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What exactly is >>>THE<<< problem with SCs?

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#1 Posted: 2012.02.23 23:27
Hi all,

I have been reading a lot of threads about people talking about the problem with super caps.

One thing i have noticed though is that very few people are defining exactly what that problem is. So what is THE problem with super caps?

It can't be their numbers. Why would there be many of them and it be a problem? In this particular aspect it would be similar to planets, there are many planets in EVE but since they are open to everyone that is not a problem.

Could it be the cost of SCs? The SC is such a useful ship for many purposes that it should cost a lot., so the problem cant be with the cost.

Could it be the inbuild abilities of the super capital that is THE problem?

Could it be play styles that could be THE problem, the way people use them?

If the answer is YES! to the two above questions, then ask yourself: 'Why are these people using their SCs like this?'

Possible answers may be:
- Hot dropping juicy kills in low sec space
- Attack targets of opportunity in Nul sec space
- Sov warfare

Are just a few reasons i thought of, so lets break them down.

- A JF jumps through a gate, starts aligning to a station, his scout has reported one neut in local with no one on the gate. Suddenly a ship decloaks 20km away and lights a cyno, 1 second later a titan is there and its goodbye JF + cargo.

- You have a super carrier warping to a safe POS after a neut/red comes into system, you have been ratting in it. The system is NOT cyno jammed so u need the POS for protection. The neut hangs around for a while, you go afk with the SC still logged on. The neut comes up to the POS and enters it with the password obtained elsewhere and bumps the SC out (the pilot has not told to approach, keep distance or orbit the POS, just stopped). The SC is bumped out, the offending ship lights a cyno and BLAM! Several SCs appear and the AFK pilot is back in a station in a new clone.

- Sov warfare is perhaps the easiest problem to define. A group uses SCs in their majority to counter superior numbers of sub capital ships, the smaller group just can't fight head to head with the other group as the number of ships attacking is the predominant tactic in EVE that works.

Let me say that again: "He who brings the most troops, wins." Now this works when all other factors are equal: similar ships, guns, tactics etc.

But EVE has not been an 'All Equal' game, that is why there are various ships, guns and tactics. Some tactics and ship combinations/numbers work better than others (ala SCs).

So what is THE problem with SCs?

As i see it there are two "problems":

1) Titans and super carriers have enormous tanks and can't be alpha'd, benifit from RR very well, and only die when separated from others.

2) The pilots flying SCs are very experienced in their use and rarely make mistakes.

So the problem appears to be an experienced group of pilots combined with epic ships.

And people want to "fix" this problem by nerfing titan tracking?

How long will it be before people whinge and cry about the nerf not being hard enough to fix this problem?

The problem is with experienced players using epic ships. NOT GUN TRACKING ON TITANS.

Go look at why said ships are used and who faces them.
#2 Posted: 2012.02.24 00:19
Firstly, numbers is a real issue, It is at the point where people can field enough supers to destroy any non super cap fleet with impunity.

Secondly, This is EVE, not WoW or any other generic MMO, there should be no 'best' ship, no ship that WILL beat everything else, right now, the only way to beat a super cap blob is with an even bigger super cap blob, sub caps are pretty irrelevant once supers show up. As it is, most big fights end the same way, sup caps and normal caps fight for a little while, then one or both sides bring in the supers, maybe doomsday a couple of things and then everyone goes home, because there is no point fighting anymore.

Thirdly, and this is similar to the second, Titans can currently track, and pretty much insta pop, battlecruisers and up, and therefore they have no real counter, as they can kill off all the DPS of a fleet very quickly, which is wrong, everything should have some counter that is not just a bigger blob. This is why people are screaming for CCP to nerf Titans tracking.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
#3 Posted: 2012.02.24 02:09
Sovereignty is required to build supercaps, supercaps reinforce sovereignty. This is a bad synergy for game purposes because it eventually makes sov holders untouchable by anyone who doesn't already hold sovereignty themselves, closing the club.

