Ships & Modules

 
^ Back to top

Topic is locked indefinitely.

3 PagesPrevious page123Next page
 

CS = Complete S**t ???????

Author
Minmatar Republic
#21 Posted: 2012.02.21 08:05
Make it so that leadership boosts only apply when on grid. Problem solved.
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Heretic Initiative
#22 Posted: 2012.02.21 08:07
Mechael wrote:
Make it so that leadership boosts only apply when on grid. Problem solved.


Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".

-Liang
Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
#23 Posted: 2012.02.21 10:10
The problem with gang links and CS's as said in other threads is that the t3 and fleet CS link bonuses need to be reversed. Other than that, it's fine. But this discussion is mostly on field CS's which do not have any gang link bonuses other than the "can fit gang links" bonus which is on t1 BC's as well.
Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.
Minmatar Republic
#24 Posted: 2012.02.21 10:24
Liang Nuren wrote:
Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".

-Liang


Not aware of what problems this might cause, unless maybe you're talking about some sort of difficulty in getting the code to work.
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
#25 Posted: 2012.02.21 10:38
Liang Nuren wrote:


I feel the tank is a bit light - only 480 DPS overheated. The reality is that I'd actually shield tank it just like I do my Brutix.

-Liang


Surely with the meager 55-60k ehp this has the myrm or brutix are far more reasonable dps solutions. Unless you're flying with a logi I guess
Shadow Cartel
#26 Posted: 2012.02.21 10:45
Yeah flying with logi really boosts the field commands, mainly due to the higher resist profile. I know snuff box have had great success with absolution/gaurdian gangs. As for the ships themselves its only really the Nighthawk and maybe the Astarte that needs a boost, the Sleipner and the Absolution are absolutely fine the way they are.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
#27 Posted: 2012.02.21 10:47  |  Edited by: Jodie Amille
Mechael wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".

-Liang


Not aware of what problems this might cause, unless maybe you're talking about some sort of difficulty in getting the code to work.


The main problem I see with it is it will limit even further the ability for smaller groups to skirmish against larger ones. Unless you have significant amount of logi, no fleet-boost will remain on grid for a very long time. This holds especially true for skirmish gangs since there isn't really a sufficiently fast/agile platform to run the links on that can keep up with the gang and react to the changing battlefield.

The claymore is more tanky than speedy and the loki can be either fast(though not as fast as a vaga) or agile, but not bost and certainly not with a tank.

So IMO the net reduction is that while you might see less fleet boosting overall, there will be less fights since as soon as one side can field the ganglinks the other with either dock or run away(this already happens) and bigger gangs involving more logi to safeguard their precious shinies and boosties.

Not to mention this will severely gimp the "solo"/small gang pvper
#28 Posted: 2012.02.21 16:41
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jodie Amille wrote:
Would you mind posting your fit, Liang?


This is the one I was specifically looking at:

[Astarte, Ion/Rep]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5


I feel the tank is a bit light - only 480 DPS overheated. The reality is that I'd actually shield tank it just like I do my Brutix.

-Liang


I'd suggest dropping one of the Mag stabs in favor of either an active explosive hardener or a corpum c-a type energized reactive. Also get yourself a 2% grid implant (cheap) to get rid of that Ion as well as a 5% med hybrid implant (cheap) and some exile boosters.

Either way I feel that most people will be disappointed in the performance of Field Commands. They suffer from one of the smallest increases in performance between tech 1 and tech 2 as well as having heavily nerfed t2 resistances. If anyone cares to look you will notice that Field CS have 1 or 2 fewer total slots than tech 1 tier 2 BCs (I count rigs as slots), this is rather unique when looking at tech 1 to tech 2 progression of combat focused ships. Factor in the Cost of the hulls and the x8 dead end Command ship skill and the return for time/isk invested is very underwhelming. You're better off training t3s if you want to boost, or BS if you want to brawl. Hell, t3s are better combat ships than field commands in most cases.

As for the whole "logi plus Field Command" idea. Hacs do this far better due to higher resists, much higher speeds, and much lower sigs. You're fleets tank will be much smaller With FCS when compared to HACs. Straight

So... To sum up my suggestions yet again on the matter...

