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Fix the damn logoff tactic!

Author
Goonswarm Federation
#21 Posted: 2012.02.20 19:29
Andre Vauban wrote:
Quebber wrote:
Batelle wrote:
I thought that CCP changed this, however upon inspection of this page, here is my opinion on what happened. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Combat_Timers#PvP_Log_Off_Timer_.2815_Minutes.29

Carrier pilot logs outside pos as tacklers are coming out of warp on his grid. There is no pvp timer, the 1 minute log-off timer is in effect.
Carrier begins aligning for its e-warp
Tacklers lock down the carrier, preventing it from warping away. If the pilot had a 15 minute pvp timer, it would been refreshed at this point. Because the pilot did not have an active pvp timer and was logged off, he did not get a new 15 minute timer.
1 minute after logging off, the ship disappears from space.

yeah, i agree this is stupid. if you are aggressed while logged off under any timer, you should gain a 15 minute pvp timer.


This actually makes sense and needs changing, there is some really skilled scouts out there who can be ready and grab something within that minute, if you get on grid and tackle, shoot it then it should stay.


What is the confusion? The new timers do in fact work like this. If you do not have aggression, you do an ewarp and stay in space for 1 minute, then disappear. Everytime your ship is aggressed (whether you have already logged off or not), you get a new system scoped 15 minute timer before your ship disappears.

We've killed many a ship by having a hero covops pilot scan somebody down within one minute of them logginf, getting point, and then sitting there for 5-10 minutes while we get DPS ships there to kill them.



The confusion is some times it does not work.
Our scout found a carrier
30+ of us managed to get to him and lock/shoot/scram
30 seconds after we are engaged carrier disapeared
That is the issue
#22 Posted: 2012.02.20 19:54
We ran several tests after the patch was deployed. At the time, every result showed that it is not possible to get an aggression timer on a logged off ship.
#23 Posted: 2012.02.20 20:12
I think I know *why* this is. I've seen fleetmates point ships when someone got disconnected so that it couldn't e-warp away from the fleet. Maybe CCP was thinking of this strategy when they implemented the "feature" we're talking about?

In any case, obviously it's hindering combat and ship loss. Logging off as soon as someone shows up in local shouldn't be a "save my ship" button.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
#24 Posted: 2012.02.20 21:05
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
I think I know *why* this is. I've seen fleetmates point ships when someone got disconnected so that it couldn't e-warp away from the fleet. Maybe CCP was thinking of this strategy when they implemented the "feature" we're talking about?


the only good their doing is saving him a few seconds to warp back in when he does log back on. If the change was made that people argue for, this would really screw a guy over if he dc's for a long time, as once the fleet decided to move on he'd be stuck in space for 15 minutes.

Would be a simple matter for people to just stop doing this though, and would eliminate the issue of a character logging to escape imminent pvp aggression.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"

Never forget.
#25 Posted: 2012.02.20 21:09  |  Edited by: Griznatch
From the patch notes for crucible:
Quote:


Combat

Insurance is no longer paid out for players who are killed by CONCORD. The aggression timer for combat has been changed. When logging off in space with PVP aggression, the ship will be removed from space 15 minutes after log-off, or 15 minutes after the most-recent aggressive act against the ship, whichever is the latest.



http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219

The text of the patch notes clearly indicates that for a ship to remain in space the player must have a pvp agression timer when they log out.
I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Repeat 0ffenders
#26 Posted: 2012.02.20 22:07
After reading the patch notes,I stand corrected then. Now I'm curious as to why this seemed to work on several occasions. This happened a few times where our prey jumped out of system and immediately logged. They must of still had an active timer from that last time they were in system then.
#27 Posted: 2012.02.21 00:18
If I may...

21:34:00 - I log off in my carrier at a safe spot and go to make some supper
21:34:04 - Scout warps in, sees my carrier on d-scan, probes it down, calls in fleet
21:34:34 - Fleet agresses my Carrier while I make some cocoa
21:35:00 - My Carrier vanishes, Fleet screams 'CHEATER' or some such pointless phrase

I believe the mechanic is working to prevent 'logoffski' tactics while IN combat. logging off shouldn't leave you vulnerable just because of bad timing, even if the time the scout jumped in system, and my logging off were the otherway round, it doesn't mean I logged off to avoid them, I might just really need that cocoa.


