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GOONS RECRUITMENT SCAM

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#1 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:49
I would like to say a big thank you to my friend who finally got me this information.

This is straight from the goonwaffe web forum page I have not changed a word other than the first word from My to The.

They do Corp Scams as well:

This is the biggest money maker and my friend stated that some people have made 17bil in 1 go with scamming Corporations to move to GoonFleet Alliance.


SO the Scam:

A Newbie's Guide to Scamming

The main method of scamming is the recruitment scam. It's easy to get into, doesn't take any special skill beyond the ability to talk to people, and doesn't take long to pull off. The goal of this guide is to show you where to find good targets, walk you through everything you need to do for a successful scam, and show you how to respond to common snags along the way. It's broken up into sections within spoilers. Future sections generally assume you understand previous sections.

STEP 1: FINDING A MARK
The number one question people have asked me is, "Where do you find these people?" I have a few goto sources, but this by no means an exhaustive list. As a more veteran scammer, Jack Gates, has said, everyone who isn't blue is a mark, or a friend of a mark. The places where I find the highest concentration of dumb pubbies, however, are:

1) The recruitment channel
It's the standard place to find a mark. Go to your chat window, hit the little text bubble in the upper right, and type in "recruitment" in the box. Hit enter, and you're in. The number one thing you have to remember is NEVER TALK IN THE RECRUITMENT CHANNEL. I don't care if you have a funny response to the inane pubbie chat, I don't care if you're sure your advertisement will draw in a mark, SHUT THE **** UP. At any time, there are probably 10 unseen goons idling in the channel looking for a mark. You don't know it, but when you talk in the channel, you have made 10 people intensely hate you.

Here's why: You'll say whatever, and the next ******* pubbie will say, "lol, goon." Then the next ******* pubbie will say, "Who are goons?" And the third ******* pubbie will say, "Goons scam. Don't talk to them." And congratulations, you have ruined the recruitment chat channel for at least the next hour while the idiots jerk themselves off talking about how ****** we are. Don't be that person.

Also note, CCP has recently changed the rules to forbid scamming in the recruitment channel. How this works, I don't know. To my knowledge, no one has been banned for using the channel to find a mark, only for posting false ads on the channel. Don't post in it, and just start a private conversation with each mark, and you should be fine. I have heard some people have been warned, your milage may vary.

PROS
-People posting in the channel are the most stupid of all the pubbies
-Your marks are guaranteed to be online when you find them
-You can keep the channel open in the background and just check on it every once in a while

CONS
-One stupid goon can ruin the channel for hours
-Your marks, upon posting, are being inundated with convo requests from every stupid pubbie corp in the game. Sometime's it's hard to get their attention.
-You have to listen to the stupidest people on earth post. Seriously, there are recruitment channel regulars who don't even recruit, and they're ********.

2) The recrutiment forums on Eve-O
This is my second go-to for marks. I like going there when the recruitment channel is slow, or everyone is offline. Hit your browser button, hit the "forums" button near the top of the screen, and navigate down to Alliances and Corporation Recruitment or something like that. Inside is a mix of pubbie corps with stupid advertisements for recruits and pubbie recruits with stupid advertisements for corps. Let's look at an example, shall we?

"Returning 26mil sp pvp pilot lf corp"

"I'm gonna make this short and simple, i just took a 3 month break, I have 25.9mil sp. Looking for lowsec yarring or nullsec pvp...
I am a full time student so i cant make CTAs and **** all the time. I fly alot of ships, mainly gallente, but have cadari cruiser 5 as well. Currently training for Thanatos.

http://eveboard.com/...ne/ships?type=1

Contact me here or in game."

So what you're looking for in these posts is a pilot looking for (lf in pubbie speak) a corp to join. This pilot has 26 mil sp, or skill points(all of the pubbies really care about this number; it's usually the first thing they will mention), so he or she (he) is probably 2 years old. The general rule is that you gain about 10-20 million sp in a year. He's looking for lowsec yarring? (Probably meant warring, I don't ******* know, he's an idiot who can't write correctly in his own job application) or nullsec pvp. He flies gallente ships, so we know he's an idiot. He's training for a Thanatos, which is the gallente carrier. He doesn't like CTAs, which are calls to arms. Apparently these are required defense ops in pubbie corps?

