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Incoming titan adjustments

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Goonswarm Federation
#1541 - 2012-03-14 14:54:44 UTC
Triskian wrote:
Good morning thread. I see some of you have been busy overnight.

Can someone recap the last 11 pages for me please?


PL/Raiden continue to ignore all arguments to the contrary, and keep pretending that they're a battered alliance of 200 desperate people fighting 1600 goons, and the only thing saving them is their not-overpowred titan "equalizers".
Caldari State
#1542 - 2012-03-14 14:54:57 UTC
Triskian wrote:
Good morning thread. I see some of you have been busy overnight.

Can someone recap the last 11 pages for me please?


rage
#1543 - 2012-03-14 14:55:21 UTC
honestly Titans should be like battlestars... give them Air Superiorty Fighters... max 10 that are designed to kill other fighters/FB...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Goonswarm Federation
#1544 - 2012-03-14 14:57:12 UTC
Triskian wrote:
Good morning thread. I see some of you have been busy overnight.

Can someone recap the last 11 pages for me please?


It's like your typical Friday morning at the fraternity house. Goonswarm Federation is laying back in bed, arms behind his head in a post-coitus smug, all of his pubbie bros are in the hall outside just waiting for the latest conquest to come out, and NCDOT/RAIDENDOT are in the bedroom putting on last night's soiled party clothes, trying to fix the smeared mascara and tearfully contemplating the forthcoming walk of shame back to empire.
#1545 - 2012-03-14 14:58:01 UTC
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
The amount of neutral PL/Raiden alts in this thread, desperately clinging to the entitled notion that they should be allowed to fly around in unkillable ships because they paid a little more isk, is amazing. When every other ship in the game can be killed by subcaps, but you drop titans and suddenly subcaps are meaningless. If 1600 people show up to take someone's space, and they can only field 200 guys, then THEY DO NOT DESERVE THAT SPACE. This is how the world works. You should not magically be allowed to pick space and control it because you can stick 50 guys into a super ship, and stand it up to 1600 people.


OMG, really? You are really, really disturbed son.
So we paid a little more iskie...just a little. A LITTLE ?
You come with 1600 maels and wanna kill 50 titans?

Man, I'd like to have what this guy smoked, seems to be good shite.
#1546 - 2012-03-14 14:58:27 UTC
Triskian wrote:
Good morning thread. I see some of you have been busy overnight.

Can someone recap the last 11 pages for me please?



Oh my god they are nerfing my titan!!! MY TITAN!!!!!!!!!!! oh and the ever present Goons are winning eve!OMG they will take all of 0.0!!!
Goonswarm Federation
#1547 - 2012-03-14 14:59:59 UTC
Acwron wrote:
OMG, really? You are really, really disturbed son.
So we paid a little more iskie...just a little. A LITTLE ?
You come with 1600 maels and wanna kill 50 titans?

Man, I'd like to have what this guy smoked, seems to be good shite.


tbh there's easier ways of relieving you of a titan than killing it

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Pandemic Legion
#1548 - 2012-03-14 15:00:43 UTC
i think everyone can agree that titans need to be revised, however doing a knee jerk fix because people don't want to properly counter titans is not the way to go about it. Rather then messing with the scan res and locked targets etc, why not just keep the nerf to tracking until you are actually able to sit down and define a role for this shipclass.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
The intended role for titans is a) jump bridging, b) doomsdaying things, c) fleet boosting and d) doing a decent job of killing capitals with their main guns.


ok, it's clear the titan needs to be removed as a primary fleet weapon so a) bridging is fine as is, would be nice to increase jump range for titans though if you want them to have more of a support role. b) define "doomsdaying things", because as is it can only DD caps (which is fine at the moment) There's been a lot of talk about bringing back AOE DD but make it sig based and for only 50% of the damage they used to do. c) They're doing their job with this role at the moment d) they need to be more then "decent" at killing capitals with their main guns. If you want titans and supercariers to be anti-cap ships then they need to be highly effective at this.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We'll be assessing the success of this change based in the first instance on whether or not players are still telling us they're having problems with this sort of thing, and then if they are, looking at the situation objectively and seeing if it merits further work.


