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CSM Chairman Hotline - AMA (Ask Me Anything) non-NDA about EVE, the CSM & CCP

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Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-09-02 07:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
I really don't see what you have done this time around at CSM that CCP wasn't doing anyhow.

It seems that the debacle of CSM 6 got CCP back on the interation path anyhow, so I guess your running for it and promising the world was a great plan, right up until they iterated on things that didn't meet with what you promised.

This isn't about WHAT I PERSONALLY want, it's about WHAT YOU PERSONALLY said you would make happen.

Personally, I don't see any of it. I see new exhumers, and a bunch of iterations that CSM 6 had already pushed CCP down the path of.

Without doing what you say you're going to do, you're basically the mouthpiece of a development team already working in the correct general direction.

I see little or no push for anything spoken about during the campaign week, with perhaps the exception of the treaty system.

I understand it's hard to give a coherent reply on this - what with your mouth full and all.

Here's a cut and paste from your blog from the period:
Seleene wrote:

Mining

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Mining in its current form is a soul draining, time vampire of an activity. I'd like to see mining become more interactive and require some form of actual DOING SOMETHING.

I'd like to see bigger rocks.
I'd like to see rocks with variable mineral content.
I'd like to see rocks with multiple layers / densities. (zomg, what if there is Kernite, Omber and morphite in the center?!")
I'd like to see finite resources of things like moon goo have a % chance to be in a rock.
I'd like to see skills affect the amounts / types of minerals you could extract from a rock.
I'd like to see planetary ring mining.
I'd like to see comet mining.
I'd like to mine / hollow out a giant asteroid and make a home there to live out of.
I'd like to see a variance in the 'purity' of minerals that are mined where some veldspar is worth more.
I'd like to see that same Veldspar refined into Tritanium that gives a ship 10% more hit points due to it's pure qualities...
... IF you had the proper skills to use the proper blueprint that allowed you to take advantage of the improved alloys.

That kind of stuff. That's what I'd like to see happen with mining.


Perhaps it's my madness, but I don't see any of this in the minutes.

You tell me, how much of this agenda did you get CCP to do for the next expansion ?

.

#42 - 2012-09-02 10:06:04 UTC
You made it sound like the spodumain rocks were bigger. That is an accomplishment. First one on the list was done.

A lot of those ideas remind me of drone poo really. Makes me wish we still had it. I miss my small amounts of morphite gained in hi sec.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-09-02 10:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
What is an accomplishment ?

Have you SEEN the spodumain rocks ?

They are gigantic - well beyond ANY other rock in the game.
A single miner can sit on one for the 3 days and not mine it out - easily.
While every other rock in the grav site is long dead.

.

#44 - 2012-09-02 11:32:09 UTC
http://gaff.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/thats-a-big-spodumain/

It is kind of funny to look at. Reading the article makes it sound, like everyone is too greedy down there for better ores. Be a hard problem to fix.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

#45 - 2012-09-02 11:34:27 UTC
rodyas wrote:
http://gaff.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/thats-a-big-spodumain/

It is kind of funny to look at. Reading the article makes it sound, like everyone is too greedy down there for better ores. Be a hard problem to fix.

Looks more like something out of the why we cloak thread. You could hide a titan behind thatLol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-09-02 11:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
rodyas wrote:
http://gaff.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/thats-a-big-spodumain/

It is kind of funny to look at. Reading the article makes it sound, like everyone is too greedy down there for better ores. Be a hard problem to fix.


Dude, please stop saying this and that about **** u know nothing about.

It's NOT a hard problem to fix, if you'd seen it instead of just reading about it, you'd understand.

You are the reason I now understand peoples' fear of clowns.

It might be funny to look at, but it's not funny to mine day after day.

.

#47 - 2012-09-02 11:59:54 UTC
Yeah with the low price for spodumain, I see your point it would be an easy and probably a good fix. I suppose not enough people mine in low sec so not much attention gets brought to it. (Plus probably evil to your eyes, the bang for buck thing I read ccp dev teams work with, might make it harder to get fixed, but would make more sense.)

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

#48 - 2012-09-02 12:03:47 UTC
I would ask you about this Rev,

Quote:
Low sec mining suffers from middle child syndrome.

In order to mine efficently in low sec, one needs a larger operation. Orca + Several barges + full security team. Any fewer miners and the operation isn't worth the security team's time. Any fewer security people and the operation is vulnerable.

If you can assemble such a team, you're better off mining in null or in a WH for the ABCs. If you can't or are solo, you'll make more in high sec simply because you lose a lot less time/isk to piracy (or guarding against it) compared to low sec.