So here's a guy who's looking for something like GoonWaffe, and he has a goal we can easily prey on, the chance to get into a Thanatos for cheap. Good target. We get his name, go to People and Places, and search for it under characters. When it pops up, we right click and select "add to contacts." We set him neutral, and check the box that says alert if online or something like that. Now he will be on your watch list, and you can see later if he's available to scam. Also, you should probably right click on his character and hit show info, go to the notes tab, and copy and paste the whole post into it. That way, when you contact this guy later, you remember what he's looking for. Take notes after every interaction, so you don't get caught in a lie later on.
#2 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:50
PROS
-Again, you can do this on your own time.
-You're more certain if your target is stupid if you pick them from an obviously stupid corp.
-Volume

CONS
-You have to spend more time looking, since targets might be less concentrated.
-There's no guarantee you'll find the perfect target.
-Pubbies are so ******* stupid; I hate them so much.


Ok, that's where you find them, but what are you looking for?

Honestly, anyone looking for a corp is a potential mark, but some will be more suitable than others. You're looking for the right mix of desperation, ignorance, and greed. You want to make them eager to join your corp, while making sure they don't know anything about how goons scam. My best targets fall into a few categories, but again, this is only a general guideline. Anyone is a potential target.


1) 10-30 mil sp players looking for something new/0.0

These are players who have probably stayed in high sec for the last 6 months-2 years they've been playing this ****** game. Predictably, they're bored out of their minds because they have spent the time mining or mission running. They probably have a decent little nest egg, either isk or ships, but usually not vast riches.

They're looking for something, anything, that will be more fun and justify the money they have spent playing this ****** game. This might be incursions, worm holes, or null sec. They may not have the best idea of what these terms mean, they just know they're different, exotic, make money, and often require a certain number of skill points (sp). You'll see a lot of corp ads with a required sp number, which is just stupid, but it reinforces the idea that these newbies have to wait in high sec until they are allowed to have fun. Steer them towards the cool pve **** and pvp **** you do. Emphasize the benefits that goonfleet provides, and you'll have them drooling.

Often, these players are reluctant to part with actual isk, because the money they have has probably been hard earned. That's okay, because these players are usually the most desperate to get out of high sec, so if you offer free shipping to move their assets to goonspace, they'll often jump on it. Alternatively, tell them that you're sorry, but if they can't make a deposit, you can't let them in. Sometimes you'll find out a day later that they bought a plex and are all ready to give you their money. If they don't have enough money or any valuable assets, consider tossing them back. If they're stupid enough to get scammed, let some goon take them in a year when they have more money. Note that they often have a number of friends, buddies from the same corp who are also sick of the bullshit. Keep that in mind when you set general time limits for applying later on, so you have time to take their friends' stuff, too.


2) 50+ mil sp players looking for "elite" pvp

These guys will either block you as soon as you say goon, or they are ignorant of politics and are good targets. If you're lucky, they'll be a newbie player with enough money to purchase a tricked out combat guy, at which point you can mostly refer to the category above, as they are probably pretty ignorant. If not, they've probably spent some time in some worthless npc 0.0 alliance doing ****** pvp and paying for all of it with ratting/missioning. They like to think they're experienced, and they're usually pretty proud.

Talk **** about the ops you've been on, even if they're just rifter ops. Mention your experienced main character that flies a tengu/carrier/titan at the same time. If you need a character to pretend to be your alt, point them to my recently purchased old character, Berious, or someone similar. I'll confirm whatever stupid evemails I get while I'm online, just send me a little something after. They're going to want to know about GoonWaffe's pvp program, so play up its benefits, and they'll be eager to join.

They will have large amounts of isk and ships, so it's your call what you want to go for. If they're unwilling to give up money, pick one of their previous corps at random, and say that they're red to GoonWaffe. Have either you or a director ***** at them until they understand what a spy risk they are. Once that's done, offer to ship their stuff, and get them twice.


3) Industrial-focused characters

These are guys with a hulk, a freighter, several original blueprints, and a dream to have their own pos. What's a pos? A player-owned station. I'm not entirely sure what they do as a newbie myself, but apparently you can do research on them or build stuff or something. I don't think the pubbies understand what a pos does either, other than that it represents the endgame of industry.

