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Will Minmitar-Amarr relations improve?

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Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#21 Posted: 2012.02.10 17:29
Valerie Valate wrote:
The Minmatar Republic does not care about Amarrian enslavement of non-minmatar persons. They have gone so far as to leave non-minmatar slaves behind when assaulting installations that have a slave population, forcing non-minmatar persons back into the cells.


Do you have any sources to cite for this?
Chūjō Katrina Oniseki
~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer
~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations
#22 Posted: 2012.02.10 17:36  |  Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores
How about the Republic sorts out the sectarian violence in their own borders before worrying about even more ex-slaves that will contribute even more to the current domestic problems?

The onus of ending slavery and the Amarr Empire will fall on the Federated Union. The Minmatar Republic is an insular nation, like the Caldari State, and is not an influence-seeking superpower like the Federation is. We have the second-largest population, the industrial base, and the relative domestic stability to do it. The Republic will simply fall alongside the Federation in this theoretical war as an ally and secondary consideration.

Gallenteans give a damn about slaves of all races, not just Minmatar. We are polar opposites of the Amarr Empire, yet we are also expansionist in nature. Any such war would be a true world war in the sense, and it will change the entire face of the cluster as we know it. A war to end all wars, if you will.

Alone, the Minmatar Republic has no hopes of defeating the Amarr Empire. Alone, and without CONCORD or the Federation as your ally, the Amarr Empire can reconquer Minmatar space without stopping for breath. Do not forget who aided in training your people. If the Federation did not step in to bring the masses of slaves up to speed on modern warfare technology, you may not have been successful in your Rebellion.

Remember, a good 20% of your people reside in the Federation. That's not very far from the 30% that are still enslaved, and again, that number is somewhat lower given the emancipation order at the end of YC110.
JIHADASQUAD
#23 Posted: 2012.02.10 17:47
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
How about the Republic sorts out the sectarian violence in their own borders before worrying about even more ex-slaves that will contribute even more to the current domestic problems?

The onus of ending slavery and the Amarr Empire will fall on the Federated Union. The Minmatar Republic is an insular nation, like the Caldari State, and is not an influence-seeking superpower like the Federation is. We have the second-largest population, the industrial base, and the relative domestic stability to do it. The Republic will simply fall alongside the Federation in this theoretical war as an ally and secondary consideration.

Gallenteans give a damn about slaves of all races, not just Minmatar. We are polar opposites of the Amarr Empire, yet we are also expansionist in nature. Any such war would be a true world war in the sense, and it will change the entire face of the cluster as we know it. A war to end all wars, if you will.

Alone, the Minmatar Republic has no hopes of defeating the Amarr Empire. Alone, and without CONCORD or the Federation as your ally, the Amarr Empire can reconquer Minmatar space without stopping for breath. Do not forget who aided in training your people. If the Federation did not step in to bring the masses of slaves up to speed on modern warfare technology, you may not have been successful in your Rebellion.

Remember, a good 20% of your people reside in the Federation. That's not very far from the 30% that are still enslaved.


Inhonores has the gist of it. I'm sure both the Empire and Federation will realize soon enough who the real threat is.

Many Amarrians seem to forget that it was the Federation which funded, supplied, trained, and instigated the Matari rebellion after Vak A'tioth. The Matari have always been wild and aggressive, but manageable....they have only proven dangerous when organized and pointed in the same direction by their outside puppet-masters in the Federation.

There will be a reckoning between the Empire and Federation eventually, of this we can all be sure.
Sabik now, Sabik forever
#24 Posted: 2012.02.10 17:53
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
The Minmatar Republic does not care about Amarrian enslavement of non-minmatar persons. They have gone so far as to leave non-minmatar slaves behind when assaulting installations that have a slave population, forcing non-minmatar persons back into the cells.


Do you have any sources to cite for this?


Yes, it was in the news a few years back.


Silas Vitalia wrote:

There will be a reckoning between the Empire and Federation eventually, of this we can all be sure.


