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hi CCP why are you tearing down the sandbox re: scams

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Nulli Secunda
#21 Posted: 2012.02.24 05:50
This is not in any way new.
We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD!  
#22 Posted: 2012.02.24 05:51  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
La Nariz wrote:
I have some proof that scamming is a draw to the game, take a look at this article from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/business/15views.html

Right there word of mouth advertising for the game and a draw to it.

A good quote from that article: "But the word from Reykjavik isn’t likely to comfort Ebank’s depositors. Eve’s creators at CCP — which employs its own economist and philosopher — take a laissez-faire approach, leaving most such matters to the game’s users to sort out."

Grumpy Owly wrote:
Sorry if someone is making the claim that the Goons playstyle is an improvement to server numbers they have to prove it.


Funny by that logic you should have to prove all of your points which you haven't and can't. I don't have access to CCP's internal server statistics or I would bother with showing you the raw data. I sure as hell am not going to use out dated or off subject data to flail around trying to prove my point while frothing at the mouth in an angry seizure.


So 1 article amongst the 100's of them about EvE in various forms of marketing material substantiates the whole argument. Roll

I placed them as a contra argument to the claims being projected, mainly as we have seen significant evidence in the forums of the differences in opinion represented to the Goons, not as an absolute factual representation.

But I don't want to explore the Goon hate phenomina beyond what is needed to make a point, as I don't have or want to see any motivations for seeing Goons not being a relevant part of EvE. But I'm not going to simply swallow the BS either.
Goonswarm Federation
#23 Posted: 2012.02.24 05:52
Aiwha wrote:
This is not in any way new.


et tu?

it's old news, but it's about trying to get some light on this again
Twitter: @EVEAndski

TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. 
#24 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:06
"A fool and his money are easily separated."

Every time someone comes here and QQ's about getting recruitment scammed I have to listen to them ***** about how they lost billions as a "sign up deposit" or something. How one gets that much money and sp's and doesn't think to research a corp before joining, especially if they ask for buttloads of cash, is beyond me.

While I think these stories are hilarious, I do think that the channels should be used for what they are designed for. Using the recruit channel to scam people with no intention accepting them is really no different than WTB/WTS spamming the channel.
I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Goonswarm Federation
#25 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:10  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Valentyn3 wrote:
While I think these stories are hilarious, I do think that the channels should be used for what they are designed for. Using the recruit channel to scam people with no intention accepting them is really no different than WTB/WTS spamming the channel.


That is a different type of advertisement and those two are not at all alike but I can agree with not letting the channel turn into Jita local.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team.
Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed:
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#26 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:18  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Sorry i dont see it, all I see from the long term graph (which is up to date) is a downard trend to a virtual flat line, there is no serious growth trend to account for and please attribute it to Goons playstyle.


I hope you're aware that time progresses from right to left on those graphs.

Try hovering your mouse over one. They were kind enough to label datapoints, even if they didn't have the foresight to properly label their axes.
#27 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:29
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Sorry i dont see it, all I see from the long term graph (which is up to date) is a downard trend to a virtual flat line, there is no serious growth trend to account for and please attribute it to Goons playstyle.


I hope you're aware that time progresses from right to left on those graphs.

Try hovering your mouse over one. They were kind enough to label datapoints, even if they didn't have the foresight to properly label their axes.


So look at the last years figures, it starts in the 40k+ and stagnates down to the mid high 35k+.

Would you say that is a growth pattern?
#28 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:32
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Sorry i dont see it, all I see from the long term graph (which is up to date) is a downard trend to a virtual flat line, there is no serious growth trend to account for and please attribute it to Goons playstyle.


I hope you're aware that time progresses from right to left on those graphs.

Try hovering your mouse over one. They were kind enough to label datapoints, even if they didn't have the foresight to properly label their axes.


So look at the last years figures, it starts in the 40k+ and stagnates down to the mid high 35k+.

Would you say that is a growth pattern?


Read them again.

Everyone knows Incarna bombed. Subs are climbing now.
#29 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:35  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Sorry i dont see it, all I see from the long term graph (which is up to date) is a downard trend to a virtual flat line, there is no serious growth trend to account for and please attribute it to Goons playstyle.


I hope you're aware that time progresses from right to left on those graphs.

Try hovering your mouse over one. They were kind enough to label datapoints, even if they didn't have the foresight to properly label their axes.


So look at the last years figures, it starts in the 40k+ and stagnates down to the mid high 35k+.

Would you say that is a growth pattern?


Read them again.

Everyone knows Incarna bombed. Subs are climbing now.


Kind of missing the point, I know about the incarna bomb, I know about the crucible enthusiasm. I don't see any real growth to shout about, and I certainly dont see the issues attributable to Goons playstyle which is what the discussion was about.
Minmatar Republic
#30 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:37  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Akirei Scytale wrote:

Read them again.

Everyone knows Incarna bombed. Subs are climbing now.

Incarna doesn't explain the stagnation since late 2009.