That said, I think we'll naturally see some miners migrate to low sec. With the removal of meta 0 loot drops and drone poo, the availability of rare minerals like Zyd and Mega in high sec will sharply decrease as those minerals cannot be gained from High Sec mining alone.

That doesn't solve the logistics headache but the person who can balance the risk/reward of low sec can stand to make a bundle.


But you already answered with this

Quote:
Dude, please join me on the "Add ABC ores to lowsec" warpath.

My thinking goes like this...

CCP are adding "ring mining" to 0.0 to enable the current moon goo materials to be mined in barges (of some kind *shrug*).

This indeed paves the way for ABC ores in my opinion to be added to low-sec.

This will give industry corps a clear path from high-sec, to low-sec, to 0.0. They would also be valued allies in all areas of space instead of the 2nd class citizens they are at the moment.

Grav sites - please get rid of the huge spodumain rocks. When a combat ship does a site he can finish it in 15 minutes. When 4-5 of us go into a grav site, we often can't finish it in the 3 days it exists and most of that time is completely wasted on the spodumain. At least low-end ores would be somewhat useful for building.

POS's need to be looked at in order to fix the current system of pos refining also - either get rid of the timer or lower the % of loss. I understand the % of loss better than the timer. Considering the CPU and PG it takes to put one in a POS it should be instant or have no loss - both systems limit the number of minerals maximum which might be put through an intensive refinery.

There are many other changes which could be looked at in the areas of invention, production, station slots, empire POS's etc also.

We need *1* industrial expansion to implement a lot of this and just "get it done".



So I mostly ask Seleene, if he could give us a quick overview if one is possible of ring mining. I heard some crazy stuff about it and now too confused about it.

Or if that fails, do you think Seleene, if the null sec miners would be too busy ring mining, they would no longer have time to mine ABC ores? Or do you think null residents or WH residents could mine enough rings as well as ABC ores?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

#49 - 2012-09-02 12:20:35 UTC
I actually feel dumb really to tell ya the truth, With ore prices the way they are it doesn't really matter. I really need to change that perspective of lower and null roids more valuable. Seems any ideas with mining is ********. Just mine in hi-sec. Trade for null sec minerals.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-09-02 12:25:26 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Yeah with the low price for spodumain, I see your point it would be an easy and probably a good fix. I suppose not enough people mine in low sec so not much attention gets brought to it. (Plus probably evil to your eyes, the bang for buck thing I read ccp dev teams work with, might make it harder to get fixed, but would make more sense.)


Finally, he understands.

I'm going to church next Sunday.

.

Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-09-02 12:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
rodyas wrote:
I actually feel dumb really to tell ya the truth, With ore prices the way they are it doesn't really matter. I really need to change that perspective of lower and null roids more valuable. Seems any ideas with mining is ********. Just mine in hi-sec. Trade for null sec minerals.


Yeah this is what's basically been happening a lot... but the prices have been shaken up with the drone regions no longer giving minerals... So the empire ores are great right now again, I'm not entirely sure why, perhaps because the nullsec ores were already stockpiled?... I'm hoping the prices will shift back to "normal", but that still doesn't fix the soul crushing mining in 0.0 right now for renters and small corps.

These guys (Seleene, Two Step, Hans, etc) promised to fix it and haven't <- this is now the real issue in my eyes.

Instead the CSM minutes are basically just "news about what CCP are going to release next" and that's not the role of CSM as far as I know.

.

Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-09-02 12:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
rodyas wrote:
Or if that fails, do you think Seleene, if the null sec miners would be too busy ring mining, they would no longer have time to mine ABC ores? Or do you think null residents or WH residents could mine enough rings as well as ABC ores?


This also is at the heart of why I think ABC's should be available in lowsec.

If you have ring mining in 0.0/grav sites in 0.0/whatever then surely that's a good reason to allow ABC ores to be included in lowsec with more proliferation - after all, much of the 0.0 crowd will just mine the t2 stuff in order to make those ships - I'm not saying they won't ALSO mine ABC - but if they had both, then surely lowsec could have ABC available to it.

This allows a progression -
Empire = t1 low end ores, no ABC.
Lowsec = t1 ores including ABC.
0.0 = t1 and t2 ores of all kinds.

Then mining corps can slowly progress through that foodchain.

Right now a mining corp that wishes to move from empire to lowsec ends up having those other issues I've arleady brought up about a million times - 75% refineries, spodzilla spodumain rocks.

There's no progression for this profession baby.

This is why elise is still in ******* empire (lol).

.

#53 - 2012-09-02 12:38:36 UTC
Yeah hopefully they shift, or something new gets introduced, otherwise its worthless trying to improve mining there.

