Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Mining- Why it needs to be saved, and how to do it

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#101 - 2012-01-25 12:39:40 UTC
The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.

Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.

I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences.
Panic Attack.
#102 - 2012-01-25 13:13:52 UTC
I think a good boost to mining would be to have scan sites with a,b,c ores in to give the odd miner a good boost to their income. not a huge field mind you.

Mal: "If anyone gets nosy, just...you know... shoot 'em. "

Zoe: "Shoot 'em?"

Mal: "Politely."

Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#103 - 2012-01-25 13:51:56 UTC
Kaylyis wrote:

Put in a code to monitor whether another program (besides windows or whatever) is interacting with the client directly and flag the character. have CCP manually check the flags. Not a scan program that says "this person's using X programs LAWL!" a program that basically tells when another program is directly accessing the player side client. Before you ***** about legality, it's pretty much how blizz caught the early hacks in WoW like the speederbot.



Aye, from what CCP Creegs has been telling bots who insert code into the client are easier to pick up on because they alter files and what not.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

#104 - 2012-01-25 14:10:24 UTC
You've made a well constructed argument for a change to the area of the game that doesn't directly effect you..... you're playingthe forum wrong.

You're supposed to whinne heavily about something you think will hugely benefit you but in actual fact will scew the game for everyone.

That said, I really like your ideas.
I was all set for a "GAH JUST BUFFING ORES WILL JUST LEAD TO THE SAME RESULTS!!" but you've actually thought this out.

+1
Equinox Rising
#105 - 2012-01-25 14:28:20 UTC
Great Idea! im not a Miner but i do feel sorry for them as a PVP'er i require their efforts! :D
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2012-01-25 14:30:58 UTC
+1

good ideas, sounds nice....
...but i think pew-pew/miner ganking is more important to ccp and the csm -.-

and yeah i hate bots *arrr*
#107 - 2012-01-25 14:51:17 UTC
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:
The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.

Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.

I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences.


All of these are reasons why you don't mine alone (if these changes were to go into effect, that is). These changes seem tailored to encourage mining ops, which is exactly what mining should be in lower sec space.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 

#108 - 2012-01-25 15:08:09 UTC
A lot of great ideas here. A+

However I've been mining 7+ years its all I do and all I want to do (roids are evil) and have no reward to show for it.

I can still only mine as much as someone about 7 months old. Where is my reward for time served like PVP-ers get with ever increasing ships and skills?

To me it seems inherently unfair that mining basically "Ends Game" at the 7-12 month mark.

No idea how to fix it but I do believe it needs fixing.

Amphetimines are your friend.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/T'Laar_Bok

#109 - 2012-01-25 15:18:24 UTC
mullet nugget wrote:
these are some really good ideas. however mining has been improved several times since the beginning. orcas, ore compression, etc.

that being said, the bots are THE main problem. it's f'ing ridiculous how lenient CCP is on these people. it's like they are more concerned with collecting the botter's monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun.


Not ridiculous at all, from CCP's pov they're just subscribers.
#110 - 2012-01-25 15:27:06 UTC
Yeah, I like most ideas. Mining is awesome in theory (building stuff from nothing) but in practice industry just revolves around buying cheap minerals and have some spreadsheets tell what you need to click in your industry window.

I like the visual mining thing best. Perpetuum has a similar system, check it out:

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4788/perpetuum0035.png
#111 - 2012-01-25 15:43:05 UTC
J Kunjeh wrote:
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:
The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.

Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.

I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences.


All of these are reasons why you don't mine alone (if these changes were to go into effect, that is). These changes seem tailored to encourage mining ops, which is exactly what mining should be in lower sec space.



That would force me to stay in high sec since most alliances are dead at the time I'm on, and my time is limited with rl work. Guess I could just switch to ganking....
#112 - 2012-01-25 16:04:07 UTC
I think this is a great idea, but there is an issue with displaying the different ores that give different yields.

The database.

The way the inventory works is going to cause an issue. Yes, you can have 2 items with the same name but different item IDs in the database, this isn't a problem.

For example (no idea how the eve database is actually implemented) here is a Standard Veldspar database entry

Item ID: 0001 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 100

If you have a stack of 10 Veldspar in you inventory you have an entry like

Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10

where it looks up the Item ID to tell you its Veldspar.