Think it's way too early to call whether the current growth is the start of an Apocrypha-like development (which lifted subscriptions from the level they were starting to stabilize at in 2008 to the current one) or just a temporary rise as we saw with Incursion.

Maybe Apocrypha was the exception to the rule and the level subscriptions stayed at through 2008 was the "natural" path of growth for EVE? Empyrean Age and Quantum RIse were not super exciting but weren't bad expansions either... (and with Empyrean Age came the first EVE novel which could have brought eve to a larger audience)
one could argue that only the Apocrypha surge introduced the high levels of volatility we see today^^
maybe the pool of "customers willing to be loyal to a niche game of varying quality" was simply exhausted in late 2007 and since then all CCP did was step up advertising efforts and complement its subscriber base with "customers hunting after the latest flashy".
Remember that while generally well-received Apocrypha was also an irresponsible expansion that not only diverted resources from other projects but also left a large technical debt that had to be paid for in its aftermath (due to shortcuts, ugly hacks, ...) - CCP throwing everything into one (successful) attempt to gain more subscribers while setting unrealistic expectations for the future and decreasing the overall quality of its codebase.

As for "you really want to look at subscribed accounts, not logged in characters" - nope, that's what CCP wants to look at, not what I want to look at. I care how many other characters are in EVE that I can interact with, not how much money ends up in CCP's coffers.
#31 Posted: 2012.02.24 06:57  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Vera Algaert wrote:
As for "you really want to look at subscribed accounts, not logged in characters" - nope, that's what CCP wants to look at, not waht I want to look at. I care how many other characters are in EVE that I can interact with, not how much money ends up in CCP's coffers.


I do take your point that entertainment and fun in EvE is most relevant to the argument. And i would say that the "metric" of in game activity rather than accounts is a more accurate reflection of the level of fun. As a result this value fuels the other nice value of player accounts that we would also like to see improve. As such they are both relevant as accounts pay for game development.

I'd like to see both grow, but will agree that the idea we do play the game is for the fun first and foremost.
C C P Alliance
#32 Posted: 2012.02.24 10:17
I was directed to this thread shortly after I updated the current MotD of the Recruitment Channel a few minutes ago.

To be succinct:
1. Scamming is not forbidden in EVE unless they are facilitated through bugs, exploits and the like. Likewise, if they are conducted in such a manner as to violate the ToS or EULA they will be stopped.
2. The onus of responsibility was always on the shoulders of both parties involved in recruitment. It was stated so in the MotD even, although it did not receive much attention. If the recruit or recruiter got scammed or betrayed in any way, it would be their responsibility for having entered into the deal.
3. For the simple purpose of keeping the channel somewhat usable, posting scams into it was considered off topic and therefore forbidden. Updating the MotD to emphasize this then spun into the current situation, which should now be (hopefully) clarified.
Senior Game Master | CCP Games Customer Support Team

Helping capsuleers since 2004.
Goonswarm Federation
#33 Posted: 2012.02.24 10:37
GM Spiral wrote:
I was directed to this thread shortly after I updated the current MotD of the Recruitment Channel a few minutes ago.

To be succinct:
1. Scamming is not forbidden in EVE unless they are facilitated through bugs, exploits and the like. Likewise, if they are conducted in such a manner as to violate the ToS or EULA they will be stopped.
2. The onus of responsibility was always on the shoulders of both parties involved in recruitment. It was stated so in the MotD even, although it did not receive much attention. If the recruit or recruiter got scammed or betrayed in any way, it would be their responsibility for having entered into the deal.
3. For the simple purpose of keeping the channel somewhat usable, posting scams into it was considered off topic and therefore forbidden. Updating the MotD to emphasize this then spun into the current situation, which should now be (hopefully) clarified.



ALL HAIL GM Spiral! you sir are a ******* hero of the sandbox! Please send my regards to GMs Haggris and Syndemic.


To protect new players against scams, i would like for CCP to implement a giant red warning to be mailed to new accounts reading: "TRUST NOONE"
Goonswarm Federation
#34 Posted: 2012.02.24 10:43
GM Spiral wrote:
I was directed to this thread shortly after I updated the current MotD of the Recruitment Channel a few minutes ago.

To be succinct:
1. Scamming is not forbidden in EVE unless they are facilitated through bugs, exploits and the like. Likewise, if they are conducted in such a manner as to violate the ToS or EULA they will be stopped.
2. The onus of responsibility was always on the shoulders of both parties involved in recruitment. It was stated so in the MotD even, although it did not receive much attention. If the recruit or recruiter got scammed or betrayed in any way, it would be their responsibility for having entered into the deal.
3. For the simple purpose of keeping the channel somewhat usable, posting scams into it was considered off topic and therefore forbidden. Updating the MotD to emphasize this then spun into the current situation, which should now be (hopefully) clarified.


Thank you for clarifying the situation, friend! I'll buy you a beer when I go to the post-Jove expansion Fanfest.
Twitter: @EVEAndski

TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. 
Caldari State
#35 Posted: 2012.02.24 12:32
GM Spiral wrote:
I was directed to this thread shortly after I updated the current MotD of the Recruitment Channel a few minutes ago.