Astarte +1 low and maybe a small sig reduction (-20?)
Absolution +1 low
Nighthawk +1 mid +150ish grid

I'd also highly suggest that Field Commands be given the full tech 2 resists that their Fleet Command siblings have as well as every other t2 combat oriented ship other than Marauders.


Let me know what you guys think about these proposed changes.
Surely You're Joking
#29 Posted: 2012.02.21 20:08
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
[lol100mn NightHawk]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System x3
Reactor Control Unit II x2

Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Domination Warp Disruptor
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Gist X-Type large Shield Booster

Heavy Missile Launcher II x6
Small Energy Neutralizer

Medium Ancillary Current Router II x2

Hobgoblin II x5




*Gives fit weird look* that a tengu?
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Heretic Initiative
#30 Posted: 2012.02.21 20:18
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

I'd suggest dropping one of the Mag stabs in favor of either an active explosive hardener or a corpum c-a type energized reactive. Also get yourself a 2% grid implant (cheap) to get rid of that Ion as well as a 5% med hybrid implant (cheap) and some exile boosters.


You can of course spend Slot 6 on a fitting implant, but I like leaving it open for pirate implants. The suggestion for an explosive hardener is totally legit, but really the tank on its pretty small to start with. I agree though - a real active tank is going to require dropping down to 1 MFS which really hurts your DPS (at least, more than I'd really want). Solid fitting suggestions though. :)

-Liang
#31 Posted: 2012.02.21 20:22  |  Edited by: Andrea Griffin
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Make it so that leadership boosts only apply when on grid. Problem solved.
Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".
Could you spend some time explaining this, Liang? I'm of the mindset that off-grid boosters are a pretty bad mechanic, and that if you're gaining a benefit from a ship then that ship should be, in some way, put at risk. Boosting on-grid only seems very reasonable to me.

Could you explain why it would be a bad idea (or just link somewhere, that'd be fine too)?

Thanks. ♥
#32 Posted: 2012.02.21 20:23
People complaining about the absolution have no clue how to actually use them. Getting over 1000 dps with the tracking of medium guns is insane. A few of them can break through reps of almost any medium sized gang.
Heretic Initiative
#33 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:41
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Make it so that leadership boosts only apply when on grid. Problem solved.
Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".
Could you spend some time explaining this, Liang? I'm of the mindset that off-grid boosters are a pretty bad mechanic, and that if you're gaining a benefit from a ship then that ship should be, in some way, put at risk. Boosting on-grid only seems very reasonable to me.

Could you explain why it would be a bad idea (or just link somewhere, that'd be fine too)?

Thanks. ♥


Ok:
- First, please understand that I have 3 characters with CS5, two of which are max leadership. I will not be negatively affected by any change. I am effectively nerf proof these days.
- Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.
- I remain utterly unmoved by the QQ relating to this problem, and the current system works just fine. Suprious changes to a PVP system this complex are going to have completely unforeseen consequences - and IMO those consequences are going to be negative.
- Forcing gang bonuses to be on grid would mean that people jumping into an enemy would be at a pretty substantial disadvantage. And, there'd be no way to even the battlefield to avoid that by pre-positioning your own gang boosters. To be fair, there's strategic advantages to be had by using a Fleet Command and jumping in with the fleet, but this removes the ability to even the field.
- The mechanics behind being in a Fleet Command just are terribly not interesting. Your DPS is literally pathetic and your tank is so insane that nobody's going to bother shooting you until your entire fleet is dead. Other MMOs give buffing classes far more interesting mechanics like Healing, CC, intercepting damage, or forcing player aggro. You can argue that the mechanics would be more interesting than sitting at a safe spot/POS with an alt, but that's not really true: that's sitting at a safe with an alt, not being forced to endure lacking mechanics with your main.
- Other MMOs don't strip previously applied buffs before going into open world PVP - regardless of if the buffer is at risk. In fact, buff based classes tend to have more interesting mechanics such as CC or forcing player aggro.

I could really go on, but I don't see the point. To me, any imbalances are wholly solved by making T3s probeable (already done, and then recently buffed) and swapping the Fleet Command's 3% and T3s 5% bonuses (a promised move by CCP in the CSM minutes). Superior bonuses will be even more at risk and trivially scanned down.

