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[New Ship Type Proposal] - Command Platform / "Racial Orca"

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I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#1 Posted: 2012.10.02 16:08  |  Edited by: Jin alPatar
I really like the Orca as a non-mining nomad platform. It's well set up to support a small fleet and the lack of offensive capabilities do a good job of keeping it balanced.

But due to the large(ish) number of people that use the Orca in this fashion I think it makes sense--in game--for someone to develop a ship class similar to the Orca but for each race.

We already have quite a few people asking for a hi-sec carrier and this is a similar idea. The main difference is the very limited offensive capabilities of my proposed class of ship. (I'm not asking for an iWIN button, but something that makes sense in game)


First, what do I like about the Orca as a non-mining 'platform'?

  1. Corp Hangar
  2. Ship Maintenance Bay
  3. Large(ish) cargo capacity


Second, what would I like changed?

  1. Bonuses to non-mining warfare link modules
  2. A bit larger ship bay, but not unbalanced
  3. Merge the ore bay with the corp hangar
  4. Probing bonus (I would personally like this but recognize it's a bit outside what a generic ship should have)


I envision 2 models of this ship.

Quote:

The First:
Command Platform
Highs: 5
Meds: 4
Lows: 4

Turrets: 0
Launchers: 0

Tank: 50% greater than orca with focus on racial type (shield vs armor) instead of structure.

Cargo Capacity: 10,000
Corp Hangar: 100,000
Ship Bay: 610,000
Drone Bay: 125m3
Bandwidth: 50 Mbit/sec

Role Bonus:
250% bonus to tractor beam range
100% bonus to tractor beam velocity
99% reduction in CPU need for Gang Link modules
Can use 3 gang link modules simultaneously.

Command Platform Bonus:
3% bonus to effectiveness of Racial gang links per level
5% bonus to probe strength per level


A lot of people don't like Off-Grid boosters and this could do that, but it'd be impossible to make un-probable. (damn easy to probe down, in fact)

It has a bit bigger ship bay to nicely support a fleet of 5 cruiser size vessels (or a BS, Cruiser & frigate). It's easy to see that this is pretty well 100% a support ship

Now tell me why it's a bad idea, or what should change to make it a good idea.


Quote:

The Second:
Black Ops Command Platform
Highs: 4
Meds: 5
Lows: 4

Turrets: 0
Launchers: 0

Tank: 66% of the orca.

Cargo Capacity: 5,000
Corp Hangar: 45,000
Ship Bay: 350,000
Drone Bay: 125m3
Bandwidth: 50 Mbit/sec

Role Bonus:
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Able to use a single Warfare Link Module while cloaked. Cloaked boosts only affect listed ships.*
Can fit covert cynosural field generators
Only listed ships* can use Ship Maintenance Bay
Corp Hangar can not hold unlisted* packaged ships

*Ship List: Covert Ops Frigates, Stealth Bombers, Force Recon Ships, Block Ops Battleships, Blockade Runners, Strategic Cruisers with the Covert Reconfiguration subsystem installed

Command Platform Bonus:
5% bonus to agility and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level
10% bonus to probe strength per level


This ship can still boost but past 1 warfare link you need command processors. It's designed as a support vessel for Black Ops vessels and like the above ship has extremely limited offensive capabilities.

Again, please tell me why these are bad ideas and what could change to make them more realistic.


Edit 1: Made corp hangar smaller on Black Ops version to prevent non-covert ops ships from shipping along. Added ship type restriction to Ship Maintenance Bay.

Edit 2: Increased corp hangar on Black Ops version. Added limitation of no non-covert ops packaged ships in corp hangar. Removed Jump Portal Generator. Added new special ability to apply one warfare link boost while cloaked to cloaked ships.

Edit 3: Fleshed out list of ships that can use or be affected by the Black Ops Command Platform

Edit 4: Increased tank on standard Command Platform to be greater than an Orca and to have a focus on the racial non-hull type.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#2 Posted: 2012.10.02 16:30
Dang, just saw Furry Commander's post on the Escort Carrier's thread.