Oh, don't say that. You'll enrage the Andreus.
#25 Posted: 2012.02.10 17:56  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Rodj Blake wrote:

I could equally point to the incessant raids into Amarrian territory by Republican forces.

Next!


And I've already noted that netiher side is entirely blameless; the Republic and the Empire are at war, Captain Blake, and nobody is without fault in war. For the sake of accuracy, however, I have to point out that the Republic doesn't enslave the prisoners they take.

The sad fact of the matter is, peace will probably never be possible, until the Empire shows that they can be honest about their intent. I mean, seriously, Captain Blake -- the Matari are patient (almost to a fault), but we're not stupid, and we can tell when we're being led down the proverbial garden path.

If you want to make inroads towards peace, I suggest you get your house in order. Take care of the illegal slave raids that still occur in Republic space. Prove to us that you're sincere about stopping illegal raiding parties.

It won't magically solve the problem, but it would give us at least the impression that you can be trusted to commit yourself to the peace process.
I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#26 Posted: 2012.02.10 18:30  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

I could equally point to the incessant raids into Amarrian territory by Republican forces.

Next!


And I've already noted that neither side is entirely blameless; the Republic and the Empire are at war, Captain Blake, and nobody is without fault in war. For the sake of accuracy, however, I have to point out that the Republic doesn't enslave the prisoners they take.


That is not entirely true. I've heard some interesting reports about POW camps.

Quote:
The sad fact of the matter is, peace will probably never be possible, until the Empire shows that they can be honest about their intent. I mean, seriously, Captain Blake -- the Matari are patient (almost to a fault), but we're not stupid, and we can tell when we're being led down the proverbial garden path.


Many of us have been honest but like I have said before, releasing thousands of slaves with nowhere to put them will only lead to more suffering. For many it would simply be from going to long work hours with three meals a day and health care to longer hours and starving.

This entire process is going to have to be a joint effort of both nations to relocated and plan the future of each person by case by case. Flooding your work force and cities with countless homeless/ jobless doesn't help anyone lest of all them.

Course they would starve free but that's what is important isn't it?

Quote:
If you want to make inroads towards peace, I suggest you get your house in order. Take care of the illegal slave raids that still occur in Republic space. Prove to us that you're sincere about stopping illegal raiding parties.

It won't magically solve the problem, but it would give us at least the impression that you can be trusted to commit yourself to the peace process.


Keep in mind not everyone in Amarr has the same duty. Mine for example is to protect Providence nothing more. That being said if you point out to me slavers in my space braking the law I can and will deal with them.
#27 Posted: 2012.02.10 19:02  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
A cyclic and often fruitless debate.

Astrid Stjerna wrote:

if the Empire wants peace, we're open to pursuing that option, and we always have been.


Astrid Stjerna wrote:

We're willing to seek peace.


You are ? I am not sure that a lot of Minmatars share your views on this. Besides this, this is irrelevant as a declaration of war says the exact contrary, even if it was not the case before. But again, the people of Matar choosed to depose Midular in favor of conservatives and the use of the gallente financial help to fund war, which basically makes this claim hypocritical.

Astrid Stjerna wrote:

For starters, there's the continual raiding into the Republic -- regardless of whether or not they're 'officially sanctioned', your promises to end raids like that are coming up woefully short.


Pots and kettles. I have seen the same in Amarrian space happening, by Minmatar, Gallente, and even Caldari forces. And I can state that this is the same between all these factions, having worked for most of them, mainly consisting of hypocritical blackops raids that are supposedly not sanctionned by their commissioners.

Astrid Stjerna wrote:

And I've already noted that netiher side is entirely blameless; the Republic and the Empire are at war, Captain Blake, and nobody is without fault in war. For the sake of accuracy, however, I have to point out that the Republic doesn't enslave the prisoners they take.

The sad fact of the matter is, peace will probably never be possible, until the Empire shows that they can be honest about their intent. I mean, seriously, Captain Blake -- the Matari are patient (almost to a fault), but we're not stupid, and we can tell when we're being led down the proverbial garden path.