We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.


CCP Greyscale wrote:
We don't currently have a clear future vision for titans, as mentioned in the first post. We've repeatedly tried and failed to find a role for them that we're happy with in the past, and we don't want to spend significant balance resources on revisiting this right now because we have other priorities.


Ok that's understood, but instead of breaking the ship even more why not wait until you have a clear vision on what you want the titan to be before making surgical adjustments? There's several ways you could go with this,

a) remove titans from the battlefield and make them dedicated support ships - keep fleet boosting, buff jump range/bridge range, increase ship bay and remove turrets from the ship completely and give it AOE DD sig based (keep in mind though, this ship still needs to be able to defend itself against subcaps, just like any other ship in EVE that has the ability to defend themselves) you can scream "support fleet or stay home" all you want, but with all things equal it's only fair. With that said, the bump mechanic really needs to be fixed. Anytime you move a large number of capitals you will eventually get the delayed bump and send caps flying sometimes several hundred km out from fleet.

b) Dedicate the titan as only anti-cap ship (of course still able to bridge, fleetboost etc) and make the titan only able to target caps/supercaps, in turn, subcaps can no longer lock titans either. People will argue that "hey that's not right, subcaps should still be able to kill titans!" However, they also at the same time scream that to deal with a subcap fleet you must bring the proper counter to them ie other subcaps, well same thing here, if you want to deal with the titans on the field you need to bring your own caps/supercaps to deal with them. Also heard an idea that you could remove the heavy interdictors ability to tackle supers and reassing that role to carriers with the same scripted module.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We can't offer any assurances about our future plans. Every release (~6 months) we sit down and look at what our priorities are. I would also note here that we're doing this "quick fix" precisely because we don't know when we're going to have a comprehensive solution - we regard the current situation as broken, and we don't want to leave it broken indefinitely while we wait for a "proper fix" with no clear timetable. This is the best way to deal with this general sort of problem in our opinion.


As I said earlier, why not sit down and find a actual role for the ship and not "punish" the people who have dedicated time and isk to fly these ships with a half a***** solution to the problem. Sure, nerf tracking 50% for now but leave everything else with the ship alone until you can dedicate the time it deserves. As your changes stand right now, it will still be broken and you still have people complain about getting blapped. You'll only be catering to certain entities with your changes right now and the general feeling is that you are trying to make EVE more about a numbers game, is that your vision of EVE? Not trolling this is a serious question and if it's not about numbers then CCP needs to come up with a better way for smaller entities to take on much larger fleets.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're considering additional changes to balance out this adjustment; we'll do it if we feel it's necessary, but we'd prefer to make as few changes as possible at this time.

We're also considering ways of letting people "park up", but we can't make any commitments about that this morning.


As long as youre not set on the changes you've proposed and take actual constructive feedback other then "hahaha death 2 all supercaps!" and make reasonable changes that's great
Goonswarm Federation
#1549 - 2012-03-14 15:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
Variable1 wrote:

If you want to change the Titan role from subcap blob equaliser to structure bashing cap killers then fine. I can support this. But only if you make other changes that would mean Titans would get to be used in this way.

For example. There is no point in being cap killers if no enemy uses caps.


Do you really not realize that these two problems are related?
(it's also flatly wrong to say nobody uses caps.)
WE FORM V0LTA
#1550 - 2012-03-14 15:02:44 UTC
GeneralDisturbed wrote:

Better pilots already win. As it's already been stated -and ignored- by Pl/raiden in this topic again and again, numbers aren't the issue here they are desperately trying to make it out to be. Those 1600 people don't exist. The people fighting goons consistently bring the same number of pilots as us. The only difference is when that doesn't work, they drop invincible ships to win the battle. This is not world of warcraft. Paying a little more for a ship, or having a few more skillpoints than a guy, should not make you invincible. A small gang of well flown ships can wipe out larger battleship gangs. I've seen it happen in blackops. A small fleet of well flown battleships can wipe out a larger fleet. You know what wipes out a titan fleet? MORE TITANS. You know what a small alliance wanting to move into 0.0 space to hold a small area can bring to fight those titans? NOTHING. So you either join a titan heavy alliance, or you just don't live in 0.0.


