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New AI suxx for PvE. And it's very unfriendly to groups and new players :-(

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#1 Posted: 2012.12.14 19:19  |  Edited by: Dixi We
1. PvE games with roles (tank, support, healer and so on) are much more fun. Now with random aggro switching everyone in room should be tanked. Not fun at all for PvE players.

2. Drone users got hurt most. Before this change, if you check forums, there were several competitive ways to do missions:
- drone ships: Dominix, Ishtar, Ratttlesnake
- missile ships: Raven, CNR, Golem
- turret ships: Nightmare, Machariel, Paladin, Kronos
And there were many fans of each way, since they were different.
After AI change drone users are most upset, since other ways lost nothings. While we, drone users now need constantly watch for drones health and still loosing them much more then before.

3. It's absolutely impossible to play with newbie friends together. Before AI change it was fun to do level 4 missions together - they there looking, flying around, shooting frigate sized mobs, gathering loot and salvaging. Now it's all impossible due to random aggro switches. Whats the reason to play together if I have to filter my friends by "tank type and level"?!

I really see no point in such AI change.
What is it for?
- To prevent ninja salvaging? That was fun and social part of the game.
- To make players more used to sleepers AI? Many PvE oriented players just ignore wormhole existence due to "delayed local" and other problems, that makes trips there in PvE-pimped ships risky.
- To make all npc mobs similar? Make them all exactly same: one size, one type of damage, one loot...


I still can do same level 4 missions easy solo, but like many mission runners I was hoping to see group oriented content in high sec space. Instead we got "new AI" witch made grouping with casual players and friends almost useless, from game mechanic point of view.
#2 Posted: 2012.12.20 04:51  |  Edited by: Arkadelphia
I can agree. Corp just brought in a handful of young players who loved helping out on our high end ded sites...now they can't join us because they get slaughtered in their t1 cruisers. Tiericide to help new players...then A.I. Kicked them right back out of pve. Real shame and feel bad having do say sorry go rat the belts.

Also there are certain complexes where we have established someone will loose their ship..regardless of the number of ships we bring in. The aggro is too heavy as the number of ships wasn't balanced to match the new AI..even running heavy logi..yes we have had to bring logi into pve...ships go pop. We've resorted to suiciding cheap ships to kill off tackle before reshipping into tanky dps boats for the larger rats.

While I personally don't mind the A.I. changes, I find it rather interesting to see how certain changes are helping young players and others are owning them..which one do you want ccp?
#3 Posted: 2012.12.20 05:09
stop. older players need to tell new pilots how it is. if level 4 missions were easier, they'd be called level 3's.

I don't feel bad for new players attempting to pilot battleships or run level 4's. I stayed in cormorants and ran level 1 and 2 missions for two years because my corp told me to. there is such a thing as "old school."

to me, level 4 missions were the realm of gods for almost 3 years. respect them.

I carry the logi capability to keep newb pilots alive. ...2 month old mega pilots fitted with rails and 1 missile launcher, and full room aggro. If you will allow them in your fleet, you should be able to handle the rep burden.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III 
#4 Posted: 2012.12.20 06:27
Dixi We wrote:
but like many mission runners I was hoping to see group oriented content in high sec space


Join incursion communities - and fleets.
#5 Posted: 2012.12.20 12:25
Oh dear,
sorry but I expect you will get flamed alot. Especially for using words like "healer".

Anyway, one thought of you is quite valid I think. "Roles" are getting to the background. And that will make it hard to bring a Remote Repper, a DPS ship and a tanking ship. Wonder what CCP makes out of that? There are issues already for newer players. At some point there will be a monetary impact on ccp. After all the "power of two"-program will suffer as well. I cant dual box, when my tank isnt tanking anymore. What?

#6 Posted: 2012.12.20 12:36  |  Edited by: Rain6637
"tanking" is a somewhat exploit tactic that was patched.

honestly, did that feel normal to you, or like something was broken and you were gaming an AI.

everyone gets a piece http://i.imgur.com/UU5YH.jpg
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III 
Ixtab.
#7 Posted: 2012.12.20 13:10
Rain6637 wrote:
stop. older players need to tell new pilots how it is. if level 4 missions were easier, they'd be called level 3's.

I don't feel bad for new players attempting to pilot battleships or run level 4's. I stayed in cormorants and ran level 1 and 2 missions for two years because my corp told me to. there is such a thing as "old school."

to me, level 4 missions were the realm of gods for almost 3 years. respect them.

I carry the logi capability to keep newb pilots alive. ...2 month old mega pilots fitted with rails and 1 missile launcher, and full room aggro. If you will allow them in your fleet, you should be able to handle the rep burden.