This character's biggest concern is safety and logistics. You must convince them that it is safe to operate in 0.0 space, and you must convince them that it is not too inconvenient to set up shop here. Explain our Padded Helmets jump freighter service, and how reliable it is. Tell them you hardly see any enemies, because the population density of 0.0 is lower. Tell them that they'll get full shipping support and frequent mining ops. These guys are guaranteed to have not set foot in any system with a security level less than 0.5, so they don't know if you're bullshitting them about nullsec.
#3 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:52
4) The specialist

This person is lf wh, or lf incursion corp. That is, they want to join a wormhole corporation, or they want to run incursions. They may be relatively old and sure about what they want. They might be suspicious that a newbie like you is talking about specialized knowledge. They may have very specific requirements, and ask odd questions.

Always remember to ask for help if you don't know what they're talking about. You'll probably have to do some quick research on the fly to keep up with them. Ask in gs_scams, ask in mumble. Use the terms they're using, and learn what questions you need to ask them to be believable. Learn what wormholes are and what they do before talking to them. Likewise with incursions.

Because of the nature of wormhole corps sharing a pos with one corporate hangar, wormhole characters may be more amenable to a straight security deposit. Likewise with incursions, you don't want one person's fuckup to mess up a whole raid/incursion. Go for the shipping if you can, these guys will have high quality ships.


5) The ******

If you're really lucky, you'll come across someone with a pile of isk and ships, with no clue what they're doing. Maybe their friends started them in the game as their freighter ***** alt, and they are done doing that. Maybe you found a rich newbie who bought a super-carrier character with plex, and has billions of more isk that he or she doesn't know what to do with. Maybe you find a literal ****** who calls you "my lord" https://goonfleet.co...cammed-my-lord/

You've run the api, and you realize you're dealing with billions, maybe tens of billions. Relax. First thing to do is stay pleasant, mention you've got to go afk for a sec. Then call for help, right then. Talk to gs_scams, get your buddies on mumble to give you advice. You might not be able to take everything at once, especially if the person is a literal ****** who had to be walked through making a contract step by ******* step. Maybe it will take you and a revolving cast of directors and experts to pick away at the pile of isk and ships.

Take your time, and figure out what they want. Promise them the moon, they're too stupid to tell if you're lying. Be a mentor figure, and give them advice on what to do with their riches. Get all your buddies to chip in, and you'll have them feeling so special for having so many people wanting to help. Then ******* take them for all they're worthaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Drunk 'n' Disorderly
#4 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:52
Nothing new here. Anybody who has the common sense to do a little bit of research on an alliance before joining would know this. Inb4 Goon forum alt spamage.
The Sandbox = Play however the hell you want.
#5 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:53
Step 2: REELING THEM IN

Okay, so you have a good target, and they're online. What now? Right click on their name, and choose "invite to conversation". You can send them evemails, but nobody's likely to drop everything and give you their money based on a message. You must talk to them, schmooze them. Take a deep breath, go over your greeting and whatever info you have once, and hit that start convo button. I usually open with something like this:

Me: o7 (this is the salute sign, which only ******** pubbies use. But, when in Rome...)
Me: I understand you're looking for a [insert description of what they want here] corp?

maybe I'll add

Me: What, specifically, are you interested in doing?


Note that none of these questions have mentioned that I'm a goon, and I'm not coming on too strong. I'm giving the pubbie a chance to talk, which they will like, and it will give me the info I need to start selling GoonWaffe to them. It sounds professional, and it doesn't sound like I'm begging them to join.

Now they respond. Whatever they say they want, we have it. The funny thing is, this is often true.

Oh, you're a pvper/industrialist/newbie? I think GoonWaffe has a place for you. This is what we can offer to you:

Note that if they're going to quit, it will be when you mention goons. Industrialists and elite pvpers especially are likely to quit now.
#6 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:54
STEP 3: THE APP PROCESS
If you've done this part right, they should be pumped about joining, probably working applying back into the conversation. If you don't think they're eager enough, keep talking them up. Like the saying goes, no doesn't mean no, it means kiss my neck some more. Eventually, they'll move on or be interested enough to ask how to apply.