If you want to make inroads towards peace, I suggest you get your house in order. Take care of the illegal slave raids that still occur in Republic space. Prove to us that you're sincere about stopping illegal raiding parties.

It won't magically solve the problem, but it would give us at least the impression that you can be trusted to commit yourself to the peace process.


The Empire has absolutely nothing to prove to an outside attacker, theorically, much as any civilization will have nothing to prove to someone trying to invade it. Maybe it was the opposite in the past, maybe the ball was in the Amarrian side before this war, but now it is in the Republic side. Also, the Republic consciously choosed war.

You should really work to change the minds in the Republic, much like Amarrian progressists try the same thing in the Empire, instead of trying to prove yourself even more apologetic than some Amarrians roaming on this public venue. I perfectly know that you admit the mistakes done by the Republic, but that does not make your claims less out of place than they are.

Also, it is interesting to note that treaties and agreements on joint efforts would benefit from a stable peace, or at least, a cease fire, to happen, which will hardly be the case now. A Midular supporter said to me once that the Republic shot itself in the foot by funding this wasteful war (with gallentean money), which only caused millions deaths on both sides and several attempts of genocides, and generated even more hatred than there was.


Edit : I must add that the Republic is somehow at least a little the victim caught between two forces, being the Amarr Empire and the Elders, the latter being actually the ones to assault Yulai and the Empire. They put the Republic in a disastrous position and actually left them no real choice on what to do next. The true enemy of the Republic might not be the Empire, even if this little thought is to take with a whole spoon of salt.
#28 Posted: 2012.02.10 19:26  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Kithrus wrote:

That is not entirely true. I've heard some interesting reports about POW camps.


Point taken. I'll put forward the counter-argument that POWs are generally repatriated after the war's conclusion; slaves, on the other hand, are very rarely released without a great deal of effort.

Kithrus wrote:

Many of us have been honest but like I have said before, releasing thousands of slaves with nowhere to put them will only lead to more suffering. For many it would simply be from going to long work hours with three meals a day and health care to longer hours and starving.

This entire process is going to have to be a joint effort of both nations to relocated and plan the future of each person by case by case. Flooding your work force and cities with countless homeless/ jobless doesn't help anyone lest of all them.

Course they would starve free but that's what is important isn't it?


Again, a valid point. It's going to take both of our peoples to end the war and make reparations. Still, I once more issue a counter-point: the Empire has simply not shown any desire to make that effort, beyond advancing a few half-hearted measures of appeasement.

Kithrus wrote:
Keep in mind not everyone in Amarr has the same duty. Mine for example is to protect Providence nothing more. That being said if you point out to me slavers in my space braking the law I can and will deal with them.


Tell me, Kithrus, how does Providence benefit from implicitly condoning illegal actions? Because that's what all this non-enforcement is doing. The upshot of it is, when the Republic tries to clean out the illegal raiders, we're denounced as 'terrorists' attacking 'Amarrian interests'.

Kithrus, we're getting awfully tired of doing the Empire's wet-work, especially when the Empire is more than capable of handling it by themselves.

And, Captain Farel:

Lyn Farel wrote:
The Empire has absolutely nothing to prove to an outside attacker, theorically, much as any civilization will have nothing to prove to someone trying to invade it. Maybe it was the opposite in the past, maybe the ball was in the Amarrian side before this war, but now it is in the Republic side. Also, the Republic consciously choosed war.


The Empire does have to prove that they sincerely want peace, because we're don't want to sit down at the table with them and find that they're just wasting our time.
I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#29 Posted: 2012.02.10 20:12  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

I could equally point to the incessant raids into Amarrian territory by Republican forces.

Next!


And I've already noted that netiher side is entirely blameless; the Republic and the Empire are at war, Captain Blake, and nobody is without fault in war. For the sake of accuracy, however, I have to point out that the Republic doesn't enslave the prisoners they take.

The sad fact of the matter is, peace will probably never be possible, until the Empire shows that they can be honest about their intent. I mean, seriously, Captain Blake -- the Matari are patient (almost to a fault), but we're not stupid, and we can tell when we're being led down the proverbial garden path.