You sir and people like you are the reason this game will live with the few old players. Do you honestly believe that a new player that can't have fun for the game he is paying (plexing is still paying also) he will continue to do it ? Also if you srtugled your way then that means everyone has to ?

If ccp wanted drone botters to stop then the only thing they should have done is to stop having drones automaticaly shoot next target . If the reason behind this is for people to go 0.0 or low sec then it is still not going to succeed. End the titan bridging on 0.0 and you will see more people going there especially those that hate blobs. For low sec i believe the steps made are positive and attractive now to more people.
Ride hard, live with passion 
#8 Posted: 2012.12.20 15:13
I agree with the OP, the Drone AI should stay out of missioning up to lv3 or 4 atleast. If you want players to fleet up, give them Lv 5's in highsec and apply the AI there. This change was overall very bad, since it hurts the farming of a lot of players - If ppl can't afford stuff they like or run out of money to afford plexes, customer base will likely drop.
#9 Posted: 2012.12.20 15:37  |  Edited by: Aptenodytes
Dixi We wrote:
1. PvE games with roles (tank, support, healer and so on) are much more fun

Go play them then. I'm not just saying that flippantly to dismiss your concerns. It's just basic common sense. If you do not enjoy something, don't pay to do it. If you would rather be doing something else, then go do it. Life is short.

Dixi We wrote:
3. It's absolutely impossible to play with newbie friends together. Before AI change it was fun to do level 4 missions together - they there looking, flying around, shooting frigate sized mobs, gathering loot and salvaging. Now it's all impossible due to random aggro switches.

This is the EVE equivalent of "power levelling". Older players running around getting all the aggro and dealing most of the damage, while newbies hang around picking off the stragglers and gaining massive benefits, which they could never achieve on their own.

I think most of those other games you talk about so fondly, frown upon power levelling as well? So why should it be allowed in EVE?

Dixi We wrote:
Whats the reason to play together if I have to filter my friends by "tank type and level"?!

You don't have to filter your friends. You have to filter the activities that you can do based on the group you are flying with. If you have a 1 week old character then you do level 2's. If you can all fly cruisers or BC (or LOGI) then you do level 3's. If you're all good enough for level 4's, then you do that. Or you give the newbie a Noctis or destroyer to salvage (maybe boring but it's a useful part of the group).

Or, you ADAPT. How about getting a couple of you grizzled vets into logi cruisers and keeping the newbro's cruisers alive in the L4's? In fact they don't even need good cap skills now, just decent resists and a buffer. I'm sure a group of cruisers could quite easily to a L4 with logi support.

Dixi We wrote:
I still can do same level 4 missions easy solo, but like many mission runners I was hoping to see group oriented content in high sec space.

Did I fall asleep and someone took incursions out of the game?
Ixtab.
#10 Posted: 2012.12.20 17:21
to the op.

Playing along is not power leveling. That way any raid on any mmo could not be existed just becuase you use more geared people to finish a raid so some other to get dressed. Powerleveling is also supported when it comes to professions , so that comment is not accurate to compare with eve.

The reasoning adapt or leave is not good when it comes to keep that game alive. Think that CCP has ruined the gameplay for many people atm. You see me saying that not becuase i want to be high sec you wont see me , but i do like the game and as any game new players are the most important thing to keep it alive. As soon as the community dies and all new subs are from our alts you will have a dead game
Ride hard, live with passion 
Gallente Federation
#11 Posted: 2012.12.20 17:28
Not sure what its like for high levels, but level 1 and 2 missions, its not hard to wait until about 20 km to release drones and to press shift+r as the enemies in the immediate surroundings are clear. You'll avoid almost all drone agro that way. Granted, not being able to safely send them from max range can be a bit of an annoyance, but a minor one at best.
#12 Posted: 2012.12.21 02:36  |  Edited by: Grombutz
Aptenodytes wrote:
Dixi We wrote:
1. PvE games with roles (tank, support, healer and so on) are much more fun

Go play them then. I'm not just saying that flippantly to dismiss your concerns. It's just basic common sense. If you do not enjoy something, don't pay to do it. If you would rather be doing something else, then go do it. Life is short.


How can you be that shortsighted? I'm someone who is totally unaffected by the change (Belt-rats aren't that hard even with tje new AI), but I can see how the behaviour you propose is bad for EvE in generell. Maybe it's time to open your mind?

