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The case for assault frigates?

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Minmatar Republic
#81 Posted: 2012.02.21 04:47
Liang Nuren wrote:

A couple of comments:
- Most people fly inties with Inty 4. Thus, your standard no-tank Ares has a sig radius of 105.
- You claim that a SFIs sig radius is 94, but by my calculation it'll be well over 500 in the same situation.
- You speak of the Thrasher and neglect to mention that its sig radius is going to be over 400.

I can really tell what kind of "testing" you did. ;-)

-Liang


You miss the point entirely. My point is, anything that will hit a thrasher, will hit an AF. Anything over "can I hit this due to size/speed" is irrelevant as it is a yes or no question. For a proper comparison, anything attempting to track an AF MWDing will be as if it is aiming at something the size of a cruiser. Try thinking outside of the box. Again, I am under no delusions that a thrasher wont get hit. YOU are under the delusion that a cruiser sized object wont get hit.

The Ares you listed is going to be doing a LOT more in the speed department. Tracking is sig/speed in relation to the guns' capability.

Liang Nuren wrote:
The answer is always to figure out which one you want to do. My particular fit is geared for close up brawling, and sometimes that's a weakness - usually against frigs, but very occasionally against cruisers. Thus I see no problem in deciding that I'd want to tackle a HAC 15km away or run away from a LR HAC that's 80km away.

Frankly, you aren't seeing anything particularly noteworthy because you don't want to see it. I've already proven that your testing is full of ****. Apparently 2 flights of Warrior IIs will overwhelm my "negligible" active tank. And yet... somehow.... that's not what happens.

-Liang


Pretty much good piloting and decision making is more in important that what hull you fly. So far so good.

I have watched your video (specifically the cruiser brawl) more times than probably anyone else replying to your thread.

In terms of attackers I saw damage messages indicating:

One person's warrior 2s (Zoa, in the 2nd SFI)

One person's 180ACs (Gal, the primary SFI you killed off first)

A set of HH2s (which probably did jack for damage, as i saw nothing but miss messages)

An occasional miss from the Ferox's guns (at 500ms from you isn't surprising, that is pilot error in the extreme if he isn't trying to get range or seperate you from his gang mates)
And for a split second, I saw the Ferox put its drones on you.
I saw one partial hit from the Claw, and he pointed you.

The enemy fleet did nothing to gain range and spread out the attackers. Again BAD tactics.

They did NOT do anything remotely close to focus fire. One set of drones, plus one set of 180ACs? Thats it? The navy vexor did nothing useful at all, guns or drones wise to you. The ferox didn't put its own drones on you for any noticable length of time. He wasn't doing anything useful to get range or lower your transversal for his guns. Ok, he paniced, we will give you the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't going to be able to pull it off to get his guns on you. That still leaves SFI 1's drones, and SFI 2's Guns. So of the 5 ships on the field with 5 sets of guns (1 was an inty, and we can count out the ferox for the sake of argument) and 4 sets of drones (one of which was the wrong type, 1 of which never attacked you period, and another which attacked you for a split second), you had 2 people partially attacking you. And somehow this is conclusive proof of AF survivability? Again, to summarize, you survived 5 uncoordinated pilots partially attacking you and using bad tactics. Nothing I didn't see the first time I watched the video.


If someone gave me something concrete to work with that simple number crunching can't shoot down, I would admit so. I'm not some sort of 'ZOMG AFS ARE TERRIBLE LOL!!!111" type just for kicks and giggles. I simply challenge the common "myth" that they are worth the price, or they bring anything new to the table that isn't covered by a cheaper ship or that they do anything "well" at all.
Minmatar Republic
#82 Posted: 2012.02.21 04:54  |  Edited by: Mechael
AmIDeadyet wrote:
My point is, anything that will hit a thrasher, will hit an AF.


This is where you are wrong, as I've said already. Thrasher has a larger sig radius, lower top speed, and worse agility. How is it going to be just as easy to hit? It's not. Do more testing, buddy. Or, just do *better* testing.
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
#83 Posted: 2012.02.21 05:09  |  Edited by: Onlyasandwich
AmIDeadyet wrote:

My point is, anything that will hit a thrasher, will hit an AF. Anything over "can I hit this due to size/speed" is irrelevant as it is a yes or no question. For a proper comparison, anything attempting to track an AF MWDing will be as if it is aiming at something the size of a cruiser.