Simply doing away with the sovereignty requirement to build them would fix that without any other changes.

However, they also have that pesky EWAR immunity. Immunities are bad game design because there is no counter for the players to use. Adjusting the EWAR immunity to a (very) high resist would allow players to counter all the other "bad things" people see in supercaps without any further nerf needed.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Agony Empire
#4 Posted: 2012.02.24 02:25
Grey Azorria wrote:
Firstly, numbers is a real issue, It is at the point where people can field enough supers to destroy any non super cap fleet with impunity.

Secondly, This is EVE, not WoW or any other generic MMO, there should be no 'best' ship, no ship that WILL beat everything else, right now, the only way to beat a super cap blob is with an even bigger super cap blob, sub caps are pretty irrelevant once supers show up. As it is, most big fights end the same way, sup caps and normal caps fight for a little while, then one or both sides bring in the supers, maybe doomsday a couple of things and then everyone goes home, because there is no point fighting anymore.

Thirdly, and this is similar to the second, Titans can currently track, and pretty much insta pop, battlecruisers and up, and therefore they have no real counter, as they can kill off all the DPS of a fleet very quickly, which is wrong, everything should have some counter that is not just a bigger blob. This is why people are screaming for CCP to nerf Titans tracking.


^^ This is pretty much it... but I will elaborate with my 0.02 isk worth:

One of the best aspects of EvE is bigger does NOT mean better. When you get into bigger ships, you often gain some dps, some tank, some range, but you also limit your ability to apply your dps to smaller targets, you lose mobility, etc. Essentially, every ship has pros and cons. To kill a battlecruiser, you can ship up and just out-class it OR you could ship down and take advantages of its weaknesses. I've solo'd vaga's, drakes, and ravens in a frigate because those bigger ships have weaknesses I can exploit using a smaller ship.

In most cases, the pros and cons of entire fleets scale up. A fleet of abbadons has the range, superior dps, and superior tank to annihilate a similar fleet of drakes. But those abbadons will get dessimated by a fleet of afterburning zealots and guardians, becuase the BS's can't hit the AHACs for much damage. The drakes shred a fleet of AHACs because they can outrun the zealots, and their medium weapons hit zealots for lots of damage. This is makes EvE a high-tec Rock-Paper-Scissors game, also known as Rochambeau.

The Rochambeau game keeps gang and fleet warfare very interesting, because winning often doesn't revolve around a "best" fleet, so much as a counter fleet. Even carriers, dreads, and supercapitals fit nicely into the Rochambeau game unil the release of dominion. In dominion, SC's and Titans were buffed from fleet support ships into frontline fleet dps ships. With their EWAR immunity, their ability to destroy any class of ship (be it frigates, cruisers, BC's, BS's, or other capitals), their amazing tanks, and their ability to RR each other, a group of supercaps hard to beat. Their RR abilities, tank, and EWAR immunity also mean they scale EXTREMELY well. So, with the release of dominion, the superpowers started producing supercaps en mass.

By the release of cruicible, the number of supercaps in the game grew from a few hundered Pre-dominion to over four thousand. Suddenly, 100-man supercap fleets are not the dream of some super alliance, but the standard sov-fight escallation force.

A 50+ supercap fleet used to have the power to obliterate any fleet on the field, and there was NO counter beyond MORE supercaps. Essentially, the rock-paper-scissors game devolved into rock-paper-scissors-THERMONUCLEARSUPERCAPBOMB. Essentially, the delicate game balances within EvE was ruined, and so CCP stepped in during the cruicible release to tone down the overwhelming domination supercaps were playing in the game. While they made leaps forward, they overlooked titan tracking, such that titans, with their enormous guns, can still decimate any fleet thrown at them.

The reason you see these threads, is people feel the game needs to be balanced. It's totally reasonable for supercaps to represent a potent option to the Rochambeau game... but they need to have a weakness so they can be countered. If the only counter is "more supercaps", then the rock paper scissors supercap game really breaks down and becomes the who-has-more-supercaps game.

