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[proposal] limit gang links to a single grid

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Agony Empire
#221 Posted: 2012.02.18 15:16
I think removing off grid boosting will hurt more than it will help and puts too much advantage in the fleet that is already on grid. I know that an off grid booster upsets people but its the only way to insure level playing field. If he's sitting in a pos, oh well, take the pos down. If he's in space scan him down and find him. Even if you don't point him, he must warp and as command mods turn off in warp so the boosters are off also. So task organize your attack and neutralize his boosters. Bring your own boosters to help too, whatever. Everyone has the same ability to boost in a system, but having to be on grid gives ridiculous advantage to the first on grid (defense) and especially to the already too prevalent kiting fleets.

Example, my fleet is trying to catch one or multiple targets in system. Perhaps baiting, perhaps utilizing a warp in from a cloaky. Once the scan is achieved the tackler goes in. I have interdiction manuevers and rapid deployment on. When the tackler arrives we might get the point and lock him down, but only if, and only if, he's not already aligned. If he stays and is kiting still, the rapid deployment and interdiction maneuvers might give the extra boost needed to get the scram and web in what would otherwise fail to reach as they burn out of range. I cannot accompany him into the fight until the target is locked because I cannot boost while in warp. If I have to wait until I pop on grid, target is probably gone as my warp speed is slower. if we fleet warp, then its the slowest warp speed ship to the fleet and that negates the warp in to a large extent due to the target having already moved too far already. Part of the power of the interceptor isn't just mwd speed but warp speed to. If he's tied to my warp speed that scan lock is now worthless as the targets now too far. If we do it right, once the target is locked down then I bring my Mrym in and help with the kill, and turn boosts back on, but I only do this once I know the target/ targets are fully locked down.

If I couldn't do this, then even more targets would just endlessly warp off/burn away and get away/win. Often a target will stay on grid and not warp away thinking he can win with just some little tackler on grid with him. What do you think will happen if I bring in my BC, or a T3 or a command ship. Instant running like 90% of people do already. Plus, often we are trying to do multiple things in the system, like block more than one gate at a time. Now I can't boost system wide. Why bother flying it then? Instead of seeing more command ships/command modules etc, you'll see less.

In other applications, the fleet already on grid will have their boosts running and when the attacking fleet arrives, they may not show up all at once (sure preferred but when warping in at optimals, different ships will arrive due to different warp speeds.) You'll have to wait for boosting ships to arrive and then some of the key boosts such as info and skirmish might already be too late - as certain ships have already been jammed or escaped due to boosts/lack there of.

Finally, on grid is too squishy. I mean you can play grid fu all day long and exploit the grid to your favor to isolate boosters from the combat fleet if your clever. Again, favoring the defense.

The best way to keep it relatively fair is system wide. Sure, they can have a pos, but you know what? You rate some advantage for having a POS. Burn it down, bring your own boosts, whatever. Them being in a pos doesn't negate you bringing your boosts. Being on grid only denies the attacker too many options.
Minmatar Republic
#222 Posted: 2012.02.20 08:37
Leaders should lead, not hide. Unless they're leading their pilots into hiding.

+1
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
The Devil's Tattoo
#223 Posted: 2012.02.21 20:10
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
I like this idea, but I think theres some compromise needed. People pay for alt accounts just to run booster on them. They invested billions in them, either in plex or char bazaar. You cant just take it away from them.

I would make it like that: leave boosters as they are (eventually nerf a little if needed - debatable), but increase their effectiveness by 100% if on grid.



I think this is the main reason why we won't see the change. CCP is very happy that people are obligated to create these alt accounts to be competitive in this game. I think they probably see all the alts that have been created for this purpose.

What they miss is number of people who tend to lose interest in eve because they think dual boxing alts, sucks and yet increasingly you must have these alts to be competitive eve.

Again I think if they gave us crews that we could fill our ships with that would give us the same boosts as the boosters give (no they wouldn't combine with boosters) I think we would have a solution. You could either pay isk for the crew in your ship or you could carry around your booster alt.
Minmatar Republic
#224 Posted: 2012.02.22 02:28
Cearain wrote:
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
I like this idea, but I think theres some compromise needed. People pay for alt accounts just to run booster on them. They invested billions in them, either in plex or char bazaar. You cant just take it away from them.

I would make it like that: leave boosters as they are (eventually nerf a little if needed - debatable), but increase their effectiveness by 100% if on grid.



I think this is the main reason why we won't see the change. CCP is very happy that people are obligated to create these alt accounts to be competitive in this game. I think they probably see all the alts that have been created for this purpose.

What they miss is number of people who tend to lose interest in eve because they think dual boxing alts, sucks and yet increasingly you must have these alts to be competitive eve.

Again I think if they gave us crews that we could fill our ships with that would give us the same boosts as the boosters give (no they wouldn't combine with boosters) I think we would have a solution. You could either pay isk for the crew in your ship or you could carry around your booster alt.