You're going to have them use a fake registration website. Use http://goonfleet.net It's run by a goon, Skeith Oumis. I suggest you send him a donation for successful scams you run. This site mimic goonfleet.com, and has an apply button, fake forum, fake wiki, and fake killboard. You can register for it by heading to http://goonfleet.net/admin_reg.php You'll need your own api key, and then choose your username and password. You can then access your admin control panel at http://goonfleet.net/admin Log in with your info. At the top of the screen will be 4 alphanumeric keys. Those are your sponsorship keys. You give the mark one of these keys, then direct him to apply with the key on the site. The mark puts in their api information, and from the admin section of the site you can see all of their money and assets, to tailor your scam to what they have. It is an amazing godsend. There's also a section where you can set the status of their app, from processing to awaiting deposit with a number, to awaiting director, to approved. The mark can see the status by putting in his application id, which he gets when he fills out an app, into the box in the top right of the main screen. So you can see the mark's assets, see that he has 800 mil, and decide you'll take him for a 400 mil deposit. You put that in the status, with "awaiting deposit, 400 mil" and tell the mark to check back. He sees it, asks what's up, and you move to step 4. This is how you get the mark to put in the info.

At this point, put on your helpful professional hat. This part is pretty straightforward and formulaic. This is the script I use.

-The app process is pretty simple.
-First you head to http://goonfleet.net
-You hit the tab that says apply.
-From there, click the link that says "here" and get your api information.
-Put in your api info, along with this sponsorship code: blah
-This gets sent to a director, who looks over your account to check the likelihood of you being a spy.
-Assuming that's okay, you'll get your intial acceptance in a few minutes. At this point, you're fully in the corp, we just have to get you in our auth system. You can check this yourself by going to that website and entering your application id blah into the box on the upper right part of the main page.
-Within one to two days, an automatic script will run, sending you an evemail with your login info for the forums/wiki. (if you need more time, change the number of days, or maybe our automatic system is down and you're really busy doing everything manually.)
-At that time, you can apply to the corp in game. Don't apply beforehand, because your name won't be on the list.

Note how this script does a number of things:
-it gets the mark to put in his api information so you can see their assets
-it plants the seed of a security deposit by mentioning the possibility the mark is a spy
-it reassures the mark that they're in the corp right now, and can immediately trust you
-it creates a time delay between the time they apply and the time they're accepted, so they don't get suspicious when nothing happens.
-it sets up an annoying period of time they'll have to wait before they get to move to goon space. This is the justification for you shipping their items now, rather than when they're in the corp already. You're trying to have all their stuff waiting for them by the time they get to goon space.

This script kind of developed over time, as I began to understand how I needed to manipulate my mark. I'm sure everyone has their own script on this, and that's okay. It should do the same key things above, however.

Now wait a few minutes. If you're taking them for a deposit, put in how much you want, and change the status to awaiting deposit. If you're just taking their assets, set the deposit to 0 and change the status to accepted.

Take a break for a sec. This is your chance.

Okay, so now you tell them the news. They're accepted, all they need to do is give you isk, or give you ships!

#7 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:56
STEP 4: THE CATCH
This is obviously the hardest part of the scam, and there are no hard and fast rules on how to get them to part with their isk and assets. The best I can do is give you a list of certain things you are forbidden to do by CCP, and a list of strategies that work for me.

YOU CANNOT:
-SCAM BLUES (EX BLUES OKAY)
-PRETEND TO BE AN ALLIANCE DIPLOMAT (DIRECTOR IS OKAY)
-SCAM REAL LIFE ITEMS
-GET THEM TO TRADE OR BUY A CHARACTER
-ASK THEM TO BUY A PLEX

That last one is a bit tricky. I've had marks mention that they might buy a plex to pay for the deposit. That's okay, you just cannot encourage them to do so.

Bad: Geez, I don't know how I'm going to pay for this... Why don't you buy a plex!
Good: Geez, I don't know how I'm going to pay for this, maybe I'll buy a plex... Well, that would be one way to pay for it. It's your call.

Beyond making them buy plex or mess with their characters, everything is fair game. Tell them whatever you think will get them to part with their isk/ships.

This is the guiding principle I operate under during all of my scamming: The vast majority of the time, the mark is still suspicious of you. You will not bring them in by building their trust (although that is important) but by appealing to their greed so much that they are willing to take the risk anyway. Thus it is essential that you present GoonWaffe as an opportunity too good to pass up, even if it might be a scam.