This is not acceptable.

No-one really gives a **** about small groups of supers being hotdropped on people... What they care about is the impenetrable assault force they represent when dropped in large groups, especially during sov fights.
Gallente Federation
#5 Posted: 2012.02.24 02:42
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:
Firstly, numbers is a real issue, It is at the point where people can field enough supers to destroy any non super cap fleet with impunity.

Secondly, This is EVE, not WoW or any other generic MMO, there should be no 'best' ship, no ship that WILL beat everything else, right now, the only way to beat a super cap blob is with an even bigger super cap blob, sub caps are pretty irrelevant once supers show up. As it is, most big fights end the same way, sup caps and normal caps fight for a little while, then one or both sides bring in the supers, maybe doomsday a couple of things and then everyone goes home, because there is no point fighting anymore.

Thirdly, and this is similar to the second, Titans can currently track, and pretty much insta pop, battlecruisers and up, and therefore they have no real counter, as they can kill off all the DPS of a fleet very quickly, which is wrong, everything should have some counter that is not just a bigger blob. This is why people are screaming for CCP to nerf Titans tracking.


^^ This is pretty much it... but I will elaborate with my 0.02 isk worth:

One of the best aspects of EvE is bigger does NOT mean better. When you get into bigger ships, you often gain some dps, some tank, some range, but you also limit your ability to apply your dps to smaller targets, you lose mobility, etc. Essentially, every ship has pros and cons. To kill a battlecruiser, you can ship up and just out-class it OR you could ship down and take advantages of its weaknesses. I've solo'd vaga's, drakes, and ravens in a frigate because those bigger ships have weaknesses I can exploit using a smaller ship.

In most cases, the pros and cons of entire fleets scale up. A fleet of abbadons has the range, superior dps, and superior tank to annihilate a similar fleet of drakes. But those abbadons will get dessimated by a fleet of afterburning zealots and guardians, becuase the BS's can't hit the AHACs for much damage. The drakes shred a fleet of AHACs because they can outrun the zealots, and their medium weapons hit zealots for lots of damage. This is makes EvE a high-tec Rock-Paper-Scissors game, also known as Rochambeau.

The Rochambeau game keeps gang and fleet warfare very interesting, because winning often doesn't revolve around a "best" fleet, so much as a counter fleet. Even carriers, dreads, and supercapitals fit nicely into the Rochambeau game unil the release of dominion. In dominion, SC's and Titans were buffed from fleet support ships into frontline fleet dps ships. With their EWAR immunity, their ability to destroy any class of ship (be it frigates, cruisers, BC's, BS's, or other capitals), their amazing tanks, and their ability to RR each other, a group of supercaps hard to beat. Their RR abilities, tank, and EWAR immunity also mean they scale EXTREMELY well. So, with the release of dominion, the superpowers started producing supercaps en mass.

By the release of cruicible, the number of supercaps in the game grew from a few hundered Pre-dominion to over four thousand. Suddenly, 100-man supercap fleets are not the dream of some super alliance, but the standard sov-fight escallation force.

A 50+ supercap fleet used to have the power to obliterate any fleet on the field, and there was NO counter beyond MORE supercaps. Essentially, the rock-paper-scissors game devolved into rock-paper-scissors-THERMONUCLEARSUPERCAPBOMB. Essentially, the delicate game balances within EvE was ruined, and so CCP stepped in during the cruicible release to tone down the overwhelming domination supercaps were playing in the game. While they made leaps forward, they overlooked titan tracking, such that titans, with their enormous guns, can still decimate any fleet thrown at them.

The reason you see these threads, is people feel the game needs to be balanced. It's totally reasonable for supercaps to represent a potent option to the Rochambeau game... but they need to have a weakness so they can be countered. If the only counter is "more supercaps", then the rock paper scissors supercap game really breaks down and becomes the who-has-more-supercaps game.

