you don't actually know anything about them or how their cultural integrity is maintained.
Your powers of assumption are impressive.

Other than two very brief mentions in my response to James, I have given no indication of how well read I may or may not be on Jin-Mei culture.

As it happens, a longstanding friendship with a fellow IPI Director, who happens to be Jin-Mei, has had an influence on me, and I've made a conscious effort to educate myself.

Last year I enjoyed following Xanxing's efforts in Lirsautton, and the close parallels that were evident to the early work of the ILF in the Intaki system almost ten years ago.
Villore Accords
#329 - 2017-05-21 22:50:25 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
There's no danger of Intaki culture being lost. You mentioned the Jin-Mei but it's obvious you don't actually know anything about them or how their cultural integrity is maintained. You mention the Matari but the way you express your concerns belittles the real experience of cultural destruction that the Matari have faced.


Speaking as a Jin-Mei myself I can support this statement in saying that our cultural integrity is alive and well. Of course the Lirsautton system of today doesn't compare to the solar system which it once was - it doesn't even retain it's old name which my people have given up to integrate within the Federation. The iconic Quafe company has its headquarters on our homeworld and the influence of Gallente culture is everywhere, but does that make us Jin-Mei Gallente? No, but it does make us Federation Citizens.

We still live and govern our society by traditional ways and we retain much of our lifestyle and values from times long before we encountered the first spacefaring civilisations, and the Federation actually empowers us to do so. In all honesty I don't see why the same couldn't be the case for the Intaki. As others have rightly pointed out, many Intaki live fully integrated into the Gallente Federation yet still retain their identity.
#330 - 2017-05-21 23:07:40 UTC
As you would know Jueshi Raimo, but as others reading the topic might not know, no one asked the Jin-Mei to give up those names. It was something the Jin-Mei volunteered to do as a gesture of commitment.
(Many people who were born in Lirsautton still call it and its planets by their Ji names. I wasn't born there and I use the Ji names every day.)
Villore Accords
#331 - 2017-05-22 05:53:11 UTC
Of course, after all those are our names for those planets and our sun. The Gallente just kept mispronouncing them in confusing ways so the current solution made communication smoother.

We do have to acknowledge though that the Intaki have felt the repression of the ultranationalists in the past harder than we have, and some historical wariness can arise from that.
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