Cheers, that makes sense. Also I know that the losing side always cries "BLOB!11!!" in EVE, the actual numbers are not really relevant :D

What about the claim I've seen that dreads can also counter titans?

And about titan tracking (current version) - can they track for example BCs that are in close orbit?

My Talos one-shots moving frigates at 40km, but can't touch them if they get close- this is balanced. How is it with titan guns?

.

Goonswarm Federation
#1551 - 2012-03-14 15:03:19 UTC
Slapnuts McGee wrote:

We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.



This is actually somewhat true. Strong drop does adjust things back to a broken state.
#1552 - 2012-03-14 15:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
The Mittani wrote:
Strange bedfellows. I was among the most vocal in criticizing Greyscale for not consulting with the CSM about the anomaly nerf, and yet here I see him slandered by a legion of altposters from RDN and NCdot for 'not consulting' when he actually did.

The hard fact is that Titan pilots are .3% of player population, Titans shouldn't be able to impact subcaps, and everyone - except for PL's reps on the council - agrees that this needs to happen.



As usual I'll post with my main, and yes I'm in Raiden but most people on here know I'm fairly level headed/fair

A titan should be able impact subcaps, an aircraft carrier can put a sizeable hole in a fishing boat can it not? Really if someone bothers to field 25 titans (your guys as well) you really should be able to wipe out a sizeable subcap fleet. This is the payback for the time and money invested in these ships.

If you follow this logic basically when you get people complaining that 50 battleships take out 100 frigates they should be nerfed?

I can only applaud your socialising skills whilst in Iceland, as usual CCP seem to take the path of least resistance when it comes to nerfing.... sorry rebalancing.

A few boosters should change it back though.

*edit* I am not a Titan pilot and to be honest would have to be paid large amounts of cash to even think about getting in one. I actually feel sorry for the people who continually spend vast amounts of time and isk only for it to be screwed for the betterment of people who haven't

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Pandemic Legion
#1553 - 2012-03-14 15:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadoo
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The intended role for titans is a) jump bridging, b) doomsdaying things, c) fleet boosting and d) doing a decent job of killing capitals with their main guns.


This is helpful, thank you so much.

To follow up on each of these intended roles, if I could ask you a little further on your thoughts how the current ship in your opinion will perform these roles.

a) jump bridging -- have you given any thought to increasing the jump range to compensate for recent HP nerfs and current combat role change to boost this role a bit more especially in regions with very large distances?

b) doomsdaying things -- currently every capital in game can tank a doomsday if fit for ti and if they can see it coming. In the future the situations where the doomsdays will likely be fired is going to be under TiDi load which will give the pilot sufficient reaction time to watch for DD and overload in time. With the metagame/fittings changing on battle field -- have you given thought to how balanced the current DD damage is for your intended role?

c) fleet boosting -- this is somewhat underused role today for the titan, mainly because it is rather restrictive in it's current implementation and because Tech 3 ships accomplish much the same at higher gang link bonuses without any of the restrictions associated with the titan. You can effectively only perform this job with a titan if you 1) know where the fight will happen and 2) own a control tower in the system. This limits it largely to defensive-only deployments.

In addition most FCs want to actually be positioned in the FC slot themselves in order to probe and warp to results as a fleet, which leaves the option to assign fleet bonuses. This in turn requires the ship to be in a position it can be gang warped by a rogue squad leader or accidentally warped by wing/fc. In addition -- the assigning of bonuses on TQ in my experience is very much a hit & miss -- unreliable at best.

Have you considered boosting the Titans role in this at all to match the gang link abilities of the Tech 3 ships together with the ship bonus? Are you looking at the problems associated with assigning fleet booster?

And lastly -- are you happy with the highly restrictive use of titans in the bonus role since it needs to physically be where the fleet is in order to give these bonuses? Are there plans to make this less restrictive and thus make the Titan be valuable for fleets outside of very few actual scenarios?

d) doing a decent job of killing capitals with their main guns.