This is where you again miss the key point that Liang pointed out a few posts ago. Yes, a MWDing AF may have a cruiser sized sig, but it will be going much much faster than a cruiser. If a cruiser attempts to MWD to those speeds, it will blow up to BS sized sig.

Of course size/speed matters! An AF going several thousand m/s will be much harder to hit than a cruiser going sub 1k, thanks to that lovely MWD role reduction bonus. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring or denying this fact. Feel free to substitute "thrasher" for "cruiser" in this scenario as well.
Minmatar Republic
#84 Posted: 2012.02.21 05:22  |  Edited by: A'Brantox Foson
Sorry, tl;dr on most posts here, but this is a thread killer

Bleeding_eyes_rawr:)
The doer

Granted, I did miss that it was quite badly fit, but it goes to show if your opponent doesn't have neuts, you can punch far above your weight with 1...

Now if only I could fly them...
Heretic Initiative
#85 Posted: 2012.02.21 06:27
AmIDeadyet wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

A couple of comments:
- Most people fly inties with Inty 4. Thus, your standard no-tank Ares has a sig radius of 105.
- You claim that a SFIs sig radius is 94, but by my calculation it'll be well over 500 in the same situation.
- You speak of the Thrasher and neglect to mention that its sig radius is going to be over 400.

I can really tell what kind of "testing" you did. ;-)

-Liang


You miss the point entirely. My point is, anything that will hit a thrasher, will hit an AF. Anything over "can I hit this due to size/speed" is irrelevant as it is a yes or no question. For a proper comparison, anything attempting to track an AF MWDing will be as if it is aiming at something the size of a cruiser. Try thinking outside of the box. Again, I am under no delusions that a thrasher wont get hit. YOU are under the delusion that a cruiser sized object wont get hit.

The Ares you listed is going to be doing a LOT more in the speed department. Tracking is sig/speed in relation to the guns' capability.


A Jaguar goes 40% faster than a Thrasher, a fact that is multiplied by 3.45x because of its much lower sig radius. Yes, that makes it about 5x as hard to hit.

Quote:

Pretty much good piloting and decision making is more in important that what hull you fly. So far so good.

I have watched your video (specifically the cruiser brawl) more times than probably anyone else replying to your thread.
...
The enemy fleet did nothing to gain range and spread out the attackers. Again BAD tactics.

They did NOT do anything remotely close to focus fire. One set of drones, plus one set of 180ACs? Thats it?


You are aware that not all messages pop up on the screen, right? Furthermore, there's a veritable cloud of drones flying around me that I'm zoomed too far in to see. You can see up to 10 on the screen at a time. Just for your edification, I went back and looked at the high res original version and I saw the following from damage messages throughout the fight:
- Ferox running Heavy Ion IIs, hitting for 30-50 damage
- Ferox running Hornet IIs
- Ferox running neuts
- Ferox running web + scram
- SFI running D180 IIs (Galdornae)
- SFI running Hammerheads (Galdornae)again)
- SFI running Webs + scram (Galdornae)
- SFI running D180 IIs (Zostrallis)
- SFI running Warriors (Zostrallis)
- SFI running webs + scram (Zostrallis)
- Vexor Navy running Heavy Ion IIs
- Vexor Navy running neuts
- Vexor navy running webs + scram
- Vexor Navy running Hammerheads (Gritz1)
- Claw running 250mm Arty IIs

And all of that while I was going 40m/s. I contend that there is in fact something to the ship itself.

Quote:
The navy vexor did nothing useful at all, guns or drones wise to you.


Yes, that might have something to do with the fact that AFs have great resists and a small sig radius. Unless you're trying to claim that a Thrasher could have survived even what you're claiming?

Quote:

And somehow this is conclusive proof of AF survivability? Again, to summarize, you survived 5 uncoordinated pilots partially attacking you and using bad tactics. Nothing I didn't see the first time I watched the video.


Then obviously you aren't actually watching the video.

-Liang
Minmatar Republic
#86 Posted: 2012.02.21 07:40  |  Edited by: AmIDeadyet
I believe I know where I went wrong with my testing and assumptions from said testing. It had to do with my understanding of turret mechanics.