Dixi We wrote:
3. It's absolutely impossible to play with newbie friends together. Before AI change it was fun to do level 4 missions together - they there looking, flying around, shooting frigate sized mobs, gathering loot and salvaging. Now it's all impossible due to random aggro switches.
This is the EVE equivalent of "power levelling". Older players running around getting all the aggro and dealing most of the damage, while newbies hang around picking off the stragglers and gaining massive benefits, which they could never achieve on their own.

I think most of those other games you talk about so fondly, frown upon power levelling as well? So why should it be allowed in EVE?


You know that this "power leveling" (lol btw!) is something that keeps new players here? The option to earn serious ISK by the help of others is probably the only good thing as a new player in EvE. One of these options just died with the AI, which is not even remotely a good change. We will see what CCP will do once affected players stop paying.

Dixi We wrote:
Whats the reason to play together if I have to filter my friends by "tank type and level"?!
You don't have to filter your friends. You have to filter the activities that you can do based on the group you are flying with. If you have a 1 week old character then you do level 2's. If you can all fly cruisers or BC (or LOGI) then you do level 3's. If you're all good enough for level 4's, then you do that. Or you give the newbie a Noctis or destroyer to salvage (maybe boring but it's a useful part of the group).

Or, you ADAPT. How about getting a couple of you grizzled vets into logi cruisers and keeping the newbro's cruisers alive in the L4's? In fact they don't even need good cap skills now, just decent resists and a buffer. I'm sure a group of cruisers could quite easily to a L4 with logi support.


Oh yeah, adapt and bring some logi-pilots... you will need atleast 2 of them, and this makes you even more dependant from other players ;) Previously you could just say "hey newb, come one over and shoot some stuff" - this will be a "sry newb, we need to wait for logis" now - ofcourse this might work in WH's with specialized infrastructure and carrier-pilots, but it just won't work with newbs...

Dixi We wrote:
I still can do same level 4 missions easy solo, but like many mission runners I was hoping to see group oriented content in high sec space.
Did I fall asleep and someone took incursions out of the game?


You never tried incursions as a newb right? Did you know that it takes atleast 2 Months of pure training before someone would ever think about taking you there? I bet you didn't. Seriously, you need good infrastructure to do incursions in a competetive way and you will need some good ammounts of SP and a good ammount of ISK.. something that newbs don't have. Ofcourse even neewbie-corps can adapt, but it will take a long time because of a change which brought close to 0 benefits.

Anyway - main problem is that LV 4's should be a playground to gain ISK - making it harder to achieve reasonable ISK gains is not helpful. While older players don't have a problem with this, drone users and newbs are getting facepunched for no reason at all - rats killing your drones isn't more engaging, it's just a hassle and an annoyance. This was not the reason for the change, so it failed horrible in regards to missions - and to some degree on complex's.

Ofcourse, jealous idiots crying about missioning income won't get the deal, but yeah, I don't expect ya to do so anyway.
#13 Posted: 2012.12.21 02:58
Grombutz wrote:
I agree with the OP, the Drone AI should stay out of missioning up to lv3 or 4 atleast. If you want players to fleet up, give them Lv 5's in highsec and apply the AI there. This change was overall very bad, since it hurts the farming of a lot of players - If ppl can't afford stuff they like or run out of money to afford plexes, customer base will likely drop.

Drone AI certainly is no problem at all in level 1 and 2 missions. Haven't checked out the others since retribution, currently playing a new toon with emphasis on drones.

Actually, my ofc subjective opinion is, that tiercide improved things so much for frigate to cruiser size ships, that level 1 and 2 got a decent nerf in difficulty.
Remove insurance.
#14 Posted: 2012.12.21 10:14
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Grombutz wrote:
I agree with the OP, the Drone AI should stay out of missioning up to lv3 or 4 atleast. If you want players to fleet up, give them Lv 5's in highsec and apply the AI there. This change was overall very bad, since it hurts the farming of a lot of players - If ppl can't afford stuff they like or run out of money to afford plexes, customer base will likely drop.

Drone AI certainly is no problem at all in level 1 and 2 missions. Haven't checked out the others since retribution, currently playing a new toon with emphasis on drones.

Actually, my ofc subjective opinion is, that tiercide improved things so much for frigate to cruiser size ships, that level 1 and 2 got a decent nerf in difficulty.