Pretty similar ideas here/there.
#3 Posted: 2012.10.02 17:38
Sooooo, you want a carrier?
Gallente Federation
#4 Posted: 2012.10.02 18:38  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
oh people already said that.... this is the role of a carrier... if you check it out it have command role bonuses...
Please read these!
> New POS system
> New SOV system
#5 Posted: 2012.10.02 18:56
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
Sooooo, you want a carrier?

Pointing out the obvious just to streamline any discussion:

The defining characteristics of the Orca must include:

The absence of a jump drive
The ability to enter high security space

Unless bridged by other capable vessels, this ship must use gates the same way a freighter does.

I don't see a problem putting out more pinatas. So long as the combat support is replacing nothing more than the original Orca as best for the job, it makes sense.

I just don't want to open the door for the new exploit that makes everyone go nuts.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#6 Posted: 2012.10.02 19:02  |  Edited by: Jin alPatar
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
Sooooo, you want a carrier?

The defining characteristics of the Orca must include:

The absence of a jump drive
The ability to enter high security space



I agree. The first proposal I listed has no jump drive. It's mostly a bit bigger and tougher than the orca (like an old style tier II orca).


The second option can use a covert jump portal generator just like a black ops BS. I've always liked the description of Marauders being designed to work behind enemy lines. No one ever uses them for that but it did give me inspiration for this. It's a fair bit weaker than the orca and holds less. Less buffing but it'll let you drop supplies behind enemy lines along with a covert op fleet.

And let's be realistic, this thing is going to be simple to scan down. So if someone has this in a system and it's cloaked, they don't gain much more than a cloaky hauler that can move with them. If they use it for the boosting, it'll be pretty vulnerable.


I want a carrier in the sense that I want a support vessel that can carry ships like an orca. I DO NOT want lots of drones, triage, super logistics, FIGHTERS, etc.
#7 Posted: 2012.10.02 19:07
Jin alPatar wrote:
The Second:
Black Ops Command Platform
Highs: 4
Meds: 5
Lows: 4

Turrets: 0
Launchers: 0

Tank: 66% of the orca.

Cargo Capacity: 10,000
Corp Hangar: 45,000
Ship Bay: 350,000
Drone Bay: 125m3
Bandwidth: 50 Mbit/sec

Role Bonus:
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators

Command Platform Bonus:
5% bonus to agility and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level
5% bonus to probe strength per level


This ship can still boost but past 1 warfare link you need command processors. It's designed as a support vessel for Black Ops vessels and like the above ship has extremely limited offensive capabilities.

Again, please tell me why these are bad ideas and what could change to make them more realistic.

I recommend the following:
Drop the ability to mount covert Cyno field generator and covert jump portal generator.
This ship should not replace the need for a black ops, the fact that it can carry fuel for one more than covers it being useful in the operations involving that.

Limit the ship bay to only being able to store the type of ships the black ops can bridge for.
Failing this, you create a work-a-round that would allow a blops to bridge over normal combat vessels inside it. The pilots just travel in basic covops frigs and swap out at the destination.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#8 Posted: 2012.10.02 19:15  |  Edited by: Jin alPatar
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I recommend the following:
Drop the ability to mount covert Cyno field generator and covert jump portal generator.
This ship should not replace the need for a black ops, the fact that it can carry fuel for one more than covers it being useful in the operations involving that.

Limit the ship bay to only being able to store the type of ships the black ops can bridge for.
Failing this, you create a work-a-round that would allow a blops to bridge over normal combat vessels inside it. The pilots just travel in basic covops frigs and swap out at the destination.



Post got borked ...

You're right on only holding covert ops ships. I added that limitation.

Also dropped corp hangar to 5k and cargohold to 1.5k. Otherwise you can keep packaged non-covert-ops ships. (you'll still be able to hold 2, but I don't see a way to keep a reasonable corp hangar and prevent non-covert-ops ships from coming along).