In a nutshell, my understand of something like falloff was flawed. I knew for instance that 50% dps was the end result from attacking a target at the end of single falloff. The problem was with my understanding of how that dps reduction happened. My understanding of the reason for the dps decrease was simply that the damage amount itself was just simply halved, but assuming the target could be tracked by the turret, a hit was always produced, albeit at a lesser value that optimal range damage. This was erroneous. Dps itself like many probability functions has a LONG time element. It isn't a constant value. It is an unreliable average at best. For instance take an average coin flip. 50/50 chance right? From an absolute point of view, yes. However because probability and that percentage is a function of a lot of tries over a LONG period of time, it is quite possible that you throw the coin 1000 times and get tails every time. The chances are low, but it COULD happen. If that happened, the probability would appear to be zero chance of heads. But because probability is calculated over an extreme amound of chances, the numbers average out.

DPS with regards to falloff is no different. When a chance of a hit or miss is involved, the dps might compute out to 10, 20, 100, whatever, but if there is a chance to miss, even small, that dps number is NOT constant, it will be erratic, spiky, unreliable, it just averages out in the end to the final number. In the case of sig radius, my understanding didn't account for this. My assumption that this factored into the overall tracking of the object and the speed and size were factored into the radial velocity and was a simple yes or no question, not a percentage based to hit question. With a larger sig object being tracked by a certain turret size, the larger the target is, it is a multiplicative increase in chance to hit. This is why chance to hit is far more important than any damage number. All the damage means nothing if it isn't applied. In the case of the speedy type AF at some sort of range, any damage that is applied with be so periodic it cant be assumed to reliable (in the scenarios that I was referring to specifically, not an absolute). I might do 100 dps to that orbiting AF, but there is a good chance that damage is a single 1000 damage hit, once every 10 seconds and for the other 9 nothing happens, allowing time for regen, boosting, or other factors that eliminate the damage done. It is also perfectly possible the RNG to hit decress that you aren't hit for a matter of hours if missing is a possibility.

Specifically, with Liang's video, the turrets that were shooting at her boat (with the exception of the blasters on the Ferox, which had tracking issues at that close of range) were all operating outside of optimal range (they were autocannons). This created a good chance to miss all together, factor that in with the fact her sig radius was much smaller than the turret sig resolution, created a factoral increase over what was already a sizable chance to not be hit already. They were suck in between a rock and a hard place. If you move close in that scenario, you get closer to optimal, so your hit chance increases, but you might now have more radial velocity and therefore tracking problems, nullifying any gains. On occasion you see her take damage, but it isn't really consistant at any point. This combined with the shield booster is why she survived what she did. It makes a lot more sense now.

This is specifically the sort of proof I was looking for at the beginning when I said "show me proof". I apologize to anyone that might have felt disrespected as a result of this discussion and I thank everyone who contributed meaningfully past "ZOMG UR A TROLL!!!111"

I personally apologize to Liang, Mechael, Zarnak, Onlyasandwich, and any others. I do not believe I am completely wrong on a lot of the tactics and concepts regarding the AF's relation to all other ships. They might have a place after all and quite possibly could be better than I originally thought. I will conduct more testing, with a different methodology now that I have something to go on, and try something different. If I turn up anything significant, I will post it, of course. In the meantime, happy hunting.
Shadow Cartel
#87 Posted: 2012.02.21 07:44  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Situations always appear worse on paper than they are in space. Fly anything in PvP long enough and eventually someone or something will kill it.

Also are you trying to win EVE mathematically, don't bother there's no way to cover all your bases, there's too much variation and the same situation never happens twice (except maybe hahb's tristan and slicers). Don't assume the worst case scenario for yourself, ie. ruptures and dual web canes against your jag and go from there. A huge part of PvP in this game is the ability to duck bad engagements and catch those you can trounce, so get out there and make it happen. Incidentally I don't feel your seemingly beloved thrasher will fare particularly well either against the ruptures and canes.

At one point you wrote that if Liang had not had backup for his harpy against the Ferox and gang he would have died. It's not like there was logistics or anything, just fire support and the enemy were just not able to get the damage to break him after he cap boosted from the neuts. As for the cap boosting countering the neuts and letting the active tank run, that's just playing the game well and nothing else. It's like you're trying to say if you tried to solo a blob in an AF you'd DIAF but what doesn't?