Happy Cartel
#28 Posted: 2012.02.21 02:10
The mechanics are working as intended. The main problem clearly stated by people who experienced the 'logoffski' exploit was that "nothing should disappear if it has gained aggression BEFORE logging off not AFTER logging off. It can still be exploited but it's for the greater good.
Fatal Ascension
#29 Posted: 2012.02.21 03:47
Ya bro if they log without aggression and you get a point on em before they warp its still to Late.Anchor a bubble where he logged have a mate WL him and use a log off trap..We Had this same problem last week on a roam in Vale.
Amarr Empire
#30 Posted: 2012.02.21 05:44
Quebber wrote:

We caught him at a pos outside of shields, we were in frigs and destroyers, locked him down with webs and EWAR, he was going no where and then that was taken away from us by an out of game tactic.




You stated that you Love PVP, I say your lying there, you can't possibly Love PVP. I bolded the WHY from your post.
"I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. He flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. His hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. It was truly majestic. And while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off. Because I am like that." - NEONOVUS
Gallente Federation
#31 Posted: 2012.02.21 09:47
Don't see the problem. Game mechanic working as intended.

People do actually log out of EVE sometimes. Horrific thought I know but it does happen.

Aggro before they log then you have 15 minutes to kill an AFK ship. You did bring combat probes, right?
Minmatar Republic
#32 Posted: 2012.02.21 15:05
I can recall how many times I have heard - we have a point on the carrier, when they actually didn't.
If you did a single lick of dps to the ship with the pilot in it, it can not go anywhere for 15 minutes.
If the ship did logoff, then you didn't have a point or do damage to it.

Logging off is not a tactic - it's a fact of life in the real world.
I'm very sure you would not prefer that your character stay logged in the game when you were not there.
Better yet, if you go afg for 30minutes, you and your ship should be promptly ejected from what ever station you are in, to float in space as a target to all.
Which do you prefer?

Quebber wrote:
Your not really getting what I mean, Logging off should not be a valid tactic in any way, yes I know the 15 mins but that seems to only become active if that the agressive act happens before the person logs.

What I am saying is if your scout jumps in system and manages to tackle a thanatos even if the pilot logged of 5 seconds or 55 seconds beforehand the ship is still a valid lockable target thus if grabbed and agressed 15 min timer should start.

We had 30+ frigs and destroyers scraming webbing shooting this carrier and then it just disapeared.

Tactical Narcotics Team
#33 Posted: 2012.02.23 15:46
My CEO recently aggressed a Tengu in highsec with a Merlin. The Tengu could not kill the Merlin and decided to log off. After 15 min whilst the CEO still had point on the Tengu he suddenly started getting Concord warnings. We even had a GM on grid in a Polaris to investigate the matter.

So there are definitively issues with the ‘Logofski mechanics’ in highsec.

Refer to the following two blog posts for the full story : Broken Toys or Free Golems
#34 Posted: 2012.02.23 16:10
Korporaal Paling wrote:
My CEO recently aggressed a Tengu in highsec with a Merlin. The Tengu could not kill the Merlin and decided to log off. After 15 min whilst the CEO still had point on the Tengu he suddenly started getting Concord warnings. We even had a GM on grid in a Polaris to investigate the matter.

So there are definitively issues with the ‘Logofski mechanics’ in highsec.

Refer to the following two blog posts for the full story : Broken Toys or Free Golems


Curious if there are two mechanics here working, one being the logoff mechanic and the other being the agression timer flagging for Concord not intervening. Meaning for example that because he was disconnected it doesn't refresh the timer allowing you to attack without Concord coming in, but does still refresh the timer preventing the ship from disappearing/logging.

Although I would have thought they are one and the same, but perhaps not.
Agony Empire
#35 Posted: 2012.02.23 18:24

My 0.02 isk worth:

Its already been explained repeatedly that the carrier probably logged off PRIOR to the initial aggression, thereby allowing him to despawn. Changing the mechanics so a ship can gain a 15 minute aggression timer even if he logs off without aggression is really problematic. Almost any ship can be probed and agressed within the 1-minute aggression timer, especially BS sized targets and larger.