One of my theories is that there is so much T1 ship use, why hi-sec roids are worth so much. Wish I had better numbers, and too lazy to look at most ships used stats for pvp. But also all capitals are T1 and well as supers. Just so much focus on minerals from hi sec to meet that demand.

Suppose CCP could change the hi-sec mineral need on blueprints to help bring prices in line. Or just add more trit and stuff to roids in hi sec. But who knows.

How much time would ya give them Rev, for them to figure out the price on roids? Also CCP propably has better stats on hi sec mineral usage and why the prices are the way they are.

Can ya ask them for us Seleene about the prices for roids, and CCP opinion of them or how they are that way?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

#54 - 2012-09-02 12:41:04 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:



Right now a mining corp that wishes to move from empire to lowsec ends up having those other issues I've arleady brought up about a million times - 75% refineries, spodzilla spodumain rocks.


I make joke!! sorry about clown return.

Perhaps the -75% refineries are set that way to deal with the huge spodumians. Stations just can't carry that much, and remove 25% so it can all fit inside.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Mercenary Coalition
#55 - 2012-09-02 14:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
Rev, saying I want something is one thing. Saying that I will push for it is fine. But you seem to be very confused about what a CSM member can MAKE happen. I said that I would push for it and I have. So have other CSM members. Cripes, even Elise wants some of this stuff for his own reasons. You are upset that something you and I both want won't be in the winter expansion. Fine. But that doesn't mean it's not being discussed or pushed for, and stop ignoring the potential for what is coming in the POS re-vamp along with ring-mining (which I'll talk about in a minute). Lastly, stop rambling on because you think the CSM has superpowers beyond being an advocacy group and community liaisons. When I can talk more about the increased "powers" we have a stakeholders I will, but you ARE confused about the role of the CSM, and I'm trying to explain that to you (along with how our communications work) but you seem too determined to be mad to listen. Believe what you will, it won't change my stance or desires (which are very similar to your own). v0v

rodyas wrote:
So I mostly ask Seleene, if he could give us a quick overview if one is possible of ring mining. I heard some crazy stuff about it and now too confused about it.


1.) Even if I knew every detail about "ring mining" there is no way I could possibly talk about it at this stage of development.

2.) We've honestly not been told much. In terms of how it will actually work, no clue. We will have the options mine in rings!

Now, with that out of the way, there are a lot of ideas that have been discussed which, based on what we HAVE talked about with CCP that I would expect to see. Things like rocks with variable ore content, 'striking it rich' by finding moon goo, etc... This goes back to what I was saying earlier which is that when we've talked about this with CCP, the impression the CSM has is that "ring mining" is likely going to be more of a "mining" feature which will address many of the issues that frustrate players.

rodyas wrote:
Or if that fails, do you think Seleene, if the null sec miners would be too busy ring mining, they would no longer have time to mine ABC ores? Or do you think null residents or WH residents could mine enough rings as well as ABC ores?


Until we know what the mechanics of the 'new' system will be, or what the benefits of the new POS system will be, there is really no way to answer that.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

#56 - 2012-09-02 20:52:32 UTC
The main pushes I would like to see are what I just noted down for Issler in another thread

1) calculate the value of the incoming contract from a player based on Jita prices -5 or 10%
2) Have it automatically limited to certain stations
3) have it limited to an amount I choose, for example 50 million
4) have it so a character may only submit this contract the number per day or week as I specify, for example 1 per day.
5) Be able to specify the minerals or ores I would like to be able to be purchased via this
6) the same thing for salvage

Well that and have the bloody stupid war dec system fixed, it is a mess and the old one worked better than this new rubbish.
As well as a general re balancing of corporate and alliance incomes to be bottom up rather than top down (I believe this was mentioned in the minutes anyway)
CSM Voting changes to make it less suseptable to abuse or nutters like me.
The POS to be done right (heres hoping)
The hope that ring mining will be available in Null, lo-sec and Wormhole space rather than another just for Null issue.
The last 5 are more hopes than anything else, as CCP has shown before it can and does ignore the CSM if it thinks it is right. Lets hope that doesn't happen againSmile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-09-03 03:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Seleene wrote:
Rev, saying I want something is one thing. Saying that I will push for it is fine. But you seem to be very confused about what a CSM member can MAKE happen. I said that I would push for it and I have. So have other CSM members. Cripes, even Elise wants some of this stuff for his own reasons. You are upset that something you and I both want won't be in the winter expansion. Fine. But that doesn't mean it's not being discussed or pushed for, and stop ignoring the potential for what is coming in the POS re-vamp along with ring-mining (which I'll talk about in a minute). Lastly, stop rambling on because you think the CSM has superpowers beyond being an advocacy group and community liaisons. When I can talk more about the increased "powers" we have a stakeholders I will, but you ARE confused about the role of the CSM, and I'm trying to explain that to you (along with how our communications work) but you seem too determined to be mad to listen. Believe what you will, it won't change my stance or desires (which are very similar to your own). v0v


Which leaves the CSM as a mouthpiece for the marketing department.