If you want to make inroads towards peace, I suggest you get your house in order. Take care of the illegal slave raids that still occur in Republic space. Prove to us that you're sincere about stopping illegal raiding parties.

It won't magically solve the problem, but it would give us at least the impression that you can be trusted to commit yourself to the peace process.


If you consider the Empress freeing millions of slaves to be us leading you up the garden path, then you clearly have no idea what a garden is. Or a path.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#30 Posted: 2012.02.10 21:01
I'm hesitant to give the Matari any kind of reparations because during the forming of the Republic the reparations monies went to the Eldar fleets and we don't need to rehash how that ended.

For those still paying attention with an open mind frankly its going to take years for this problem to go away. its not going to be solved over night. I doubt it can be solved in a normal human life time or an Amarr one.

Its going to be a long hard political road thwart with lies, truths, accusations and hopefully at the end less broken hearts.

Just remember and this goes to everyone...

For every Slave you take outside of Amarr Space or for every Amarrian you slay to free slaves you add another day to how long this will take to solve.

and I'm not talking about the Faction Warfare people. That's another matter I'm not in the mood to get into and its why I voted CVA refrains from it.
#31 Posted: 2012.02.10 21:02  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Rodj Blake wrote:

If you consider the Empress freeing millions of slaves to be us leading you up the garden path, then you clearly have no idea what a garden is. Or a path.


And as I've been saying for a long time, that's a very good start. Now back it up with more.

The Empire, in my experience, is really good with 'starting', but not so keen on the follow-through. That's what I mean by 'leading us up the garden path' -- to our admittedly-jaded eyes, that kind of thing plays out like something designed to get us to 'shut up and go away' for a while. Something that you can pat us on the head about and say 'Look at us! We're reforming!' without actually committing to any reforms.

If you want us to take you seriously, stop treating us like fools.

And Kithrus, I fully agree that this isn't hoing to be solved overnight. What disappoints me about our dealings with the Empire is that I've seen very little serious interest on your government's part in solving it at all.
I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
#32 Posted: 2012.02.10 21:11
My Minmatar allies, you're really missing the bigger picture.

Your freedom will not be the only one under threat when the two superpowers of New Eden, the Federation and the Holy Empire, decide to slug it out.

You are just one blip to the Amarr. If this world war was to take place, the Minmatar will be one of many peoples fighting against subjugation.

Do not forget that.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#33 Posted: 2012.02.10 21:56
The fledgling Republic all but buckled under the strain of the 9th Gen emancipation, of which only a fraction actually chose to return "home" .. where would the remainder be "settled" now that the proud Thukker have had their space expropriated for the purpose due to there being no room (or no willing neighbours) elsewhere?

Last I heard a majority of the influx have still to get further than the internment camps set up by The Tyrant Shakor to protect the community at large from potential pro-peace/pro-Amarr refugee such as the now deceased cleric Abel Jarek.

The limited scope of the initial emancipation is really a testament to the benevolence of Her Imperial Majesty, as she no doubt foresaw the burden that a possible massive increase in population could be for a nation already teetering on the brink of civil unrest, such as the Republic.
That is probably the only "good" thing The Tyrant has achieved, by judicious use of the iron fist of the Brutor and the dissolution of Parliament he managed to keep the Republic from collapsing in on itself.
Personally not of the belief that a dictatorship is preferable, but judging by the number of poor souls who follow the decrees oozing out of Pator it may just be what the Minmatar peoples were destined for .. to be under a thumb .. guess it is alright as long as the illusion of 'freedom' is intact.