I still think it makes sense to keep the covert jump portal generator on a ship this size. Anyone else have an opinion on keeping or dropping the covert jump portal generator on this model?


Additionally, with these limitations should there be any other bonus added? Tech II resists? Drone damage bonuses? Probe flight time bonus? Fuel bay for Jump drive?

Or is the giant cargo that can covertly drop that big of a bonus that any others would be overpowered?
#9 Posted: 2012.10.02 19:59
Jin alPatar wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I recommend the following:
Drop the ability to mount covert Cyno field generator and covert jump portal generator.
This ship should not replace the need for a black ops, the fact that it can carry fuel for one more than covers it being useful in the operations involving that.

Limit the ship bay to only being able to store the type of ships the black ops can bridge for.
Failing this, you create a work-a-round that would allow a blops to bridge over normal combat vessels inside it. The pilots just travel in basic covops frigs and swap out at the destination.



Post got borked ...

You're right on only holding covert ops ships. I added that limitation.

Also dropped corp hangar to 5k and cargohold to 1.5k. Otherwise you can keep packaged non-covert-ops ships. (you'll still be able to hold 2, but I don't see a way to keep a reasonable corp hangar and prevent non-covert-ops ships from coming along).


I still think it makes sense to keep the covert jump portal generator on a ship this size. Anyone else have an opinion on keeping or dropping the covert jump portal generator on this model?


Additionally, with these limitations should there be any other bonus added? Tech II resists? Drone damage bonuses? Probe flight time bonus? Fuel bay for Jump drive?

Or is the giant cargo that can covertly drop that big of a bonus that any others would be overpowered?

I suggest this:
Leave the cargo bay intact. Just expect it to be carrying fuel for the BLOPs making bridges to move it around.

Forget the Jump Portal Generator. Unless you are leaving this ship behind, you already need a BLOPs to bridge it to the target system.
If it is not going to the target system, why bother? A regular Orca could do everything else.

I would give it the ability to give a specific cloaked boost, limited to ship types that the BLOPs could bridge over. Fleeted ships not fitting this description would not get bonuses while 'Cloaked Boosting'.
(If the ship decloaks and exposes itself to risk of being scanned down, that is different. All fleeted ships should get a bonus that way)
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#10 Posted: 2012.10.02 20:21  |  Edited by: Jin alPatar
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I suggest this:
Leave the cargo bay intact. Just expect it to be carrying fuel for the BLOPs making bridges to move it around.

Forget the Jump Portal Generator. Unless you are leaving this ship behind, you already need a BLOPs to bridge it to the target system.
If it is not going to the target system, why bother? A regular Orca could do everything else.

I would give it the ability to give a specific cloaked boost, limited to ship types that the BLOPs could bridge over. Fleeted ships not fitting this description would not get bonuses while 'Cloaked Boosting'.
(If the ship decloaks and exposes itself to risk of being scanned down, that is different. All fleeted ships should get a bonus that way)


One of the reasons to keep the JPG is to free up a slot on the BLOPs. I'm also thinking about mechanics that already exist in the game engine when planning this. If we want a hangar that can only hold fuel then we just give it a fuel bay. I'd like the bay to hold loot / ammo / modules to change fits. Anything bigger and we need a new engine mechanic to limit what goes in a cargo hold by type of ship (and I don't think this mechanic exists).


Ok, changing my mind as I type.

Let's assume we can have everything we ask for. In this case we keep the corp hangar decently sized but limit and packaged ships to those that are listed (covert ops frigates, recon ships, & black ops ships).


Regarding specific cloaked boosts: I think this becomes too overpowered. I love the idea of a cloaked command platform (makes me think of the 'ship' in The Avengers). But off-grid boosters that can't be scanned/killed are a problem.

Maybe if we limit it to: "Able to use a single Warfare Link Module while cloaked. Module effects only affect Covet Ops ships".

Initially this seems to still be overpowered but we don't have a ship bonus to warfare link modules. So it's only the implants & skill bonuses that would come into play. Then the ship can uncloak to use more than 1 and apply them to the rest of a fleet.