"Hell I remember CSM 3 and 4 and all you'd hear back from that is bickering and infighting, now we're the mouthpiece of the marketing department, that's progress."

I don't see the point in candidates standing to make ANY particular changes in that case - I see little use for the CSM - a point of view of many people out there already.

If you cannot push CCP in a direction because that direction requires immediate attention despite what their plans for the next 2 years - and let's face it - that's what you're telling us about - 2 years in the future for some of this stuff, then I don't see the point of the CSM at all.

Instead we got barge and exhumer "fixes" which only pandered to the peanut gallery and people who think printing more money will fix their economies.

Edit: Just check it out http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/csm-7-spring-summit-review-part-i.html 6-7 pics of the marketing guy, 1 or none each other ccp employee, marketing was a big facet of the talks I'm guessing ? Or at least being handled by him.

How can you possibly stand there and tell us what a great success this CSM has been when you haven't ticked ONE THING off the list on your BLOG that you said you'd do for mining - one the main platforms you ran on?

(Don't get me wrong, Hans and Two Step also said they'd help change this stuff - this is why it's absurd that it hasn't been fixed, when so many CSMs said they would make it start to happen).

You can sit and try and justify this all you like, but I don't see that happening. Going by the CSM minutes, and your own admissions since, you didn't even try.

.

The Initiative.
#58 - 2012-09-03 12:33:16 UTC
You know, there is some middle ground between "omnipotent authority" and "utter impotence". And there's also the fact that even if your favourite CSM rep comes up with a suggestion that makes CCP go all ~Meg Ryan In The Deli~, the fact of limited resources for development for an incredibly complex, old, inconsistently documented MMO mean that it can easily take months or even a year for this orgasmically awesome idea to arrive into a devblog.

And then when it does arrive, there will be a 70-page threadnaught of tears from those who are adapted to the old, broken system bawwing about how EVE is being "dumbed down" or they're being "forced into nullsec" or whatever.

Christ, look at the roasting I got for suggesting that CCP could make mining into an entertaining RTS minigame that would reward increased player involvement with increased yields. RARRR HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT I DESERVE LESS ISK FOR MINDLESSLY SHOOTING A ROCK THAN SOMEONE WHO IS CONSTANTLY SOLVING A REAL TIME 3-D PUZZLE GRARRR YOU HORRIBLE GANKBEAR RARR RARR BURN HIMMMMMMMM!!!!!!


Poor Malcy just wanted to make mining a bit more fun Shocked


Now widen that perspective: there is literally no possible change that you can suggest that will not arouse furious opposition from some quarter, because whatever that change is, some players will lose out. Or even just not benefit by as much as others (witness the incredible bawwing whenever CCP give out free gifts). So every possible proposal has to be minutely and carefully considered, and generally good ideas will get rejected because they disadvantage a substantial minority.

Takes time...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

#59 - 2012-09-03 12:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
This fact Just in: EvE-O forums are in fact powered by whine.

I have seen more whining from people this year in GD about everything imaginable than I saw during the Incarna disaster. The players are getting better at complaining about everything.

Edit: I would love to see some of the DEV memos about the players, we must **** them off a lot, they get a good idea so half the players whine. The change their decision so the other half whine.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Mercenary Coalition
#60 - 2012-09-03 12:54:16 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
If you cannot push CCP in a direction because that direction requires immediate attention despite what their plans for the next 2 years - and let's face it - that's what you're telling us about - 2 years in the future for some of this stuff, then I don't see the point of the CSM at all.


You've pretty much ignored everything I've said, and seem to be ignoring that I'm saying anything at all, and just want to be mad. Welp. I refer you to Malcanis' post. You want stuff that you want to happen when you want it. v0v

One more thing though to just illustrate how you aren't even trying:

Revolution Rising wrote:
Edit: Just check it out http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/csm-7-spring-summit-review-part-i.html 6-7 pics of the marketing guy, 1 or none each other ccp employee, marketing was a big facet of the talks I'm guessing ? Or at least being handled by him..


Who is the 'marketing guy'? We never met with anyone directly from Marketing. I'm likely going to request a session with them at the next summit tho because we'd like to tell them a few things. In that blog there are pictures of CCP Unifex, CCP Xhagen, CCP Greyscale and CCP Punkturis. Seeing as how there are more of this gentleman I'll assume you mean him? Yeah, that's Unifex. Jon Lander. EVE's Senior Producer.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

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