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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Ultimate Space
#1221 - 2013-01-17 17:14:23 UTC
POS FIX or GTFO
#1222 - 2013-01-17 17:14:34 UTC
Two step wrote:


Respectfully (because you are a giant and can crush me), I think you misinterpreted my post.

What I said was:
1) CCP has decided to not do modular POSes all at once
2) CCP has not decided what they will be working on this Summer
3) CCP did say that modular POSes would matter for only a small population of players

What I am trying to do with my blog post and this thread is demonstrate to CCP that #3 is wrong, and that POSes should be a part of the summer expansion (#2).


This is exactly what I said but with better words!
I don't think many people have problems with number 1, they understand this.

People are upset at number 2 because they have been waiting and it always seems to be put off.

Number three was definitely stated and that is why we are posting to prove it wrong!
#1223 - 2013-01-17 17:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nair Alderau
Everybody here, remember: We knew of this early enough. The design phase for the summer expansion is begining right now.

Be firm, be constructive, be polite. Keep up a gentle pressure.
#1224 - 2013-01-17 17:15:01 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


And yet it isn't a priority like we were led to believe it will be not to mention the player base wants it to be
Pandemic Legion
#1225 - 2013-01-17 17:15:22 UTC
I uses POSes, Corp uses POSes, Alliance uses POSes ... Builders and Researchers uses POSes , WH dwellvers uses POSes.

In my eyes ... That is a not a minority in EVE. Please start working on the POSEs
#1226 - 2013-01-17 17:16:01 UTC
Jakob Anedalle wrote:
I am a newish (less than 1 year) player and I want a POS. It can be tiny - like an "Extra Small." Maybe it can only dock a few ships, has a "Sole Proprietor" sized industrial module with five manufacturing slots and one research slot. Maybe the shields are so small that a single Battleship could put it into reinforced in an hour. But give me a place to start, a place to try things out, so later I can earn my way up to a "real" POS. Some way so that a solo or small group of new players don't have to sign up for somebody else's huge corporation and become cogs just to learn the ropes.


Long ago they fluttered around the idea of harnessing an asteroid to make a "personal hanger" but it never got off the ground.

It'd be nice to do that, then make nullsec outposts destructable.
Amarr Empire
#1227 - 2013-01-17 17:16:13 UTC
Checking in.

All the previous talk about POSes hyped me up and the CSM minutes made me really disappointed. I am located both in high and nullsec and in low too from time to time. POSes are affecting my everyday activities directly and remotely everywhere all the time. There is a reason why so many people are so enthusiastic about it.

I don't mind sitting through a few more expansions with small features if that is the price, but please don't let the idea shrink!
Caldari State
#1228 - 2013-01-17 17:16:47 UTC
I want a POS revamp so people who are put off by the current system can enjoy building a 'home' out in space!
#1229 - 2013-01-17 17:16:56 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:


From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"




You found two little nuggets in the CSM minutes, but this here from the Null Sec portion on page 37 is what really screams out to me

"UAxDEATH disagreed and brought up an example of priorities like POSes, “you promised us those things”. Greyscale replied that coming into meetings with the mindset of CCP promising a certain feature is a fallacious, and flat-out wrong, mindset. With conversation now completely deteriorating,

Unifex took control of the conversation and spoke about POSes. Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”."

So this makes it sound like POSes are not important and not going to get attention.
#1230 - 2013-01-17 17:17:11 UTC
Of coursebyou dont have to reiterate the poses all in one go. That would be suicide, but I think you're selling yourself short - you CCP has just linked two worlds on two different pieces of hardware in to one almost homogeneous unit with Dust 514. Refactoring old code is a thankless task but you CCP brought Carbon into the world so it can be done.

If outposts can have personal hangers why not poses? They could be limited in storage of course, but its too early to talk anoit the detail.

Rework the code so that its more easily manageable and get back to us.

Have fun and stay warm.

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1231 - 2013-01-17 17:17:19 UTC
Please fix the pos mechanics. It really needs some attention
Minmatar Republic
#1232 - 2013-01-17 17:17:55 UTC
As a CEO and recruiter for a large wormhole-based corporation I have to spend HOURS!!! on each and every recruit for a lone reason of current POS-system lacking ability to secure pilots' and corporation assets!