The two main ways you're going to make money are through the security deposit and the shipping scam.
#8 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:57
SECUIRITY DEPOSIT
Because you might be a spy or an awoxer (an awoxer is a person who joins a corp to do the max damage in the shortest amount of time), we do institute a standard security deposit of 300-700 mil isk, depending on your risk of being a spy. You can check your app on the site to see what the directors decided your deposit should be. This isn't under my control, I'm just the messenger :)

Assuming nothing bad happens, this is returned to you within 3 days/1 week/1 month. (As an added bonus, maybe we pay them a 10% interest rate on the deposit, just to say sorry?) Again, this is something used by almost every major alliance in nullsec, because even a new corp member can just be too damaging. They know all of our corp bookmarks, know the location of our corp pos, and can listen in on ops.

Sometimes I'll tell them that as their recruiter, I'm responsible if they turn out to be a spy. Make them feel bad for me, so they pay the deposit.

Another alternative to get isk is not a deposit, but an investment opportunity. All corp members are encouraged to invest in the GoonWaffe supercap production fund. Whatever you donate will be converted into a bond with a 5-10% payout per month, redeemable at any time by the owner, so your money isn't tied up. This really helps us out, and you get a guaranteed income to start out with. Everybody wins. Hell, many players have saved up 5-10 bil and invested enough to pay for their plex every month!

If they're an elite pvp or industrial guy, you could also try bringing in a director to discuss building a capital/supercap/freighter for them. It should take a couple weeks if we start now. We build the orders as they come in, and we have to accumulate the minerals for each order. To ensure we're not wasting our time, we require a certain portion of the price to be paid up front. Yes, I'd recommend you buy now instead of waiting to get into the corp because, like I said, it takes a while to build, and you don't want to wait longer than you have to. Or maybe you don't take a deposit. You'll sell it to them right now, for the corp discount. Pubbies will jump at this, since getting into these big ships is often their endgame goal.

I'm sure every scammer has their own methods for separating marks from isk. I encourage you to try your own methods. The key point is to make the story believeable and reasonable. Explain it step by step until it's obvious that the money you're asking for is legit. Appealing to greed always helps, whether it's an eagerness to join or an investment opportunity. The key problem that must be solved with any story is why the mark should give you money now, rather than waiting a few days until they're actually in the corp.

In any case, have the deposit made directly to you, the recruiter. Enjoy the isk!


The second way to make money off a mark is by appropriating their assets. The main way to do this is the free shipping scam.
#9 Posted: 2012.04.24 19:59

SHIPPING SCAM

Getting to goon space from empire is hard. Really hard. Impossible, even. There are gates that are camped 24/7, and rapecaged. Do you know what rapecaged means? No? Well, it's when you put 10 interdiction bubbles all around a gate, so that it's completely surrounded in bubbles for 20-40 km away. Within the bubble, you can't warp. So you jump into this gate, and you're 15 km out from the gate now. To get to safety, you either have to fly another 5-25 km out of the bubbles, or fly another 15 km back to the gate. Either way, you're 100% dead, guaranteed.

Yeah, I know, that sucks. How do we move stuff around then? Jump freighters. They jump between systems, avoiding the gatecamps. We use a neutral jf corp to ship stuff from jita to our hq, and back. They're extremely reliable, never lost a package. In fact, they're singlehandedly responsible for 80% of our logistics. I use these guys all the time to ship my loot to jita to sell. Shipping is free for newbies moving in, in fact.

What do you ship, well, this is what I'd recommend. Bring your main ratting ship and all your mods for it. Maybe a backup too, just in case you lose the first while you're getting the hang of 0.0. Don't forget these ships, we use them in our fleet fights, and if you don't want to fly them, sell them for 25%+ jita prices (read every ship they have on their item list). Bring your hulk, your orca, your freighter, your mothership, your unique titan. We want them all, and they're all useful, very useful.

What, your orca/freighter/titan is too big to ship to us? No worry, here's what we do. We'll bring up one of our titans to jump it straight to hq. Here's the problem though, we can't let you see the titan. You still could be a spy, and we can't risk billions of isk on that. Hand it off to one of our capable pilots, who will bring it down for you.