To be succinct:
1. Scamming is not forbidden in EVE unless they are facilitated through bugs, exploits and the like. Likewise, if they are conducted in such a manner as to violate the ToS or EULA they will be stopped.
2. The onus of responsibility was always on the shoulders of both parties involved in recruitment. It was stated so in the MotD even, although it did not receive much attention. If the recruit or recruiter got scammed or betrayed in any way, it would be their responsibility for having entered into the deal.
3. For the simple purpose of keeping the channel somewhat usable, posting scams into it was considered off topic and therefore forbidden. Updating the MotD to emphasize this then spun into the current situation, which should now be (hopefully) clarified.


Nope, you didn't clarify that at all.

Can you be scammed as part of the recruitment process while using the Recruitment Channel. Yes or No?
I am a pod pilot:
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CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Goonswarm Federation
#36 Posted: 2012.02.24 12:48
Desert Ice78 wrote:
GM Spiral wrote:
I was directed to this thread shortly after I updated the current MotD of the Recruitment Channel a few minutes ago.

To be succinct:
1. Scamming is not forbidden in EVE unless they are facilitated through bugs, exploits and the like. Likewise, if they are conducted in such a manner as to violate the ToS or EULA they will be stopped.
2. The onus of responsibility was always on the shoulders of both parties involved in recruitment. It was stated so in the MotD even, although it did not receive much attention. If the recruit or recruiter got scammed or betrayed in any way, it would be their responsibility for having entered into the deal.
3. For the simple purpose of keeping the channel somewhat usable, posting scams into it was considered off topic and therefore forbidden. Updating the MotD to emphasize this then spun into the current situation, which should now be (hopefully) clarified.


Nope, you didn't clarify that at all.

Can you be scammed as part of the recruitment process while using the Recruitment Channel. Yes or No?


You can be scammed.

But people are not allowed to post anything outside of legitimate recruitment advertises in the channel, which means if a Goon writes "Join Goon NOW! Convo me for details" he can get punished for that, just like someone writing "goons stink" or "WTS 10 Hulks only direct trade" as its all off topic
Caldari State
#37 Posted: 2012.02.24 12:56
testobjekt wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
GM Spiral wrote:
I was directed to this thread shortly after I updated the current MotD of the Recruitment Channel a few minutes ago.

To be succinct:
1. Scamming is not forbidden in EVE unless they are facilitated through bugs, exploits and the like. Likewise, if they are conducted in such a manner as to violate the ToS or EULA they will be stopped.
2. The onus of responsibility was always on the shoulders of both parties involved in recruitment. It was stated so in the MotD even, although it did not receive much attention. If the recruit or recruiter got scammed or betrayed in any way, it would be their responsibility for having entered into the deal.
3. For the simple purpose of keeping the channel somewhat usable, posting scams into it was considered off topic and therefore forbidden. Updating the MotD to emphasize this then spun into the current situation, which should now be (hopefully) clarified.


Nope, you didn't clarify that at all.

Can you be scammed as part of the recruitment process while using the Recruitment Channel. Yes or No?


You can be scammed.

But people are not allowed to post anything outside of legitimate recruitment advertises in the channel, which means if a Goon writes "Join Goon NOW! Convo me for details" he can get punished for that, just like someone writing "goons stink" or "WTS 10 Hulks only direct trade" as its all off topic


Nope, still doesn't make sence.

You cannot post anything but legitimate post in channel, i.e. no scams, but at the same time you can be scammed.

It's got to be one or the other. Want a GM responce to this.
I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
#38 Posted: 2012.02.24 13:03
Im a little torn here...
I hate scam....
but....
ppl that want to join goons getting scamed ....
I have no problem with that Bear
No troll.
Goonswarm Federation
#39 Posted: 2012.02.24 13:04
Tore Vest wrote:
Im a little torn here...
I hate scam....
but....
ppl that want to join goons getting scamed ....
I have no problem with that Bear


You're aware that a lot of people in your new alliance are scammers, right? Especially the ISRAD guys - goons never change~
Twitter: @EVEAndski

TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. 
Ineluctable.
#40 Posted: 2012.02.24 13:14
"A fool and his money are soon parted"

It's not CCP's fault, nor is it the fault of the rest of the EVE community, that the above statement holds true. That is just human nature. Rather than try to make a world that encourages foolishness by artificially removing the consequences of acting without thinking, how about leaving things the way they are. If you are stupid enough to fall for a scam then you did not deserve to have that ISK anyway. If you rage-quit because of this then the EVE community will be -1 stupid player and will benefit as a whole.

Think of it as a sort of Darwinistic mechanism where fools tend to weed themselves out over time. If you remove that mechanism then we will simply accumulate more fools who will require more rules, more special treatment and more pampering. This is the road to Hello Kitty Online, where nothing matters because the Good Nanny CCP will always fix things anyway.
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