Please don't sully the thread with ideas about crews. When I first started playing, capsuleers flew all of their ships solo. At some point, this changed, and it's not a change for the better. It belongs in a different thread.

Leadership boosts on grid only, please.
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Red Coat Conspiracy
#225 Posted: 2012.02.22 14:23
Mechael wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
I like this idea, but I think theres some compromise needed. People pay for alt accounts just to run booster on them. They invested billions in them, either in plex or char bazaar. You cant just take it away from them.

I would make it like that: leave boosters as they are (eventually nerf a little if needed - debatable), but increase their effectiveness by 100% if on grid.



I think this is the main reason why we won't see the change. CCP is very happy that people are obligated to create these alt accounts to be competitive in this game. I think they probably see all the alts that have been created for this purpose.

What they miss is number of people who tend to lose interest in eve because they think dual boxing alts, sucks and yet increasingly you must have these alts to be competitive eve.

Again I think if they gave us crews that we could fill our ships with that would give us the same boosts as the boosters give (no they wouldn't combine with boosters) I think we would have a solution. You could either pay isk for the crew in your ship or you could carry around your booster alt.


Please don't sully the thread with ideas about crews. When I first started playing, capsuleers flew all of their ships solo. At some point, this changed, and it's not a change for the better. It belongs in a different thread.

Leadership boosts on grid only, please.

Crews were always there in some form or another. I have been playing since launch and I recall from the beginning asking if there were crews in the ships and having an answer of yes from multiple sources. Either way...while I agree that the "crew" discussion is for another thread I do think he is on to something with his idea. Although if crews were introduced and the buff of a crew and fleet booster didn't stack...what would be the point of having a fleet booster at all?
Minmatar Republic
#226 Posted: 2012.02.22 19:26
Why not have gang links work while in warp? The commander boosts whoever is on the same grid that he's on, even in warp. If you're not on the same grid as your commander, you don't get boosted.
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Amarr Empire
#227 Posted: 2012.02.22 21:07
Mariner6 wrote:
Very Decent Example.


To respond to that, why not use a Recon for that sort of job? An Azaru gets nice bonus to point range.

As for the OP.

Whilst I am interested in this change. I would prefer see that the bonus between CS and SC be switched, which I feel is more the more important necessary update. Then allow this change to have some impact on the game first to see if off-grid boosting continues to require addressing.
Minmatar Republic
#228 Posted: 2012.02.23 19:18
More stuff to blow up, less "f4ggy" tactics.

/signed.
The Devil's Tattoo
#229 Posted: 2012.02.23 19:49
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
I like this idea, but I think theres some compromise needed. People pay for alt accounts just to run booster on them. They invested billions in them, either in plex or char bazaar. You cant just take it away from them.

I would make it like that: leave boosters as they are (eventually nerf a little if needed - debatable), but increase their effectiveness by 100% if on grid.



I think this is the main reason why we won't see the change. CCP is very happy that people are obligated to create these alt accounts to be competitive in this game. I think they probably see all the alts that have been created for this purpose.

What they miss is number of people who tend to lose interest in eve because they think dual boxing alts, sucks and yet increasingly you must have these alts to be competitive eve.

Again I think if they gave us crews that we could fill our ships with that would give us the same boosts as the boosters give (no they wouldn't combine with boosters) I think we would have a solution. You could either pay isk for the crew in your ship or you could carry around your booster alt.


Please don't sully the thread with ideas about crews. When I first started playing, capsuleers flew all of their ships solo. At some point, this changed, and it's not a change for the better. It belongs in a different thread.

Leadership boosts on grid only, please.

Crews were always there in some form or another. I have been playing since launch and I recall from the beginning asking if there were crews in the ships and having an answer of yes from multiple sources. Either way...while I agree that the "crew" discussion is for another thread I do think he is on to something with his idea. Although if crews were introduced and the buff of a crew and fleet booster didn't stack...what would be the point of having a fleet booster at all?


Crews would cost isk and possibly be destroyed just like any other mod. An off grid fleet booster typically won't be destroyed.

It doesn't have to be crews it could be some other form of mods. So its not sidetracking to crews in particular. Its just that crews seem an obvious choice since they can be racial just like the bonuses.

The thing is I agree that fleet boosters are nice in that they do give you more complexity in how you fit your ships. The big problem from my perspective is that I have to now start dual boxing an alt if I want to be competitive. Doing that would make the game allot less fun. If there were some way to buy some mod or crew with these same bonuses so I didn't have to drag an alt in a loki everywhere I would do that.
Minmatar Republic
#230 Posted: 2012.02.23 21:39
I still really don't think that self-buffs are the answer here. Leadership boosts are special precisely because they require co-operation and teamwork. Allowing just anyone to have the same bonuses without having to team up with someone else is pretty much the same problem as off-grid boosting in an alt, only tweaked a little.