OK, this one I find interesting. Mainly to assess your thougths as to how well you think the ship is able to achieve this role.

Let's take the Erebus as an example -- on combat field with capitals involved you will find every erebus with a EHP fit on (dmg control, 2x a-type eanm, 4x x-type hardener). It has named guns fit.

In this realistic fit on field -- the Erebus does 6219 DPS before implants.

In same scenario Moros will likely be fit with T2 siege/T2 mods and regular capital guns. It will likely be a non-coward fit with 3 magstabs.

In this realistic fit on field -- the Moros does 12201 DPS before implants.

The Erebus has ~22mil EHP while the Moros has 2.5mil EHP. Moros will lock the target in fraction of the time, the Erebus can DD any of the dreads every ~11 minutes (lock time included).

I'm a little... underwhelmed here with the turret DPS in the intended role as anticapital ship when compared to let's say a Supercarrier. Especially given the price tag of the fittings and the hull itself.

And that's taking into account the best titan on field which is able to fit sensor boosters to compensate with the lock time. I've not even dared to look at my poor Leviathan and if it can actually even fire a single DD before the fight is over since the lock time is likely to be... well...

What are you thoughts on how well the Titan will perform your intended role as a main gun damage dealer to capitals, given the damage output of easily replacable and available (not to mention insurable) Dreadnaught hulls?

And as a Leviathan owner, do you think I will ever be of any use in this role given the fact I cannot have any sensor boosters and my Torpedoes take a minute to travel to target (now multiply that with 20% TiDi)?

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We'll be assessing the success of this change based in the first instance on whether or not players are still telling us they're having problems with this sort of thing, and then if they are, looking at the situation objectively and seeing if it merits further work.


Will you be testing and asking for feedback prior to implementation on SiSi? Essentially, I'm asking if there will be an avenue for us to provide more comprehensive feedback to you based on actual numbers before you commit the changes.

... I will continue on points in next post thanks to forum :wordiness: limitations ))
Caldari State
#1554 - 2012-03-14 15:06:07 UTC
Acwron wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
The amount of neutral PL/Raiden alts in this thread, desperately clinging to the entitled notion that they should be allowed to fly around in unkillable ships because they paid a little more isk, is amazing. When every other ship in the game can be killed by subcaps, but you drop titans and suddenly subcaps are meaningless. If 1600 people show up to take someone's space, and they can only field 200 guys, then THEY DO NOT DESERVE THAT SPACE. This is how the world works. You should not magically be allowed to pick space and control it because you can stick 50 guys into a super ship, and stand it up to 1600 people.


OMG, really? You are really, really disturbed son.
So we paid a little more iskie...just a little. A LITTLE ?
You come with 1600 maels and wanna kill 50 titans?

Man, I'd like to have what this guy smoked, seems to be good shite.


Sorry about your iskies bro Sad Guess you'll have to go back to flying subcaps like 99.98% of the rest of EVE Pirate
#1555 - 2012-03-14 15:06:13 UTC
Andski wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Andski wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
This is bullsh!t and you all know it. A titan should be able to track all ships. It's biggest, therefore it has to be best.

--
Sincerely, Death Star.


nope

sincerely, me


Someone did not get the joke? :)


i have a hangover so yeah i kinda missed it


You seem to have a perpetuum hangover, just like every other goon.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1556 - 2012-03-14 15:06:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
Based on simple geometry, at some point in your orbit of the anchor you will have a transversal of ZERO (or close enough to call it zero) and the signature radius of a carrier.
…which can be avoided with a bit more involved flying. The situation you describe has next to nothing to do with the presence of an MWD, and turning an MWD on does not simply make a target as easy to hit as a carrier.


Do a lot of "involved flying" in large fleet fights, do you? I supposed if you are with a good anchor who is doing more than "keep at range" you might get a bit more transversal up to a single opponent. The issue that Vile Rat has (and I don't disagree with the issue) is that when you have a lot of turret Titans on grid, at some point you are going to have a really low transversal to some of them. The problem isn't a single Titan (although that is a separate problem), the problem is a fleet of them. So what CCP has tried to do is to ensure that even if you have the SP and ISK to field a fleet of Titans, you can't hit subcaps. But they missed the target. A fleet of Titans will still be able to hit sub caps, it will only take them longer to lock the target, and they will still do the same amount of damage as today, it will only take a bit longer (a lot longer in TiDi).