Does this seem like a good balance/compromise?


Edit: Ok, added limitation of no non-covert ops packaged ships in corp hangar. Increase probe strength bonus to 10%. Added cloak specific boost affect. Removed jump portal generator. (you're right, it makes sense).

I did keep the cyno generator as I think a black ops fleet should be able to jump to their command platform.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#11 Posted: 2012.10.02 20:39
If it can boost while cloaked, what do you think about something like:

"Suffers a 1000% penalty to activation cost of Warfare Link modules while cloaked"

That brings the activation cost from 25 every 10 seconds to 250 every 10 seconds (a large neut is 500 every 20 seconds).. The numbers may not be exact but unless it's fit for cap stability, running one of these while cloaked should not be cap stable. This makes it harder for someone to AFK one of these ships as they need to manage cap while trying to boost the fleet.
#12 Posted: 2012.10.02 21:40
(Cloaky BLOPs Version)

Two suggestions:
Basing off of the BLOPs limits, let the Ship Hangar also include cloaky T3's able to fit the CovOps cloak.
Also suggest letting covops transports like the crane and prorator come along. (forgot other two names)
(Properly fitted, they can both field 10k m3 of storage, in the crane's case not a cheap fit using T2 rigs)

A cloaked single boost ability had been suggested in the past for the BLOPs itself, which is where I draw the inspiration for suggesting it on this boat. A ship intended to boost already is an equally good fit in my opinion.

The boosting ability itself is one of the few reasons this ship has to stay online during an op, outside of prep times themselves where it's hangar is needed.
(Otherwise it sits cloaked while the player twiddles their thumbs / logs off till it is needed again)
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#13 Posted: 2012.10.02 21:52
Nikk Narrel wrote:
(Cloaky BLOPs Version)

Two suggestions:
Basing off of the BLOPs limits, let the Ship Hangar also include cloaky T3's able to fit the CovOps cloak.
Also suggest letting covops transports like the crane and prorator come along. (forgot other two names)
(Properly fitted, they can both field 10k m3 of storage, in the crane's case not a cheap fit using T2 rigs)

A cloaked single boost ability had been suggested in the past for the BLOPs itself, which is where I draw the inspiration for suggesting it on this boat. A ship intended to boost already is an equally good fit in my opinion.

The boosting ability itself is one of the few reasons this ship has to stay online during an op, outside of prep times themselves where it's hangar is needed.
(Otherwise it sits cloaked while the player twiddles their thumbs / logs off till it is needed again)



Added a full list of ships that can use covert jump portals.

Ship List: Covert Ops Frigates, Stealth Bombers, Force Recon Ships, Block Ops Bombers, Blockade Runners, Strategic Cruisers with the Covert Reconfiguration subsystem installed



Any thoughts on the non-Black Ops version?
#14 Posted: 2012.10.03 16:14
Jin alPatar wrote:
Any thoughts on the non-Black Ops version?

The Orca was mostly intended to avoid combat, so it's tank is a joke.

I suggest this:

Increase shield / armor / CPU / Powergrid (and recharge time) to take the better when compared to the Tier one BC of that same race. Possibly the tier one BS makes more sense, considering it will be a priority target.
For a low end cap ship, this is still weak sauce, but noone can claim it is overpowered. The devs might even agree it needs to be boosted even higher.
Yes, Structure is better on the Orca, but a combat or even combat support cap ship like this should be more at risk and less likely to be an easy kill.
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#15 Posted: 2012.10.03 16:57
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Jin alPatar wrote:
Any thoughts on the non-Black Ops version?

The Orca was mostly intended to avoid combat, so it's tank is a joke.

I suggest this:

Increase shield / armor / CPU / Powergrid (and recharge time) to take the better when compared to the Tier one BC of that same race. Possibly the tier one BS makes more sense, considering it will be a priority target.
For a low end cap ship, this is still weak sauce, but noone can claim it is overpowered. The devs might even agree it needs to be boosted even higher.
Yes, Structure is better on the Orca, but a combat or even combat support cap ship like this should be more at risk and less likely to be an easy kill.