Squad/Wing/Fleet command needs to be brought back into perspective, and the best way to do this is via on-grid boosting. Preferably in something that's quite survivable. This was the original intention of command ships, and they need to be brought back into that line of thought.

Allowing the module to work while in warp solves the problem of giving the defending fleet the advantage. People crying about now useless alts should consider that leadership in battle wasn't meant to be something you could do while semi-afk. The alts are still useful, just no longer ridiculous. What other problems were people having with this?
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Gallente Federation
#231 Posted: 2012.02.26 19:44
You could give it a long range, and remove the grid-fu problem. It'd probably be easier to code on account of using an existing mechanic as well. Just make it into a huge bubble effect like an interdictor. Probably not as dramatically apparent.
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
#232 Posted: 2012.02.26 21:13
Mechael wrote:
I still really don't think that self-buffs are the answer here. Leadership boosts are special precisely because they require co-operation and teamwork. Allowing just anyone to have the same bonuses without having to team up with someone else is pretty much the same problem as off-grid boosting in an alt, only tweaked a little.

Squad/Wing/Fleet command needs to be brought back into perspective, and the best way to do this is via on-grid boosting. Preferably in something that's quite survivable. This was the original intention of command ships, and they need to be brought back into that line of thought.

Allowing the module to work while in warp solves the problem of giving the defending fleet the advantage. People crying about now useless alts should consider that leadership in battle wasn't meant to be something you could do while semi-afk. The alts are still useful, just no longer ridiculous. What other problems were people having with this?


I can pretty much fit my tech 3 very survivable even with 3 command links. Survivability isn't a problem. I also think command ships are still very tough and in larger fights you can use titans or carriers. I don't really see this survivability problem anywhere really.

Also this is a bit off topic, but related matter. In a sense how powerful these gang boosts are. Gang bonuses and links scale very badly for smaller fleets and gangs. For those smaller skirmishes bonuses you get are very strong. Like think when you have over 20km webs and like 40km points on your ships. This is on ships with no natural bonus on ranges yet. Add there other bonuses and it's totally weird. I would argue that gang links are not balanced at all and in many cases they break natural roles of ships etc.



Minmatar Republic
#233 Posted: 2012.02.27 02:47
Jalmari Huitsikko wrote:
I can pretty much fit my tech 3 very survivable even with 3 command links. Survivability isn't a problem. I also think command ships are still very tough and in larger fights you can use titans or carriers. I don't really see this survivability problem anywhere really.


I agree with you in all ways except for one glaring thing ... no matter how well tanked a thing is, it's not as survivable on-grid as it is off-grid. That's what needs to change. :)
Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Red Coat Conspiracy
#234 Posted: 2012.03.13 13:29
I really wish CCP would spend more time in AH and actually comment more. I know they don't like to as this was made for the CSM but this is one of those things that kind of needs CCP's input.
#235 Posted: 2012.03.13 20:42
CCP benefits from having off-grid boosting, players buy another account to pvp with a dps, logi, etc ship while leaving less attention for a offgrid boosting ship for the other account.

Offgrid boosting encourages players to make more characters and more accounts to increase efficiency without having to double the workload of focusing on more things at once, since you can pretty much leave the off-grid booster afk at a pos and focus on your combat character.

Your change is very unlikely to happen.
The Devil's Tattoo
#236 Posted: 2012.03.13 21:49
Soon Shin wrote:
CCP benefits from having off-grid boosting, players buy another account to pvp with a dps, logi, etc ship while leaving less attention for a offgrid boosting ship for the other account.

Offgrid boosting encourages players to make more characters and more accounts to increase efficiency without having to double the workload of focusing on more things at once, since you can pretty much leave the off-grid booster afk at a pos and focus on your combat character.

Your change is very unlikely to happen.



I agree this is probably the view they have. But its certainly a myopic one.

"EVE online: don't press undock unless you have your dual box alt accounts running!"

Thats pretty much where we are. I am seeing allot of these boosters in faction war. They are fast becoming a requirement.

I have had fights where they had the skirmish links plus a sensor damp making it so I was unable to even *target* them the whole "fight".

The thing is no one likes them. They say they had to get them because others had them. I'm sure most people who run with them would be very happy to not have to do that anymore. Its a real drag on the game as a whole.
Caldari State
#237 Posted: 2012.03.13 23:35
i think on grid can be good but refund me the 5b spent on my alt or give me the sp back
Caldari State
#238 Posted: 2012.03.13 23:37
How about this:

Off grid boosters give half the effect. On-grid boosters give full effect.
The Devil's Tattoo
#239 Posted: 2012.03.14 15:00
Katarina Reid wrote:
i think on grid can be good but refund me the 5b spent on my alt or give me the sp back


The longer they delay in correcting this, the more painful it will be.
The Devil's Tattoo
#240 Posted: 2012.03.14 15:03  |  Edited by: Cearain
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