Now you have another item with the same name, different ID, eg slag veldspar

Item ID: 0002 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 1

Then you have a stack of 10 of each in your inventory

Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10
Item ID: 0002 Quantity: 10

It now looks like 2 seperate stacks of veldspar, but they will not stack together.
This will immediatley tell you that something is different between them, and a quick refine will tell you what. This could cause an issue where complex bots can work out good ore anyway, or atleast it makes for an untidy inventory where you arent sure what you have.
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-01-25 16:19:36 UTC
Master Ventris wrote:
I think this is a great idea, but there is an issue with displaying the different ores that give different yields.

The database.

The way the inventory works is going to cause an issue. Yes, you can have 2 items with the same name but different item IDs in the database, this isn't a problem.

For example (no idea how the eve database is actually implemented) here is a Standard Veldspar database entry

Item ID: 0001 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 100

If you have a stack of 10 Veldspar in you inventory you have an entry like

Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10

where it looks up the Item ID to tell you its Veldspar.

Now you have another item with the same name, different ID, eg slag veldspar

Item ID: 0002 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 1

Then you have a stack of 10 of each in your inventory

Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10
Item ID: 0002 Quantity: 10

It now looks like 2 seperate stacks of veldspar, but they will not stack together.
This will immediatley tell you that something is different between them, and a quick refine will tell you what. This could cause an issue where complex bots can work out good ore anyway, or atleast it makes for an untidy inventory where you arent sure what you have.


That kind of system actually seems like a great idea to counter bots since some of the bots are OCR-based programs (which are hard to find). But like it was said before, complex bots could simply activate the survey scanner to check for composition. In this case, it's best to just remove the scanner's ability to tell which roid has become nothing but slag so that the miners are forced to mine the whole thing because they are not sure as to which is slag and which is not. On top of that, I would recommend randomizing the level of slag as well.

Adapt or Die

#114 - 2012-01-25 16:21:26 UTC
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:
J Kunjeh wrote:
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:
The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.

Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.

I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences.


All of these are reasons why you don't mine alone (if these changes were to go into effect, that is). These changes seem tailored to encourage mining ops, which is exactly what mining should be in lower sec space.



That would force me to stay in high sec since most alliances are dead at the time I'm on, and my time is limited with rl work. Guess I could just switch to ganking....


Notice that I said "in lower sec space". Mining alone would still be a viable, if less lucrative, option in HS.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 

#115 - 2012-01-25 16:24:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
I have my own ideas on how to save it and the only thing it didnt involve was actual visual spin rates. Either way thoughtful and idea spurring.

My spin on the topic just this post alone for now.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=25141#post25141

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

#116 - 2012-01-25 17:50:36 UTC
CCP, read this thread and make it happen.

Thanks.
Pandemic Horde
#117 - 2012-01-26 00:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arian Blade
Hi there, Just a response to a very interesting thread, I like a lot of the ideas expressed, like officer spawn equivalents and a more interactive mining process.

Initially I really liked the "captcha" style "visual queue" dynamic but then that evil little part of my brain that over analyses everything kicked in (I have worked in useability). Whatever is used to differentiate 'roids and there yields would have to be robust enough to be understandable regardless of graphics settings, this in itself may not be difficult but then I thought about flaws and workarounds inherent to "captcha" and other visual media.

"Captcha" has an audio option as unfortunately many people have visual impairments to differing degrees. I am unsure as to the veracity of statistics but I am seeing stats of 6-8% of the male population suffering red/green colour blindness as just one example. This means that any visual recognition system risks effecting an amount of the user base if not implemented in a sympathetic manner (I am looking at this as effecting the "vaining idea").
Please dont take this as an attack on the idea as I personally really like it and support any idea that makes more aspects of this game fun as at the end of the day thats what games are for and different people play in this sandbox in different ways.

Okay so now I put my potential spanner in the works maybe I should try to add something to the mix hmmm.... okay how about this.....

Mining continues as now but with the rotational idea maybe denoting asteroid density (showing potential mineral content maybe) but how about once you select your asteroid some sort of mini game style thing happens? possibilties could be...

Idea 1, copying is the sincerest flattery...

Mass effect 2 style probing mini game using a audio/ visual queue as you hover over a asteroid representation to find the best areas of the asteroid to hit with your mining lasers. if you choose poorly (or not at all in the case of afk miners) you get a poorer yield (mining skills could improve the accuracy of the audio/ visual queue or the resolution you could scan at maybe). You could also have the rare "ultra dense" drops show as a special anolomoly on this that you may miss if you do not check thoroughly) If you have not played mass effect 2 there are loads of vids on youtube of the probing mechanic but my forum foo is weak and I cant make a working linky. Sad

Idea 2, use a similar mechanic already in place....