This is not acceptable.

No-one really gives a **** about small groups of supers being hotdropped on people... What they care about is the impenetrable assault force they represent when dropped in large groups, especially during sov fights.


Pretty much this.

Super carriers are fine as they are. Sure they have awesome tank and everything else but their dps comes from drones that can be countered and don't instapop everything in sight.

Titans on the other hand are near impossible to counter unless you bring more.
Margin of Silence
#6 Posted: 2012.02.24 03:32  |  Edited by: Har Harrison
I'll say it again - give Electronic Attack Frigates the ability to apply their EWAR to supers. Makes them more useful than just filling out an Alliance torny fleet's numbers, gives a counter to titan locking/tracking etc... and can themselves be countered with drones/smaller weapons etc... whilst NOT being counterable by supers themselves. Supers with support can counter them. Supers without support can be pwned by a fleet containing EAFs..
Add in a cool down timer on super's jump engines to stop them crossing the galaxy in < 5 minutes (no bat phone PL from anywhere to anywhere as long as u pick up the fuel tab) and you are in business.
Give super carriers the ability to also have a flight of bombers AND fighters (still no drones) so they can also engage larger sub-caps.
<Insert witty comment here>
#7 Posted: 2012.02.24 04:23
Har Harrison wrote:
I'll say it again - give Electronic Attack Frigates the ability to apply their EWAR to supers. Makes them more useful than just filling out an Alliance torny fleet's numbers, gives a counter to titan locking/tracking etc... and can themselves be countered with drones/smaller weapons etc... whilst NOT being counterable by supers themselves. Supers with support can counter them. Supers without support can be pwned by a fleet containing EAFs..
Add in a cool down timer on super's jump engines to stop them crossing the galaxy in < 5 minutes (no bat phone PL from anywhere to anywhere as long as u pick up the fuel tab) and you are in business.
Give super carriers the ability to also have a flight of bombers AND fighters (still no drones) so they can also engage larger sub-caps.


All good ways to "fix' SCs!
Stark Enterprises
#8 Posted: 2012.02.24 04:51  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
The problem with super carriers is that we have too many sub cap pilots who can't afford them and then proceed to cry about their awesomeness until they get nerfed into a flying tombstone with the focus on being pure eye and easy pray candy for km jewing cane gangs running around the ghetto looking for "good fights" without asking for a fair fight........

Ban sub caps!

Give us capital interdictors and t2 ewar capitals!
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Minmatar Republic
#9 Posted: 2012.02.24 07:20
Titan tracking and numbers.
#10 Posted: 2012.02.24 08:47
Grey Azorria wrote:
Firstly, numbers is a real issue, It is at the point where people can field enough supers to destroy any non super cap fleet with impunity.

Secondly, This is EVE, not WoW or any other generic MMO, there should be no 'best' ship, no ship that WILL beat everything else, right now, the only way to beat a super cap blob is with an even bigger super cap blob, sub caps are pretty irrelevant once supers show up. As it is, most big fights end the same way, sup caps and normal caps fight for a little while, then one or both sides bring in the supers, maybe doomsday a couple of things and then everyone goes home, because there is no point fighting anymore.

Thirdly, and this is similar to the second, Titans can currently track, and pretty much insta pop, battlecruisers and up, and therefore they have no real counter, as they can kill off all the DPS of a fleet very quickly, which is wrong, everything should have some counter that is not just a bigger blob. This is why people are screaming for CCP to nerf Titans tracking.


Some good points here.

Some answers i can put forward, even though i may get some heat from my alliance...

1) To limit the numbers you first have to look at who has how many Titans, what region is making the most and why. I am fairly sure that the Drone Lands would be one area where SC production is very high. It has the end to end resources to make SCs at a very fast rate. Other areas are limited to either mining or buying minerals (especially in the Tech rich regions).