The current log-off mechanics are the best they have ever been. Ships now finish their warps and aggression timers can be renewed indefinitely. CCP's done a good job of nerfing the "log-out-to-get-safe" playerbase, and I'm presonally very pleased with the state of things!!!

Minmatar Republic
#36 Posted: 2012.02.23 20:49
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Quebber wrote:
Your not really getting what I mean

try to pvp next time.

or learn to read. Quote clearly says "15 minutes after the most recent attack". That carrier couldn't get anywhere as long as someone shoots it or use any module.

If your story is trustful then make petition because this is obvious bug in agression timer mechanics.

Or undock and try to pvp. You will see.


Dude, don't be like that. This is a discussion forum and if you need PVP then get it in game. The advantage that Quebber has over you or anyone else is that he was there. You were not. I was not.... and I have no reason to doubt that what he said is what actually happened.

T-


Hey Tinu, I'm quitting eve and will double your isk. Send me all your iskies and I'll double them. You should have no reason to doubt me since you can't see my wallet.
How to make mining enjoyable: An Autocannon, Faction Ammo, Your Mouth
Goonswarm Federation
#37 Posted: 2012.02.24 08:42  |  Edited by: Quebber
Reply from GM
Quote:
Greetings Pilot,

Thank you for contacting EVE Online customer support.

Aggression cannot be gained after a pilot logs off, the way the system works is as follows :

Pilot logs off, the system checks his aggro tag and begins a countdown dependant on his tag.
If no aggro the ship disappears after 60 seconds. This timer cannot be extended.
If NPC aggro the ship disappears after 120 seconds. This timer cannot be extended.
If PVP aggro the ship disappears after 15 minutes, this timer is extended by 15 minutes if any PVP aggro is received in this time.

There are a couple of edge cases, for example if someone logs off, is shot and then disappears after a minute. In this case (like the case that happened to you) when the pilot logs back on they will instantly be entered into a 15 minute aggression timer.

Best regards,
GM Haggis
EVE Online Customer Support


So the basis of my original post is valid, I believe the log off mechanic needs a little more tweaking, what I am asking for is the following.
IF a ship non egressed logs off in space that 1 minute before the ship disapears is a valid target and if agressed in that 1 minute then it starts a 15 mins agression timer.

60 seconds, it is a realistic tweak I believe and if your ninja hot scout/prober can find him in that 60 seconds your fleet deserves that killmail whether he stayed to fight or logged off.


Just to be completely blunt, I am NOT asking that an unagressed pilot logging off stay in space for 15 mins, I am simply saying that IF a non agressed pilot logs off and your prober/scout manages to grab him and shoot scram agress in that 60 seconds then it becomes a valid target with the normal 15 mins agression timer.
Amarr Empire
#38 Posted: 2012.02.24 09:47
Quebber wrote:
Reply from GM
Quote:
Greetings Pilot,

Thank you for contacting EVE Online customer support.

Aggression cannot be gained after a pilot logs off, the way the system works is as follows :

Pilot logs off, the system checks his aggro tag and begins a countdown dependant on his tag.
If no aggro the ship disappears after 60 seconds. This timer cannot be extended.
If NPC aggro the ship disappears after 120 seconds. This timer cannot be extended.
If PVP aggro the ship disappears after 15 minutes, this timer is extended by 15 minutes if any PVP aggro is received in this time.

There are a couple of edge cases, for example if someone logs off, is shot and then disappears after a minute. In this case (like the case that happened to you) when the pilot logs back on they will instantly be entered into a 15 minute aggression timer.

Best regards,
GM Haggis
EVE Online Customer Support


So the basis of my original post is valid, I believe the log off mechanic needs a little more tweaking, what I am asking for is the following.
IF a ship non egressed logs off in space that 1 minute before the ship disapears is a valid target and if agressed in that 1 minute then it starts a 15 mins agression timer.

60 seconds, it is a realistic tweak I believe and if your ninja hot scout/prober can find him in that 60 seconds your fleet deserves that killmail whether he stayed to fight or logged off.


Just to be completely blunt, I am NOT asking that an unagressed pilot logging off stay in space for 15 mins, I am simply saying that IF a non agressed pilot logs off and your prober/scout manages to grab him and shoot scram agress in that 60 seconds then it becomes a valid target with the normal 15 mins agression timer.