How about the "heat map" from PI also becomes audio and is adapted to be used on asteroids to again show relative potential yield areas with the same "if you choose poorly (or not at all in the case of afk miners) you get a poorer yield" mechanism I mentioned above. Obviously the visual heat map will need to be robust enough or the colour scale changeable to allow for visual impairment. Also as with PI you could simulate resource depletion so it rewards people interacting more and finding the best mining laser site at any given time. Skills can effect the audio/visual representation in a way similar to PI and through properly exploring the asteroids you may find the "super duper dense officer mining equivalent" that an afk miner will not further rewarding people actually actively mining.

Possible fall out of proposed mining "improvements"

Okay those are 2 ideas that someone elsewhere may have already had but I didn't spot (sorry if this is the case and its not intended as an offence) but what could be the result of making mining better through a "mini game mechanic"?

As is already known people like to min max where possible, by adding a new element to the equation to take concentration you run the risk of not spotting other things (like that hostile that just came into system or the new belt rats etc). I am not actually saying this is a bad thing (I am actually a null sec raider and would love more chance that a miner may not spot my entry into local but I feel this mini game idea, due to concentration required to attain the best results will actually help keep the "risk/reward" mechanic in place.

While were at it why are asteroids "only" positive?

Also on the subject of min maxing fits I had a random idea, why are asteroids only a resource? why not make them the trigger for rat spawns or even have them shoot back? using the two potential mechanics listed above how about not having all finds positive?

You could have some asteroid anomolies that are negative, for example...

You accidently spooked a hidden pirate hideout and they boil out of hiding to protect there hideaway (maybe handled as simply as a player generated belt spawn)
The asteroid actually has camoflaged weapon implacements and starts shooting at you itself and you must now incapacitate the defences or even leave its vicinity if you cannot.

Hell go wild people, I am sure others can come up with cool alternative asteroid anomolies both positive and negative.

The mechanic of sec status could be used to govern the likelyhood of these "negative and positive anomolies" and the severity when they occur and skills could help you spot these special anomolies more easily and avoid them or not as required. This will add an element of balance into people fitting there mining ships as they have to consider if they can survive a potential "negative anomoly" which again helps the risk/reward mechanic.

Okay...wow I was only intending to make a short reply and now I have written a horrible wall o' text so I had better bring this to an end and let other people with good ideas get there say, oh and in before any of my corpies point out they have never seen me in a mining ship (they are right for just the reason this thread exists, mining is boring Lol) but if it was made more about exploring and more.. fun.. I just might Lol
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2012-01-26 00:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: minijack1
LOL the thought of Arian Blade in a mining barge.

My thoughts on the matter. I would love to see improvments to the way mining is done, I unlike my corpie here, have mined, infact i sometimes mine while on PvP operations (dont tell the FC please). It would be so much better if there was a way of getting more out of what you do when mining.

The ideas Arian has put forward i like, though the drawbacks are there of not being able to watch the blet fo rats etc. but mining needs something like that, something to make pilots have to think, and also get more rewards for thinking.

Some additional ideas for the negative effects:
Gas pocket in one of the asteroids, goes of like a smart bomb, could be shown by a realy low density patch on the rock.
Bad ore that has a large volume and refines down to very little.

If mining became more interesting you might find me mining rather than killing miners. Though it will take quite a change to do that, killling indusrtial ships is so much fun.
Elessa Enaka
#119 - 2012-01-26 01:02:36 UTC
Xenuchrist wrote:
Elessa Enaka wrote:
Janus Nightmare wrote:
Oh! I had another thought.

So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.

Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.

Just a thought :)


I like that idea a lot, make it just the same as can flipping while your mining lasers are active on the asteroid. If another member of your corp decides to mine the same asteroid as you, it's not a problem. However, when someone else comes along they get flagged just the same as if they had robbed your jetcan and become a legal target for anyone in your corp. If you leave the belt though and come back to them mining "your" asteroid, you're SOL.

I do think that this would help with bots, I also think that there would be those who would exploit it just as there are those who canflip to provoke miners.

Either way though, I think that the positives would outweigh the negatives.


This could help a with a possible bot circumvention of the original proposition as well: Obstructing bots from simply following (perceived) non-bot players. In-game it could be justified as the rock being a claim (Klondike-style) belonging to the first miner.



Yeah, TBH, I never understood why there wasn't some form of "claim" system in place for miners. After all, each faction has a prospector certificate, though no other link whatsoever to prospecting (outside of perhaps, scanning for gravs)

Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats....

Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-01-26 01:06:34 UTC
Just give miners a new ship and they will be happy for a long time. More ships in EVE the better off everyone is.

I have more space likes than you. 

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