While I can't speak for the pilots in the other ships it's possible their decisions were based at least in part on web/scram coming from the supporting members preventing them from splitting as they might like. It's easy to see mistakes after the fact which is why it's a good idea to FRAPS your fights. You can't assume that anyone making a mistake is just bad when you can't see all perspectives everyone looks incompetent when scrammed, jammed and triple webbed. The Ferox for example is webbed for at least parts of the fight so he's not really going anywhere and it's not really his fault per se that he isn't moving out. We do run interdiction maneuvers as well so it's hard to stay out of web range.

The main point is the game NEVER ever unfolds as it does on paper and calculator. Bad as a scenario looks on paper the nightmare is always exaggerated and not every pilot in the game is always flying the ship that counters you nor are they running with perfect skills and implants. So get out of EFT and do it. This thread sounds like: I like thrashers and was thinking about a jag after the AF boost. Afterward, the jag's not indestructible so i'll stick with the thrasher because it's cheap and still effective and if that's the way you want to play what's stopping you? But don't go telling the rest of us that AFs are useless and definitely don't tell us they are as easy to kill as a thrasher, that's just plain old fashioned wrong. While AFs may not be the best at anything their overall package is outstanding.
Minmatar Republic
#88 Posted: 2012.02.21 08:12
Good luck, sir. And remember to enjoy it so that you want to log back in tomorrow. :)
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
#89 Posted: 2012.02.21 08:57
I think most interesting buff was slot buff changes. Allows deployment of dps/tank/mobility/some ewar in really small gangs.

Sovereign Infinity
#90 Posted: 2012.02.21 10:13
AmIDeadyet wrote:
Belthazor4011 wrote:

What I Said .


- You aren't going to kill my Inty pilots with AFs unless they are bad or make mistakes (which goes both ways). They are noticeably faster than you even under the worst of scenarios.

- Define "so much more"? The Enyo can do 400-500dps with 5k EFHP at max effort overheating with close range ammo. A cookie cutter A/C Thrasher can do 425 dps with 7k EFHP under the same scenario. Or you can get 8k EFHP with 350 dps... All at 3-5x the cost. I can come up with a few vengeance fits that have 14k efhp, but they do barely 100dps. Please link a fit.

- Ive seen plenty of bads regardless of what ship you can think of. I have bait tackled a legion in a mammoth. Good times. That being said, link your 40k EFHP buffer tank. I have yet to see any such build that doesn't rely on some sort of gimmick.

- You do nothing to further the discussion here by constantly accusing me of trolling. Aparently anyone who disagrees with a common "myth" or challenges the mindset of the mob is a troll in your mind. I would re-examine your mindset.


-Inties will die to any AF, it either has to be in scram range and thereby in gun range and use its awesome paper tank or its at disrupter range and sorry but if you can’t shake a MWDing inty at range if you're in a frig yourself then well there really is no saving you. Cause that’s pretty damn easy...

-I never mentioned an Enyo so not sure why you did?! Any other will do indeed a little less DPS 250-300 or so but will actually have the tank I mentioned so that difference in DPS is not enough to make up for the difference in tank.

-Obviously I will not link my fit(s) but I'll teach you 2 new things you may want to consider. The first being Slaves, the second being a Fleet Booster. But those apply to any ship you say? Correct but AFs have T2 resists and because of that benefit much more from these 2 jewels. Although most will still reach 15-20k EHP tanks without either of these.

-Usually when people say dumb/odd/unusual things on a forum they are being a troll. Challenging a mindset is good, I know I fly some ships that almost no one would agree with. But to call the fact that AFs are good a 'myth' put you back on the troll path instead of someone that wants to challenge a mindset.

-In the end fly what you want, to not like AFs makes you a very small minority and there is nothing wrong with that. Just realize that after 5 pages and a few days in this thread you have not convinced anyone to agree with you. So just let it go and fly what you want.

-Fly safe
#91 Posted: 2012.02.21 15:30  |  Edited by: Ahrieman
I think the OP's name is what we will all be praying for before this troll post is concluded. I encourage all the other posters here to kill this **** with their AF to show him how very wrong he is. Nano Rupture for dinner anyone?

EDIT: I can't say t-w-a-t on here?
Sig tanking is the new black
#92 Posted: 2012.02.21 15:50
Ahrieman wrote:
I think the OP's name is what we will all be praying for before this troll post is concluded. I encourage all the other posters here to kill this **** with their AF to show him how very wrong he is. Nano Rupture for dinner anyone?