So I return the question: what specifically are you trying to solve?

-Liang
#34 Posted: 2012.02.21 21:55  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Quote:
Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve .
Heretic Initiative
#35 Posted: 2012.02.21 22:06  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Deen Wispa wrote:
Quote:
Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot


I raise my hand.

-Liang

Ed: Also, forcing them to bounce from safe to safe means they don't have bonuses. ;-)
#36 Posted: 2012.02.21 22:10
Deen Wispa wrote:
Quote:
Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot


Im a small time high sec pvper and I take at least one probe capable alt with me all the time. Any fleet with a real objective (not just some ***** and giggle lazer ferox roam) is gonna have a covops scout. Also, you cant activate gank links while in warp, so to use them you have to be sitting in a safe or pos uncloaked. Clearly you havent a clue what youre on about.

As far ws the offgrid boosting goes, not allowing gang links to activate (excluding the mining links maybe) while in a pos isnt too terrible an idea. Requiring on grid boosting means if you wanna split your fleet up across a few gates or to multiple moons or something means bringing along a pile of link ships and constantly swapping around squad/wing positions which doesnt improve the situation, it just forces you to go through lots of useless bs fleet adjustments or do without.
I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
#37 Posted: 2012.02.21 22:23  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Griznatch wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
Quote:
Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot


Im a small time high sec pvper and I take at least one probe capable alt with me all the time. Any fleet with a real objective (not just some ***** and giggle lazer ferox roam) is gonna have a covops scout. Also, you cant activate gank links while in warp, so to use them you have to be sitting in a safe or pos uncloaked. Clearly you havent a clue what youre on about.

As far ws the offgrid boosting goes, not allowing gang links to activate (excluding the mining links maybe) while in a pos isnt too terrible an idea. Requiring on grid boosting means if you wanna split your fleet up across a few gates or to multiple moons or something means bringing along a pile of link ships and constantly swapping around squad/wing positions which doesnt improve the situation, it just forces you to go through lots of useless bs fleet adjustments or do without.


Fair enough about the bouncing derp on my part. You'll excuse me if I don't take you that seriously when you say you do hisec pvp and you have "real objectives". You're simply praying on the weak as it is and showing the continued risk aversion that is hisec pvpers. Which is the whole point about offgrid boosting. It's minimal risk but great rewards.
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve .
Heretic Initiative
#38 Posted: 2012.02.21 22:27  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Deen Wispa wrote:

Fair enough about the bouncing derp on my part. You'll excuse me if I don't take you that seriously when you say you do hisec pvp and you have "real objectives". You're simply praying on the weak as it is and showing the continued risk aversion that is hisec pvpers. Which is the whole point about offgrid boosting. It's minimal risk but great rewards.


You misunderstood him. He wasn't claiming to have real objectives himself - he was saying that even as a small time high sec "PVPer" he has a prober alt when he roams. He went on to say that any srs bizness roaming gang would also have a prober alt - and I find this to be generally true.

-Liang

Ed: Also, congratulations on simply posting a personal attack and adding nothing new to the conversation. :-/
#39 Posted: 2012.02.21 22:29  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
And btw- there are alot of corps who don't have the personnel to include a prober into their gang. Very few people have the inclination to want to be a prober when they can actually kill someone by being a damage dealer. Few people will want to come on a roam just so they can probe.

Probing is typically reserved for your probing alt.
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve .
Heretic Initiative
#40 Posted: 2012.02.21 22:32
Deen Wispa wrote:
And btw- there are alot of corps who don't have the personnel to include a prober into their gang. Very few people have the inclination to want to be a prober when they can actually kill someone by being a damage dealer. Few people will want to come on a roam just so they can probe.

Probing is typically reserved for your probing alt.


Probing and scouting is actually one of those things that people volunteer for, especially if they're light on SP. Its how I used to contribute to early 0.0 fleets I was in, and I really liked doing the job. Last time I was in an 0.0 alliance it was easier to get probers+scouts than to get dictor pilots. That's not true for leadership boosters who by definition have oodles of SP. Furthermore, a mostly AFK alt to counter a mostly AFK alt.... how appropriate.

-Liang
3 PagesPrevious page123Next page
Forum Jump