Now, do you think it's a good idea for CCP to limit numbers artificially, or to increase the difficulty of making them? Maybe the CSAAs could cost a lot more PI to make, introduce a super rare planet like Tech moons (limited to high sec only), that CSAAs need? Artificially limit the number of CSAAs that can be deployed in a region operated by an alliance. Increase the production cost and you will see less SCs on the field.

2) In regards to warfare, what battles are the SCs being deployed at? Sov warfare would be the majority of cases. Deploy 20 Super carriers and a few titans and that Ihub is toast in 5 minutes flat. Sov warfare needs to change. At the moment the concept is way better than POS spams, but having a few big fat targets sitting in space is a target perfectly matched to a SC.

Maybe a counter to this is to a) introduce a way for the defender to expend fuel for resistances b) Automatically ajust resistances of Sov equipment based on the types and numbers of weapons attacking it?

3) You have to wonder why anypone would attack a titan with BCs. Its stupid. To nerf pretty much the last weapon of a titan to make it no more than a bridging/boosting ship is a waste. People want titans, they want them to shoot people easily. I personally think that limiting the availability of titans would be more than enough to limit their effectiveness in large battles.

Gallente Federation
#11 Posted: 2012.02.24 10:08  |  Edited by: Bubanni
I personly think a small change to the way jumping works could help a little. as one of the main problems is that you could find a SC ontop of your ship within 1-4 sec after a sb decloaks and points you :) basicly leaving you unable to defend yourself most of the time.

I think they are fine in large fleet vs large fleet, but they have a huge advantage vs people they hotdrop on.

So a "Spool up" time on jumping for capitals could be one way to even the field a little... How long should this take? I do not know, but I would say 5-10 sec would be a start :)

that means if you can kill the ship that opened the cyno before the SC (or other capital) before it can jump, it will be canceled... or if you can kill it just as it jumped, but before it loads... it will not land directly on you, but somewhere random in the system (it does that already)


Also another idea when talking about titans and capital weapons... Currently the signature of the guns also affect the tracking vs smaller ships (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ion_Siege_Blaster_Cannon_I) an example is this capital blaster which has 1000 in Signature Resolution... what if... and im just saying "what if" the damage also was reduced based on signature of the other ship? so even if it can hit, it will hit less based on Signature of ship its shooting / Signature Resolution of the weapon

example drake at 200ish signature would be 200/1000 = 1/5th... so the total damage of a perfect strike would be reduced by 1/5th of the damage (correct me if im wrong, but currently, the Signature of the target vs signature res of your guns only make the tracking worse, not the damage)... you could choose to do this only to capital guns, or you could do it to all guns... if all guns, then it would make things even more interresting for frig fleets and smaller signatured ships... less instant popping of frigs by battlecruisers. (not that I don't enjoy blaping small stuff myself)

what do you think?
#12 Posted: 2012.02.24 11:48  |  Edited by: Headerman
^^^ Sounds like a good plan!

It reminds me when FBs were introduced, CCP changed their 'Torps' to 'Guns' in order for them to miss sub caps. I think a similar rework could be the go there.
The Kadeshi
#13 Posted: 2012.02.24 15:09
Asuka Solo wrote:
The problem with super carriers is that we have too many sub cap pilots who can't afford them and then proceed to cry about their awesomeness until they get nerfed into a flying tombstone with the focus on being pure eye and easy pray candy for km jewing cane gangs running around the ghetto looking for "good fights" without asking for a fair fight........

Ban sub caps!

Give us capital interdictors and t2 ewar capitals!



I wrote before.

Do you know what is the Rock-Paper-Scissors game ?
You can fights against bc//bs fleets with nice tactics. Ahac,bc fleet,t3 fleet,SB fleet, other BS fleet etc can kill BS fleets or vica-versa. Every fleet has chances against the other one with good setup and tactics and at least 10 tactics working against them.
But trying to fight against 500 supercaps with subcaps or common capitals. You have no chance against them and the most important things, all other ship is unuseable too. I have no problem with supercaps , thats part of the game, but their numbers is ridiculous high.