And now I find myself and other alliance members and all those people who voted for Two Step (like it or not, he is WH candidate) and put him into top-voted-for - now we all are "a small portion of the community." !!!
inPanic
#1233 - 2013-01-17 17:18:05 UTC
Upgrade plz
Beagle von Space
#1234 - 2013-01-17 17:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Beagle von Space
People, including CCP, might be conceptualizing how to deal with the problem the wrong way. The two schools of thought seem to be incremental improvements on the current POS system and a completely new system that will replace POSes in one fell swoop. I can see the former being too piecemeal and inherently flawed because the underlying code is inherently flawed. The second may be too much to be tackled all at once.

So how about creating a parallel system, let's call it "Space Houses" (SH), that will exist alongside POSes for a few years and slowly make POSes obsolete as more and more functions are added?

Assign one team, and only one team, to work on SH. Their job is to list all of the things people currently use POSes for (refining, research, manufacture, storage, etc.), and then pretend that POSes do not exist. If CCP were to try to implement these features for players NOW, how would they go about doing it?

Start small. Maybe the first feature is just a simple, scalable research SH. But it's built on an underlying spine that lets you "dock" and manage all of the research modules attached all at once. Hopefully players would start replacing their research POSes with research SHes.

This spine would be open ended so they could add additional functions each expansions. Perhaps next they add the refining component, then the manufacturing one. It might be a few years before they get to the point where players can start storing and managing their ships in a SH, but by then the code would be robust and well tested.



A couple of months ago I stopped playing EVE and am letting my account expire. One of the things that I considered doing in-game was getting into manufacturing/research, but all the guides I read on the topic made the hassle of dealing with POSes sound like far too much work for a game.

(I heard about this issue because I still follow the EVE community on Reddit. There was so much discussion on POSes for so long, that to hear that CCP is considering not addressing them seemed like something worth commenting on.)

"EVE is hard" is different from "EVE is obtuse, cluttered, repetitive, buggy, and tedious."

POSes as they currently exist are a DETERRENT for a lot of people who might want to delve into the world-building side of EVE. It might look like a "small part of the community" because there are a lot of players who choose never to touch this onerous part of the game.



Edit: CCP Gargant has stated, in post #1172 of this thread:

CCP Gargant wrote:
Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE


So it looks like CCP has, thankfully, not abandoned the idea. Even if it is slowly, in bits and pieces, it would likely be best for the community that work start on this very soon.
#1235 - 2013-01-17 17:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nair Alderau
Two step wrote:
Respectfully (because you are a giant and can crush me), I think you misinterpreted my post.

What I said was:
1) CCP has decided to not do modular POSes all at once
2) CCP has not decided what they will be working on this Summer
3) CCP did say that modular POSes would matter for only a small population of players

What I am trying to do with my blog post and this thread is demonstrate to CCP that #3 is wrong, and that POSes should be a part of the summer expansion (#2).


Reposting this, because it is important.

I'd add that I am doubtful that iterating on POSes as they are now can actually lead to the desirable endgoal of modular, scalable POSes that can allow docking, coexist on one grid and also be somewhere but just moons.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1236 - 2013-01-17 17:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Fred Lodenstane
Fix the damn POSs already. I've never set up one or used one beyond just sitting in the shields I understand the pain that logibros go through so I can have fun playing a terrible game about internet spaceships.

Also its interesting how few people in NPC corps are posting in this thread. I guess everyone outside of such corps are a minority. Even those who do are supporting this.
Last Calamity
#1237 - 2013-01-17 17:19:10 UTC
Two step wrote:

Respectfully (because you are a giant and can crush me), I think you misinterpreted my post.

What I said was:
1) CCP has decided to not do modular POSes all at once
2) CCP has not decided what they will be working on this Summer
3) CCP did say that modular POSes would matter for only a small population of players

What I am trying to do with my blog post and this thread is demonstrate to CCP that #3 is wrong, and that POSes should be a part of the summer expansion (#2).


I second Two Step here. In my prior post I simply tried to outline the number of people POSes (and their current mechanics) affect. As someone who has worked with Software Engineers, I do not expect an overnight miracle. The POS system in its current form is cumbersome and intimidating to new POS managers. Even a UI rework and some security to the existing modules this summer would be greatly appreciated.
Amarr Empire
#1238 - 2013-01-17 17:19:21 UTC
Strangely I didnt read all 62 pages so I am going to assume that others have said all the things that need fixing. Fix pls.
#1239 - 2013-01-17 17:19:53 UTC
Even i who for most of my eve life have been one of those "lurkers" use POS'es and would
dearly love to see them made more ...., well more everything really, easier to use, easier to deploy
easier to... you get my point

thow
inPanic
#1240 - 2013-01-17 17:20:07 UTC
we realy need this upgrade

all t2 and t3 production is comming from posses
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