Ok, let's look at some numbers to see where this should be for EHP.

Quote:

Rough Estimates for EHP on Buffer Tanked Setups
Battlecruiser: 50k EHP
Fleet Command Ship: 75k EHP
Battleship: 100k EHP
Orca: 150k - 200k EHP
Carrier: 1mil - 2mil EHP


these numbers use roughly similar tanks on each (resist focused w/ All lvl Vs). Just a guideline.

Going BC to Command Ship nets you a pretty big increase in EHP. If we follow the BC -> CS route then the Command Platform should be in the 225 - 300 EHP range. This isn't unreasonable.

Sure, it's a few times stronger than a battleship and doesn't really need to make the choice between tank and gank as there's effectively no gank to speak of. But it's definitely a sub-cap and not a capital. (yes, technically the orca is a capital, but you know what I mean).

So I agree with you on the tank. This non-Black Ops Command Platform should have about 1.5x the orca's tank. And the tanks should be less hull and more armor/shield/racial.


Regarding CPU and PG: I think a 'standard' fit should require pretty good skills. (how's that for an ambiguous statement?)

What I would consider 'standard':
Quote:

Highs:
Expanded Probe Launcher
Improved Cloaking Device
3x Warfare Link modules

Mediums:
3-slot Tank
Propulsion Mod

Lows:
DCU
3x speed or cargo


This is the part that I just don't know enough about to give specific numbers you should trust. (though that doesn't stop me from trying)

CPU would need to be a bit more than the orca has currently. Probably in the 600ish range?

PG would need to be increased by quite a bit if you want this to have an active tank and/or propulsion mods. I'd say adding 1.5k - 3k to what the Orca has currently putting it in the 2.4k - 3.9k range.

Though really, I might as well throw darts at a wall for what my numbers here are worth.

I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#16 Posted: 2012.10.12 22:21
Any other feedback?
Advent of Fate
#17 Posted: 2012.11.08 11:26
Jin alPatar wrote:
Any other feedback?



I endorse this product!
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#18 Posted: 2012.11.08 13:25  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I'd just like to see the orca broken up into two industrial command ships:

One focused more strongly on boosts which can fit 3 gang links and has 4 high slots and has the corp hangar and ship maintenance hangar but no ore bay, and has a lesser tractor beam and asteroid scanner range bonus but more EHP.

The other one can only fit 1 gang link and has 3 high slots, but has an even larger ore bay (a MUCH larger ore bay) but no ship maintenance bay and only a small corporate hangar, and this one gets the full tractor beam and asteroid scanner bonus, and a 10k m3 mining crystal bay.

The reason I want to see this is divide is because I see so many people using the orca for only part of its potential. I think for the most part they would be happy to see two separate cheaper ships that can do their specific role even slightly better, while still being able to do the other role too. Also, encouraging larger mining fleets to roll with 2 industrial command ships (one of each) will encourage more pilots to fly things other than barges.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

And then I'd like to see a variety of mini-caps for combat use such as a mini-carrier with drone bonuses like the dominix, a stronger-than-battleship tank to go with its larger-than-battleship sig radius, and a ship maintenance bay like the orca, but maybe bigger. I think they should have a jump drive, but a very small fuel bay only capable of jumping very short distances. They could use gates too.

And also a mini-dreadnought /siege battleship which would fit 1 capital weapon and get a decent tracking bonus on it. It would have 3 high slots, so it can fit the cap weapon, the siege module, and a cloaking device/smartbomb/neut/whatever-the-pilot-wants-in-the-last-high-slot. This would also have a small jump capability but would be able to use gates. It would be useful for:
1.) sieging stations in less expensive and/or more mobile ships
2.) easier to hit battleships with these than with dreadnoughts
3.) can move your siege ships around without a cyno