So many pilots have over 100m SP just like me. But no matter if the pilots can fly with 250 ships because all useless against supercap blobs if they cant fly with supercap blobs too. Wasted SPs if enemy just blobing with supercaps.
Furthermore no tactics working against supercaps just one, bring more supercaps than your enemies.

We saw what happened with Atlas, they had hundreds and hundreds cap pilots (they used before 400 dreads in fleets), but they could nothing against 500-600 supercap blob and they losing their spaces within 2 weeks.
500-600 supercapital such a drake fleet. LOL. It's shame for this game.

Over 4000 Supercaps ??? That's really rare ships. LOL
500 titan ? CCP really read their own Eve chronicles from rare titans ?

Need to change this supercap idiotism. Need increasing their value over at least 40-50 billions or more (supercarrier), over 200 billions/titan. The alliance incomes changed dramaticaly in the past years in the game and CCP did not take this into consideration. That's was a big mistake from CCP and thats why their number grew so much.

Need increasing their building times at least 3 months long period, thats slowing down supercaps increasing numbers and give chances to killing them in the CSAA.

Need change rare moon mineral rules. Permanent moon mining materials give advantages for big alliances without fights.

And i almost forgot, the other problem is. The supercaps pilots dont want to be lost their ships, because of this they moving to the biggest alliances where is the most supercaps are. Somehow need to change their numbers in a fleet.
#14 Posted: 2012.02.24 15:20
The ultimate solution to the supercapital problem would be the need of a siege module.

It's pretty simple. That's why dreadnoughts and carriers don't scale well. When the dreads are in siege. It doesn't require more than *what's required to take down a dread* to kill ALL the dreads that are currently on the field.


Here are the supercapitals problems :

Quote:
When you encounter a supercapfleet, the simple fact that every supercarrier has 2 remotes and every supercapital has MASSIVELY ******** RESISTANCES (Which helps a lot in terms of efficiency of remote reps) means that the bigger the supercapfleet is, the harder it is to kill ONE, SINGLE, SUPERCAP.

Every single triage carrier enhance the tank of a supercapital by 150k tanked DPS. You absolutly need to remove EVERY SOURCE OF LOGISTICS before even thinking about shooting at a supercapital.

Titans can blap everything. They actually have a better tracking than a Maelstrom with 1200mms. Yes. You heard that right.

Supercapitals can refit from tracking configurations to tanking configurations if they get primaried, effectively removing the need to choose your fitting before going out on a fight. You can just modify it according to your needs, instantly.


A siege module would fix this.

Supercapitals wouldn't require truely massive amounts of ships to be taken down as they won't be able to RR eachother AND have their offensive capabilities. Same goes for Titans. Apply a "No reps if a siege module is active", a tracking nerf (Just like the regular siege module that wreck the dreads ability to hit subcaps (Actually, sub-battleships) and a "committing to the fight" thing.

Add the "Supercapitals can still online and offline modules, but the onlining of a module from another ship's fitting service will consume 80% of the ship's capacitor". That doesn't prevent supers from fitting and unfitting modules in a POS, that's the minimum they should have, it would be terribly hard to manage a super without that. But refitting on the field is a massive problem when you encounter tracking Titans. The fact that you can adapt in 10s a ship from being the ultimate killing machine to being the undestructable mastodon is simply wrong and doesn't fit anymore in EVE Post-Crucible.

Right now, supercapitals are kind of a guerilla supermachine. They can jump somewhere, kill **** lightning fast while being untacklable by anything that isn't a dictor or a Hdictor (Those will get instapopped by Titan guns), they can refit from tracking Titans to Tanking Titans and get out if eventually things don't go their way.

This is simply too much for one ship-class.