Think about it:
Bridge onto field. (0 seconds)
Call targets and start locking (2 seconds)
Finish Locking 3 targets (35 seconds)
Fire at Target 1 (35 seconds)
Start Locking next target (36 seconds)
Fire at Target 2 (50 seconds)
Start locking next target (51 seconds)
Fire at Target 3 (65 seconds)
Lock Target 4 (68 seconds)
Start locking next target (69 seconds)
Fire at Target 4 (82 seconds)
...

and the cycle goes on. Even with 3 targets and a stupid scan resolution.

So what does CCP fix with this change?

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.

Pandemic Legion
#1557 - 2012-03-14 15:07:28 UTC
.... and continuing from previous post

CCP Greyscale wrote:
On systems under Time Dilation, we're expecting this to work mechanically identically but subjectively slower. Time Dilation is a technical fix to prevent performance issues on heavily loaded systems; it's not a game mechanic and we're not currently considering it for balancing purposes.


I'm a little sad to hear this. Mainly because you obviously ARE considering the number of these ships for the purpose of balancing, but you will not consider the wider system numbers for same in regards to TiDi.

For example --I don't think you will tell me that 1 titan today is not balanced for combat, while I will agree strongly with you that 20 of them are. So if we are now (and rightly so) considering non-game mechanics (the number of them you bring) for balancing purposes, we surely must also consider the situations they are likely to be utilized?

The reality is that TiDi changes the game mechanics, and allows certain tactics to function effectively more efficiently given the additional time pilots have to react. In terms of Titans following are going to be the case:

1. Doomsdays will be much more easily spotted, and therefore the pilot of the targeted capital will have time to react and a) overload hardeners in order to tank the DD or b) if aligned warp out.

2. Missile based Titans will have their damage effectively mitigated by the 10 minute travel time to target.

3. Locking will take exponentially longer, thus allowing the locked pilots to react to time to damage by calling for reps prior to damage being applied.

I could go on, but essentially TiDi does change the game mechanics as we have seen already on TiDi. Don't get me wrong -- I think it's great, but since you are already taking into account how many of these ships people bring for game balancing -- all I'd ask is that you extend the same envelope to include the numbers people bring to field where these ships are typically used and the effect TiDi has on things such as Locking Speed, DD evasion and Capital Torpedoes/Cruise Missiles.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We don't currently have a clear future vision for titans, as mentioned in the first post. We've repeatedly tried and failed to find a role for them that we're happy with in the past, and we don't want to spend significant balance resources on revisiting this right now because we have other priorities.


I appriciate this, but given the combat role of these ships -- I think you will find that without more significant changes to the ship you will either not go far enough with the change or you will effectively make them useless in the currently stated anti-capital combat role.

I really wish you will take the time to consider how to move these ships OUT of the current combat role, given the fact just how hard it has been to balance these ships in that role as you yourself state -- and give them an exciting new role that benefits the collective that owns them and gives the new subscribers to this game something to work towards in the long term.

Short term fixes have a nasty habit of turning into long term features, which simply serve as a time-delay for the problem at hand. And I think you will find there are too many of these things today in active use or in active build to be able to deal with this in any "quick fix" capacity without simply making the problem worse to solve in the long term.
Pandemic Legion
#1558 - 2012-03-14 15:08:47 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:

We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.



This is actually somewhat true. Strong drop does adjust things back to a broken state.



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.
Goonswarm Federation
#1559 - 2012-03-14 15:11:05 UTC
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:

We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.



This is actually somewhat true. Strong drop does adjust things back to a broken state.



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.



Would you be happier with -75% instead of -50%?
Goonswarm Federation
#1560 - 2012-03-14 15:12:29 UTC
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:

We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.



This is actually somewhat true. Strong drop does adjust things back to a broken state.



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.

less broken is an improvement

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

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