All you have to do on your end is get it to Jita 4-4, caldari navy assembly plant. That's where our jfs leave from.

Okay, go ahead and contract what you want to ship to this guy, he's a jump freighter alt. This is the contract you want to set:
type: courier (some pubbies think you can't break a courier contract)
set it to private, your alt's name

Pick the stuff you want to ship (hopefully everything)

For destination, type in vfk, hit search, should come up something like vfk-mittanigrad
Reward 0, collateral 0
2 weeks to accept, 14 days to complete
check to make sure it's set to private to my alt, we don't want some pubbie running off with all your stuff :)

Ok, you got the contract. Here's what you do.
Get your alt to where the contract was made, hopefully jita 4-4. Accept the contract. You should see a package in your items hangar that says something like VFK...
Right click, hit break it, confirm on the warning. The package pops open, and spills its goodies into your hangar. At this point, the stuff is yours, and there is nothing the other person can do.
But, make sure you don't manually fail the courier contract. Just let it expire. If you fail the contract, the pubbie gets a message, but just taking all the stuff doesn't send a warning. This gives you a little more time to scam him again before he catches on.
Pick through the stuff, and enjoy your spoils.

If you've read this far, congrats. This should be all the info you need to get started scamming. This guide has so far read like a script on what happens when everything goes okay. But that never happens, so the next half is what to say or do when things go wrong.


Please make sure all CEO and Alliance members see this. They do this all day every day and it goes right up to the top with goons.

I have heard and seen loggs where if you scam super caps from someone metanni himselff has to get money from it.


#10 Posted: 2012.04.24 20:00
You are literally the last person in Eve to know about this. Maybe next time do a forum search on a alliance you plan to join so if there are thousands of QQ threads about being scammed by them you'll know about it. If you get scammed you have nobody to blame but yourself.
Goonswarm Federation
#11 Posted: 2012.04.24 20:02
oh no he literally blew the roof off of our scam that nobody has ever talked about on these same forums for years oh wait http://eve-search.com/search/goon%20scam
npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
#12 Posted: 2012.04.24 20:05
Richard Desturned wrote:
oh no he literally blew the roof off of our scam that nobody has ever talked about on these same forums for years oh wait http://eve-search.com/search/goon%20scam


Yep. Guess it's just time that Goons stop recruitment scams since the rabbit is now officially out of the hat.

/sarcasm
The Sandbox = Play however the hell you want.
Minmatar Republic
#13 Posted: 2012.04.24 20:19
Seriously.....when are people going to be original for once?

That was so 3 to 4 years ago type of thing. Roll
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#14 Posted: 2012.04.24 20:29
Drake Draconis wrote:
Seriously.....when are people going to be original for once?

That was so 3 to 4 years ago type of thing. Roll


Why be original when the old methods still work.
#15 Posted: 2012.04.24 21:15
The flying wall of text strikes Tabernack in the head and the severed part flies off in an arc!
Tabernack has been struck down.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#16 Posted: 2012.04.24 21:39
I dunno what the OP is talking about, all my dealings with goons have been positive. They're supposed to have my stuff out to this great null pocket next week. I'm looking forward to the great new adventure in the depths of 0.0, where the population is less dense and there are frequent mining ops.
I'm Denzel Washington, and I play chess.
Clockwork Pineapple
#17 Posted: 2012.04.24 21:41
Thanks for telling us stuff we already knew you have provided a great service here Big smile
#18 Posted: 2012.04.24 22:24
wait, you seriously didn't know about this?

LOL
Caldari State
#19 Posted: 2012.04.24 22:36  |  Edited by: Fractals 4Lyfe
Hi, if you're going to post my guide, please properly credit me as the author. Thanks Big smile

Edit: You forgot my favorite part:

Quote:

But I ******* love it, because I'm a loser nerd who gets to be an alpha male with the power of my brain and show all those dumb jocks from high school that I'm the real winner no matter how many girls they ****** and how alone I was and
Minmatar Republic
#20 Posted: 2012.04.24 22:57
Iva Posavec wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Seriously.....when are people going to be original for once?

That was so 3 to 4 years ago type of thing. Roll


Why be original when the old methods still work.



Because its boring and just flat depressing....all it tells me is the scam artists are couple IQ points above the victims.

I need a scam thats not the same ol #### different victim crap.
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