I admit that I don't have a clue about missions after this change, yes, so it's completely subjective from my side aswell. We will see what happens in the future though, and I can't see anything good here.
#15 Posted: 2012.12.21 11:30  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Aptenodytes wrote:

Or, you ADAPT. How about getting a couple of you grizzled vets into logi cruisers and keeping the newbro's cruisers alive in the L4's? In fact they don't even need good cap skills now, just decent resists and a buffer. I'm sure a group of cruisers could quite easily to a L4 with logi support.


yep this. I'm tooting my own horn, but yeah... I can keep a lot of crap alive. if gangmates seem sketchy in the tank department, I bring rattlesnakes with L shield drones. if it looks like a failfleet I'll bring proper logistics (basilisks).

it's also a great opportunity to show them ships and weapons they've never seen before. my favorites are harpys and flycatchers. battleship-eating frigates and 2.5km/s rocket destroyers make an impression.

surely, a decent alliance has -some- capable logistics pilots who believe in teamwork (especially a high sec one)

____________________________________

ah, sh*t. I said this already
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III 
Gallente Federation
#16 Posted: 2012.12.21 11:52  |  Edited by: Ra Jackson
What is this drivel about Newbs in lvl4 missions? They are not supposed to run them, and if they do it's just reasonable to ask for proper logistics to keep them alive.
Real Newbs should start at lvl1, earn their first cruiser alone, and so on. If you blow the ISK up their behinds you take a good part of the excitement and the essential first experiences away.
#17 Posted: 2012.12.21 11:54  |  Edited by: Aptenodytes
Quote:
What is this drivel about Newbs in lvl4 missions? They are not supposed to run them, and if they do it's just reasonable to ask for proper logistics to keep them alive.

EXACTLY.

I'm pretty sure 5 new players could do level 4's quite easily, as long as 2 of them are in Ospreys. It's probably better to have at least one experienced player there, to co-ordinate them and help them stay alive; he can tell the other Osprey what to do. Sitting around for hours waiting for a pair of Basilisk pilots is simply unnecessary with the T1 cruiser changes. It's called teamwork people. Just because you can no longer invite newbies to just sit there popping a few frigs earning millions, does not mean the world is ending... put some freaking effort into finding a way to play together, rather than just complaining!
Vitoc Health Services
#18 Posted: 2012.12.21 13:02
[Exequror, Mission Assistance]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Capacitor Power Relay II

10MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Small Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

With all V, stable.
If you have a newb who is supposed to fly it, 1 medium and 1 small RR will work, too.
Don't be afraid of the tank this thing can provide to a Battleship. I repped a Navy Mega vs stage aggro in an augoror with 2 small T2 reps.

[Augoror, Mission support]
Reactive Armor Hardener
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Limited Energized Adaptive Membrane I
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN Afterburner II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
empty rig slot
empty rig slot



If you have a battleship with a spare highslot, fit a large regard power projector. Build capchain, use 2 mids and 2 rigs for whatever you feel is necessary. Tracking links, for example, as you will hug the battleship anyways.

And yeah, basically, both of these ships can support 1 or more Armor Mission BS who will be able to drop local tank, go for 3 hardeners (or 4, whatever), can drop capmods, fit tracking comps and more damage, while orbiting with it's afterburner around and permarunning it's 2 medium local reppers at a sig of 90m.





Concerning the dronehating NPCs: I have so far recognized in my vexor (yeah, lol) in 0.0 belts (yeah, no missions, but dem devs say dem ai be de same) that NPCs will shoot medium drones if there are medium drones out. I use a Hob, 2 Hammers and 2 Ogres, and IF they switch on a drone, it's ALWAYS one of the hammerheads. No exceptions.
So maybe you should try using a Navy Medium drone that will orbit you close while 4 large or small drones mop up the field. If you have spare highs or a buddy in a support cruiser with you - i made a hobgoblin tank stageaggro in a Mordus with 3 small t2 reps on it.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 Posted: 2012.12.21 13:02
Wow, carebear tears abound. Generally, in almost every MMO, you can't do the harder content without some progression first. The new AI makes farming an activity, at least slightly more interesting then warp in, put out sentries, go make sammich, come back in a while and loot. PVE content needs to be somewhat challenging at the higher levels, instead of a mindless semi-afk grind for isk. Personally, I think the newer AI actually encourages teamplay, the only difference is that if you want to bring along new players (that really aren't equipped to deal with the content) along, you have to be more on top of your game and provide them with some help. As opposed to "Hey, warp in now I've got all the aggro" and then then they can run around and shoot/loot with no repercussions. Adapt or ragequit.
Gallente Federation
#20 Posted: 2012.12.21 14:39
Talon Reese wrote:
The new AI makes farming an activity, at least slightly more interesting then warp in, put out sentries, go make sammich, come back in a while and loot. PVE content needs to be somewhat challenging at the higher levels, instead of a mindless semi-afk grind for isk.


Pretty much this... don't hate on CCP when it was the activities of players that let to the change.
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