While this is kinda harsh to supercapital heavy alliances, you need to give supercapitals new things to work with. Such as a workable clonebay/SMA thing. With that kind of things, reshipping from a couple supercarriers in a staging POS will be an actually usable strategy. I don't think I ever saw a fleet reshipping from supercarriers SMAs. Why is that ? Because it's hard to use/manage/control maybe.
Stark Enterprises
#15 Posted: 2012.02.24 16:41  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
The problem with super carriers is that we have too many sub cap pilots who can't afford them and then proceed to cry about their awesomeness until they get nerfed into a flying tombstone with the focus on being pure eye and easy pray candy for km jewing cane gangs running around the ghetto looking for "good fights" without asking for a fair fight........

Ban sub caps!

Give us capital interdictors and t2 ewar capitals!



I wrote before.

Do you know what is the Rock-Paper-Scissors game ?
You can fights against bc//bs fleets with nice tactics. Ahac,bc fleet,t3 fleet,SB fleet, other BS fleet etc can kill BS fleets or vica-versa. Every fleet has chances against the other one with good setup and tactics and at least 10 tactics working against them.
But trying to fight against 500 supercaps with subcaps or common capitals. You have no chance against them and the most important things, all other ship is unuseable too. I have no problem with supercaps , thats part of the game, but their numbers is ridiculous high.

So many pilots have over 100m SP just like me. But no matter if the pilots can fly with 250 ships because all useless against supercap blobs if they cant fly with supercap blobs too. Wasted SPs if enemy just blobing with supercaps.
Furthermore no tactics working against supercaps just one, bring more supercaps than your enemies.

We saw what happened with Atlas, they had hundreds and hundreds cap pilots (they used before 400 dreads in fleets), but they could nothing against 500-600 supercap blob and they losing their spaces within 2 weeks.
500-600 supercapital such a drake fleet. LOL. It's shame for this game.

Over 4000 Supercaps ??? That's really rare ships. LOL
500 titan ? CCP really read their own Eve chronicles from rare titans ?

Need to change this supercap idiotism. Need increasing their value over at least 40-50 billions or more (supercarrier), over 200 billions/titan. The alliance incomes changed dramaticaly in the past years in the game and CCP did not take this into consideration. That's was a big mistake from CCP and thats why their number grew so much.

Need increasing their building times at least 3 months long period, thats slowing down supercaps increasing numbers and give chances to killing them in the CSAA.

Need change rare moon mineral rules. Permanent moon mining materials give advantages for big alliances without fights.

And i almost forgot, the other problem is. The supercaps pilots dont want to be lost their ships, because of this they moving to the biggest alliances where is the most supercaps are. Somehow need to change their numbers in a fleet.


<- Rock <- Paper <- Scissor <- Rock
<- Supers <- Sub caps <- Capitals <- Supers

You think in terms of sub caps vs supers only.

CCP's only mistake is listening to sub cap loving hobos who dont like losing their canes without getting a kill. They need to expand capital hulls (with new t2 stuff to counter subs and supers) and nerf the **** out of sub caps. Not make rocks harder to find or so heavy to pickup that nobody bothers playing it.

All these alliances have thousands of sub cap pilots(The true blob), hundreds of capital pilots (The should be lynch pin) and I doubt these alliances could field 3 digit super fleets if they wanted to (Since there are only half a thousand Titans to begin with). So the numbers are not at fault at all. I just hear constant whining about how hard it is to kill something that's so hard to train for, build and fly from people who hate getting wtf owned by it.

And make no mistake, the object of any war is not to die for your country, but to make the other guy die for his. And in a ship that costs 2 kidneys, I wouldn't want to lose it either.

Now go die in a fire.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
#16 Posted: 2012.02.24 17:01  |  Edited by: Cyprus Black
Lets not forget the massive bot mining problem thats running rampant and unchecked by CCP.

They mine 23-7-365 and those minerals are flooding the market. Mass producing supercaps is now cheaper and easier to do than ever.