EDIT: I can't say t-w-a-t on here?

It was a misunderstanding and he understands a lot more now, he even apologized and he's still running more tests.
Imperial Outlaws.
#93 Posted: 2012.02.21 16:06
Ahrieman wrote:
I think the OP's name is what we will all be praying for before this troll post is concluded. I encourage all the other posters here to kill this **** with their AF to show him how very wrong he is. Nano Rupture for dinner anyone?

EDIT: I can't say t-w-a-t on here?


You and what army? O wait.... PLolP
#94 Posted: 2012.02.21 16:41
I like how Liang's "get ass-mad over S&M forum posting," has rubbed off on other Heretics.
Amarr Empire
#95 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:04  |  Edited by: Piatora
Beg to differ that AFs suck.

Went on an AF wolfpack roam 2 weeks ago. Was heading home quicker than the gang cuz it was sleepy times.

Engaged an enyo on the in-gate, it warped to the sun. I followed cuz "LOL, if I lose an AF I'm out 30 mil, whoopie".

Land in a bubble at the sun, in between 2 disco scorps who immediatly begin doing their thing and drop me to half armor, in a retrib. Then the enyo turns around, then a taranis burns at me, and the zealot that was chillin opened fire. Traversal gained, screamed bloody murder on comms, repper activated .... once I entered hull cuz I forgot I had one.

30 seconds later, im holding at about 20% armor, taking shots from the enyo, the taranis, and the zealot, the scorps have me perma jammed but reps are holding .... kinda.

Wolfpack lands, everyone else dies, I sheepishly report on comms that I DIDN'T die, I forgot I had a repper, I became the quote of the roam in the AAR, and my retrib is still happily leaking fire and smoke every time I fly it.

End result: 5 kills, my little retribution was #1 damage dealer on every killmail, even though I was jammed and taking fire until the fleet arrived to save my bacon and distract everyone, and perma running my repper drained all my cap to actually activate lazzorz with. Lived through an engagement that in nearly any other ship I would have been assured death, even before support could arrive.

Pretty sure if I was in a thrasher I would have insta-popped once the scorps started being disco-balls.

TL:DR, fly something in a real fight then say it sucks.

Edit 1: Forgot to say, and it was the most fun I had in months of HAC roaming, BS heavy fleets, depressing "nano shield BC" garbage, battle hauler roam, kitchen-sink clowncar action, and whelp-thrasher roaming. There is a reason why when it is AF wolfpack we get 50+ turnout and never come home with under 2bil in damage done, in Syndicate, which is terribad.
Minmatar Republic
#96 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:20
Ahrieman wrote:
I think the OP's name is what we will all be praying for before this troll post is concluded. I encourage all the other posters here to kill this **** with their AF to show him how very wrong he is. Nano Rupture for dinner anyone?

EDIT: I can't say t-w-a-t on here?


Congrats on not reading the thread, mainly my last post.
#97 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:27
Ahrieman wrote:
EDIT: I can't say t-w-a-t on here?


No, but fuckwit goes right through. Not saying it's called for here -- it's not -- but for future reference....
Minmatar Republic
#98 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:28
Piatora wrote:
Beg to differ that AFs suck.

Pretty sure if I was in a thrasher I would have insta-popped once the scorps started being disco-balls.

TL:DR, fly something in a real fight then say it sucks.

Edit 1: Forgot to say, and it was the most fun I had in months of HAC roaming, BS heavy fleets, depressing "nano shield BC" garbage, battle hauler roam, kitchen-sink clowncar action, and whelp-thrasher roaming. There is a reason why when it is AF wolfpack we get 50+ turnout and never come home with under 2bil in damage done, in Syndicate, which is terribad.

Same to you, congrats at not reading the thread. I never at any point claimed a destroyer would survive better in that sort of scenario.
Minmatar Republic
#99 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:41
Update:

A gift kill last night on a cyno ship gave me an idea to work with. Myself and a corp mate took it down with interceptors, myself in a malediction, him in an arty claw. Tested 2 arty jag fits this morning with good results as a sort of "combat inty" alternative. Build was a bit of a hybrid but looks promising. Drones still suck but otherwise ok. Further testing to be done later.
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