Lastly, I don't know if it's just me or what, but I'd like to see a mini-cap that's essentially a huge battleship. It would have 8 high slots and 13 mids/lows, around 30k MW powergrid, and 4 total skill bonuses:
1 to racial remote reps
1 to racial guns
1 to racial EWAR
1 to racial defense
And role bonuses that increase its range with guns and remote reps, but decrease its tracking and also double cycle time with remote reps but double output (same HPS, slower to react).
Then this ship would have a full size bandwidth (125mb/s) and plenty of extra drone space, like at least 300m3 drone bay.
It'd have sig radius, speed, agility, scan resolution, targeting range, sensor strength and such befitting its size, and at least 10 max targets.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
#19 Posted: 2012.11.08 17:15
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'd just like to see the orca broken up into two industrial command ships:

One focused more strongly on boosts which can fit 3 gang links and has 4 high slots and has the corp hangar and ship maintenance hangar but no ore bay, and has a lesser tractor beam and asteroid scanner range bonus but more EHP.

The other one can only fit 1 gang link and has 3 high slots, but has an even larger ore bay (a MUCH larger ore bay) but no ship maintenance bay and only a small corporate hangar, and this one gets the full tractor beam and asteroid scanner bonus, and a 10k m3 mining crystal bay.

The reason I want to see this is divide is because I see so many people using the orca for only part of its potential. I think for the most part they would be happy to see two separate cheaper ships that can do their specific role even slightly better, while still being able to do the other role too. Also, encouraging larger mining fleets to roll with 2 industrial command ships (one of each) will encourage more pilots to fly things other than barges.


I like this. It makes sense. I think with the buffs mining barges have gotten the ore bay on the Orca is too limiting. And to use it's gang links effectively you need to have a dedicated hauler. I agree that it makes sense to have a vessel with a fairly enormous ore hold.

I think this ship type/size/class has a lot of potential. We've all seen threads outside of this one and it all boils down to giving more options in this size.

Quote:

And then I'd like to see a variety of mini-caps for combat use such as a mini-carrier with drone bonuses like the dominix, a stronger-than-battleship tank to go with its larger-than-battleship sig radius, and a ship maintenance bay like the orca, but maybe bigger. I think they should have a jump drive, but a very small fuel bay only capable of jumping very short distances. They could use gates too.


I mostly support this so long as it doesn't support fighters, just drones. (*maybe* even with a drone number bonus, but no more than 10 total drones)

Quote:

And also a mini-dreadnought /siege battleship which would fit 1 capital weapon and get a decent tracking bonus on it. It would have 3 high slots, so it can fit the cap weapon, the siege module, and a cloaking device/smartbomb/neut/whatever-the-pilot-wants-in-the-last-high-slot. This would also have a small jump capability but would be able to use gates. It would be useful for:
1.) sieging stations in less expensive and/or more mobile ships
2.) easier to hit battleships with these than with dreadnoughts
3.) can move your siege ships around without a cyno


I think that if you get the super-battleship below, then the mini-dread shouldn't exist. I feel like they'd be able to fill the same role and a bigger battleship would be more balanced than a mini-dread (just one man's opinion, though)

Quote:

Lastly, I don't know if it's just me or what, but I'd like to see a mini-cap that's essentially a huge battleship. It would have 8 high slots and 13 mids/lows, around 30k MW powergrid, and 4 total skill bonuses:
1 to racial remote reps
1 to racial guns
1 to racial EWAR
1 to racial defense
And role bonuses that increase its range with guns and remote reps, but decrease its tracking and also double cycle time with remote reps but double output (same HPS, slower to react).
Then this ship would have a full size bandwidth (125mb/s) and plenty of extra drone space, like at least 300m3 drone bay.
It'd have sig radius, speed, agility, scan resolution, targeting range, sensor strength and such befitting its size, and at least 10 max targets.


Great ideas! Keep em coming!
A T O N E M E N T
#20 Posted: 2012.11.08 18:26
Not going to lie, I really like the idea of a covert Orca. It would allow Nomadics to have some flexibility and could vastly assist covert gangs in enemy territory.
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