No if the Carrier pilot did not agress he would not have a 15minute agression timer. He will poof after 1 minute even if he is agresssed by somebody else. if he was agressing and decided to log of. He will be there for 15minutes.

This has been said multiple times in this thread, I don't understand why your not understing this.
"I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. He flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. His hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. It was truly majestic. And while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off. Because I am like that." - NEONOVUS
Caldari State
#39 Posted: 2012.02.24 11:15  |  Edited by: Dr' FUNK
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Quebber wrote:
Reply from GM
Quote:
Greetings Pilot,

Thank you for contacting EVE Online customer support.

Aggression cannot be gained after a pilot logs off, the way the system works is as follows :

Pilot logs off, the system checks his aggro tag and begins a countdown dependant on his tag.
If no aggro the ship disappears after 60 seconds. This timer cannot be extended.
If NPC aggro the ship disappears after 120 seconds. This timer cannot be extended.
If PVP aggro the ship disappears after 15 minutes, this timer is extended by 15 minutes if any PVP aggro is received in this time.

There are a couple of edge cases, for example if someone logs off, is shot and then disappears after a minute. In this case (like the case that happened to you) when the pilot logs back on they will instantly be entered into a 15 minute aggression timer.

Best regards,
GM Haggis
EVE Online Customer Support


So the basis of my original post is valid, I believe the log off mechanic needs a little more tweaking, what I am asking for is the following.
IF a ship non egressed logs off in space that 1 minute before the ship disapears is a valid target and if agressed in that 1 minute then it starts a 15 mins agression timer.

60 seconds, it is a realistic tweak I believe and if your ninja hot scout/prober can find him in that 60 seconds your fleet deserves that killmail whether he stayed to fight or logged off.


Just to be completely blunt, I am NOT asking that an unagressed pilot logging off stay in space for 15 mins, I am simply saying that IF a non agressed pilot logs off and your prober/scout manages to grab him and shoot scram agress in that 60 seconds then it becomes a valid target with the normal 15 mins agression timer.


No if the Carrier pilot did not agress he would not have a 15minute agression timer. He will poof after 1 minute even if he is agresssed by somebody else. if he was agressing and decided to log of. He will be there for 15minutes.

This has been said multiple times in this thread, I don't understand why your not understing this.


What he is now stating is he wants the rules changed so that pilots who log off can be probbed and killed without a fight, especially if they weren't egressed before logging off. His desire for pvp is a lie, he only wants cheap kills on defenseless enemies. His change suggestion is stupid.
Goonswarm Federation
#40 Posted: 2012.02.24 14:38
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Quebber wrote:

We caught him at a pos outside of shields, we were in frigs and destroyers, locked him down with webs and EWAR, he was going no where and then that was taken away from us by an out of game tactic.




You stated that you Love PVP, I say your lying there, you can't possibly Love PVP. I bolded the WHY from your post.


I enjoy all forma of pvp from small group to large, hell I even enjoy pos shoots, I love the amount of people who are replying without even reading the thread.

I fail to see your issue, we had a kitsune with us who was amazingly using ewar.

Ewar is a valid form of pvp or more to the point a valid tool to use in pvp.

My problem with this is very simple.
Logging out tactic is an out of game mechanic being used still to allow someone to get out of a fight.
I am not talknig about logging off in station or at a safe pos or system, I am talking about situations where by a person uses the log off tactic knowing full well a gang is coming to fight.
His carrier was not aligned, he was not watching local or was just an idiot, his friends got inside the pos shield he did not, so he used an out of game tactic to survive an engagement..
You are telling me that is right ?
Our scout managed to grab the thanatos, we all got on grid within 40 seconds and dps/ecm/scrams were layed down, we did not even know he had logged of till his carrier disapeared as he entered armor.

We all had transversal up to stop the pos guns getting lucky.

A person logging of at a pos or safe system has absolutely nothing to fear from this suggested tweak, 60 seconds of vulnerability in space the only people who will loose out is those still using the log off mechanic to get out of combat or loss.

So please tell me why having a ship remain a valid target for the 60 seconds before it despawns whether the pilot was agressed or not is silly or a bad idea because I must be missing something.
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