Stopping the bots = Stopping the mineral flood in the market = increased cost of minerals / decreased minerals available = increases the price to produce supercaps = supercap mass production slows to a steady crawl.

As to whom caused what I'm not sure.
Did the demand for mass producing supercaps drive the mining bot activity up?
Or is the mass production of supercaps merely a result of mining bots flooding the market with minerals?
Summary of EvEs last four expansions:
http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

The Kadeshi
#17 Posted: 2012.02.24 17:41  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Asuka Solo wrote:


<- Rock <- Paper <- Scissor <- Rock
<- Supers <- Sub caps <- Capitals <- Supers

You think in terms of sub caps vs supers only.

CCP's only mistake is listening to sub cap loving hobos who dont like losing their canes without getting a kill. They need to expand capital hulls (with new t2 stuff to counter subs and supers) and nerf the **** out of sub caps. Not make rocks harder to find or so heavy to pickup that nobody bothers playing it.

All these alliances have thousands of sub cap pilots(The true blob), hundreds of capital pilots (The should be lynch pin) and I doubt these alliances could field 3 digit super fleets if they wanted to (Since there are only half a thousand Titans to begin with). So the numbers are not at fault at all. I just hear constant whining about how hard it is to kill something that's so hard to train for, build and fly from people who hate getting wtf owned by it.

And make no mistake, the object of any war is not to die for your country, but to make the other guy die for his. And in a ship that costs 2 kidneys, I wouldn't want to lose it either.

Now go die in a fire.



Realy ? You realy never know anything from supercap fights.
Supercaps always has other support fleet too in the fightst, but not need too much.


<- Rock <- Paper <- Scissor <- Rock = <- Supers <- Sub caps <- Capitals <- Supers ??? Really ?

Subcaps cant kill supercapital blobs, you talking stupid things.
I saw many times 500 supercaps + 200 support ships how fought with over thousand subcap and there the subcaps never won.
Last time i fought where was over 1500 subcaps and they fought against supercapitals but i saw just 1 and 1 titan kill from each side.
And the most ridicuolus thing the over hundreds titans there killed with their ridicuolus tracking some small frigates during motion.

You have doubt these alliances could field 3 digit super fleets. LOL man, the supercapital pilots created supercapblueblobfest in the game. Hundred and hundred Dreads couldn't kill them at least 1 years ago, but you thinking about that, the supcaps can kill them. This supercapbluehordes in the past year demolished mostly the 0.0 parts of Eastern,Southern and Northern territories. Would be able to talk about this: Atlas,-A-,Morsus Mihi, Init, Razor etc.

Oh my....

You have doubt because you talk blablabla, but we can prove it.
I wrote 1 weeks before this and i linked a picture: 2012 Jan 14 Pl/Raiden/Nc./Evoke fleet with +100 titans and +400 supercarriers.

http://iaro.3dmax.hu/images/2012/02/18/20120114112305_4133.jpg

And this is not the biggest one what i saw in the past and they had there a +700 subcaps fleet too (mostly drakes).

So, better if dont talk nothing what is your doubts and better if you talking nothing because you just talking stupid and false things.
Minmatar Republic
#18 Posted: 2012.02.25 03:05  |  Edited by: Hellanna
How about making cynos like WH's. 1 SC would cause the cyno to collapse so to speak. So if you wanted to blob SC's it would take a **** ton of cynos instead of just 1. Remove ability for supers to fit cynos
Minmatar Republic
#19 Posted: 2012.02.25 03:08
multipost
Minmatar Republic
#20 Posted: 2012.02.25 16:16
Hellanna wrote:
How about making cynos like WH's. 1 SC would cause the cyno to collapse so to speak. So if you wanted to blob SC's it would take a **** ton of cynos instead of just 1. Remove ability for supers to fit cynos

then attacking a system would be impossible.

you attack our home system, we have 500 super caps, we got them there last night
you take your cyno alts in, you have a few options
cyno all in one spot, cyno all in random spots either way your screwed.
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