PS: The last 'quip' was not random, but based on observation. One of my first acts as executor of the Yoshida Estate was to set all slaves free and offering them honest pay, for honest work .. doing the exact same thing they did as slaves in my late father's time.
Profits went up, efficiency went up, individual productivity went up and running costs plummeted .. all in all, the illusion of freedom has made my slaves employees better for the estate than the Caldari specialists I had on temporarily during the transition period.
#34 Posted: 2012.02.10 22:27  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
One of my first acts as executor of the Yoshida Estate was to set all slaves free and offering them honest pay, for honest work .. doing the exact same thing they did as slaves in my late father's time.
Profits went up, efficiency went up, individual productivity went up and running costs plummeted .. all in all, the illusion of freedom has made my slaves employees better for the estate than the Caldari specialists I had on temporarily during the transition period.


The difference is, you're not offering the 'illusion' of freedom. You stated that you freed your slaves and offered them pay, making them hired workers. If they chose to leave at that point, they would be free to seek employment wherever they wish.

There is no requirement that freed slaves return to the Republic. I'm a former slave myself, and I didn't return for several months, and then only long enough to find out what I could about my family.

If a former slave wishes to head into Gallente space or Caldari space, or even (Spirits protect them) into Jovian space, they're permitted to do so without judgement. If they choose, they can return to the Republic. That's the nature of freedom, after all.

We offer only what the Empire will not -- a choice.
I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Amarr Empire
#35 Posted: 2012.02.10 22:39
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

I agree that it was foolish to go back on our treaties -- not disputing that, nor will I ever dispute it -- but when our enemy can't be bothered to keep to its word, what reason do we have to do so?


When did the Empire not keep to its word regarding the Minmatar?


For starters, there's the continual raiding into the Republic -- regardless of whether or not they're 'officially sanctioned', your promises to end raids like that are coming up woefully short.


I think it was promised to do something about it, not to end it. No one can promise that. It's like saying, "I promise to end crime." You can mitigate it, sure, but making all crime cease is impossible. Same goes for illegal raids.
JIHADASQUAD
#36 Posted: 2012.02.10 22:46
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
One of my first acts as executor of the Yoshida Estate was to set all slaves free and offering them honest pay, for honest work .. doing the exact same thing they did as slaves in my late father's time.
Profits went up, efficiency went up, individual productivity went up and running costs plummeted .. all in all, the illusion of freedom has made my slaves employees better for the estate than the Caldari specialists I had on temporarily during the transition period.


So PIE is finally giving up the whole 'it's for your own good' slavery rationale? Kudos to Yoshida here for being honest as to motivations for domination and exploitation. I see a future for you!



Sabik now, Sabik forever
#37 Posted: 2012.02.11 03:42
They say "Time heals all wounds", and those with revenge in their hearts will maintain the inflammation. The cycle of violence begets more violence, which in turn demands retribution until billions are dead and no one remembers what they were fighting for. The Amarr and Minmatar people are trapped in this dysfunctional, abusive relationship that neither seem too intent upon ending. If there's one nice thing I can say about CONCORD, it's probably the only force preventing either side from annihilating the other.

And while I can certainly empathize with the Minmatar resentment of the Amarr for keeping their people in bondage, I find this blind subservience to the cause of violent liberation as slavish behavior. They are not your people. You are not responsible for them, and you can choose to lead a prosperous life for yourselves. Perpetuating the cycle of violence by lifting a gun to die for your fellow people, or risk thousands of crew for freedom, is just as much a downfall for the cause. Have you considered for a moment, that perhaps those in bondage would get some satisfaction in knowing that at least their siblings or loved ones lived a robust and prosperous life rather than dying on the battlefield trying to save them?

And the Amarr people, who know fully the repercussions of their behavior, choose to perpetuate this cycle in the name of their God. There's not much else to say about this that hasn't been said, but you certainly know how it stops.

Asking paramilitary organizations, whose sole purpose is fighting for their nation, to offer a creative solution other than bloodshed is folly. It's not capsule pilots who are going to end this war, but leaders with the vision to see diplomacy beyond the point of a barrel of a gun.

xoxo
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#38 Posted: 2012.02.11 05:09
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

If you consider the Empress freeing millions of slaves to be us leading you up the garden path, then you clearly have no idea what a garden is. Or a path.


And as I've been saying for a long time, that's a very good start. Now back it up with more.

The Empire, in my experience, is really good with 'starting', but not so keen on the follow-through. That's what I mean by 'leading us up the garden path' -- to our admittedly-jaded eyes, that kind of thing plays out like something designed to get us to 'shut up and go away' for a while. Something that you can pat us on the head about and say 'Look at us! We're reforming!' without actually committing to any reforms.

If you want us to take you seriously, stop treating us like fools.

And Kithrus, I fully agree that this isn't hoping to be solved overnight. What disappoints me about our dealings with the Empire is that I've seen very little serious interest on your government's part in solving it at all.


Well as a holder in the Kingdom I have committed to freeing my slaves in line with Her Grace's request. I have over two thousand souls under my care each with many skills and families. All of these hands need to be replaced and some of them will not want to leave.

And here is the part many people do not understand:

Some slaves who are with an understanding lord are better off then most middle class people. They have a house work freedom to engage in safe recreation and an education. Some of them will not want to leave and explaining that to anyone would be difficult at best.

However Making the transition of my house from Slaves to Employees is not one that happens over night. Even simple red tape is in the way. In order to ensure just wages many people need to be certified to justify their minimum wage bracket. This requires addition educations and testing.

I'd be remiss if I just free everyone who wants to go and didn't ensure those who did had the paperwork to back up the the trades they were tasked with since young adulthood.

In brief yes there are Lords committed to change but as addressed above leadership can't pounce on the coucil of lords collective backs and force all the slaves freed.

There would be pure anarchy.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#39 Posted: 2012.02.11 07:16  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
The difference is, you're not offering the 'illusion' of freedom. You stated that you freed your slaves and offered them pay, making them hired workers. If they chose to leave at that point, they would be free to seek employment wherever they wish....

That is where the illusion comes into play, on paper and in their minds they can indeed leave whenever and to where ever the choose, but between work-schedules, carefully managed salaries and tweaking the pricing of the goods sold to them it is possible for me to insure that such action is a practical impossibility.
It was after conferring with my sister, Hirana Yoshida, that the decision was made and it was based on the experience and knowledge she acquired living in the State .. the Caldari worker is among the most obedient and productive in the cluster largely due to clever social-engineering by the corporations.
Silas Vitalia wrote:
So PIE is finally giving up the whole 'it's for your own good' slavery rationale? Kudos to Yoshida here for being honest as to motivations for domination and exploitation. I see a future for you!

I have never been a spokes-woman for the Praetoria, so what you say is a little over reaching me'thinks. As for domination and exploitation .. all I have done is maximize efficiency according to Caldari models, changing the "Made in Amarr" collars for the one "Made in the State/Republic/Federation".
Slavery in the modern day Empire has more in common with regular 'gainful employ' than most people realise or would care to admit, the biggest difference is really the title of the charges within the system; Slave vs. Indentured Servant/Employee/Hired Hand.

At least "Slavery" is honest as to intent/purpose .. think about it.
Kithrus wrote:
However Making the transition of my house from Slaves to Employees is not one that happens over night. Even simple red tape is in the way. In order to ensure just wages many people need to be certified to justify their minimum wage bracket. This requires addition educations and testing....

Which is why I found it necessary to bring in temporary workers to fill the gaps during the transition period. It is worth it though, the additional expenses were covered just three months after the process had finished thanks to the surprisingly large increase in productivity.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#40 Posted: 2012.02.11 09:06
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
One of my first acts as executor of the Yoshida Estate was to set all slaves free and offering them honest pay, for honest work .. doing the exact same thing they did as slaves in my late father's time.
Profits went up, efficiency went up, individual productivity went up and running costs plummeted .. all in all, the illusion of freedom has made my slaves employees better for the estate than the Caldari specialists I had on temporarily during the transition period.


So PIE is finally giving up the whole 'it's for your own good' slavery rationale? Kudos to Yoshida here for being honest as to motivations for domination and exploitation. I see a future for you!





PIE as a corporation still supports the concept of slavery, but we do not force our members to keep slaves.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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