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[proposal] Roll back timers of faction warfare complexes when they are not actively being captured

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#1 - 2013-06-27 22:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: paritybit
Faction warfare complexes are a broken mechanic. 'Plexers' fly empty ships, warp core stabilized ships, cloaking ships and have almost zero risk in exchange for the loyalty points they are earning. They can do this with day-old characters. There is no way for another player (whether it is a pirate or an opposing faction) to stop the plexer as they can just warp from complex to complex in a single system running each one down a little until they end up back where they started. My assertion is that players who are actively taking part in capturing a complex and fly in ships capable of defending the complex should be rewarded more than players who risk almost nothing.

Empty ships are relatively easy to catch, though there is ample warning and time to escape. Warp core stabilized ships can be killed with a large alpha or multiple points, but often they will warp off. Cloaking ships can be found with enough effort. I am not arguing that there is no counter, but the effort in comparison to the risk is herculean.

I've spoken with people taking advantage of the brokenness. They admit it is broken and there is no risk. I often see new characters (sometimes created that day) who are in faction warfare plexing -- these are never brand new players; they are veterans taking advantage of a broken system.

Faction warfare complex timers should roll back when not actively being run down by a faction warfare pilot. I don't want this to be bogged down by specifics, so I won't indicate at what rate the timers should roll back (but I expect it should be at least at the same rate they are captured and possibly vary depending on the occupant of the complex).

Full disclosure: I am a pirate who often preys on plexers; most of the time I am solo, and often times I am not the victor. This is not a proposal to assure I gather more killmails.
#2 - 2013-06-28 01:45:11 UTC
+1

paritybit wrote:
Full disclosure: I am a pirate who often preys on plexers; most of the time I am solo, and often times I am not the victor. This is not a proposal to assure I gather more killmails.

I support this, also not because I want more killmails, but because this broken mechanic leads to dissatisfying gameplay. My rough estimate is a full 1/2 to 2/3 of plexers warp off/cloak/otherwise avoid conflict. Now sometimes this is justified, but many times it's avoiding an even or advantageous fight.

The broken FW system also leads to things like this, something so efficient at avoiding conflict, it is tremendously difficult to counter solo, or even with multiple players.
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#3 - 2013-07-03 15:51:10 UTC
+1

CCP said they would do this but then got distracted into fiddling with the way lp is paid out. (end result: fw still broken) I would love to know if this is still being worked on.

People who want to run and hide from all pvp would still be able to do fw missions. Please allow plexing to be a pvp mechanic.

Anyone who wants to see how to win sov under the current mechanics can go here:

https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx

Look up the pilots and most "vp points yesterday" and copy the fits they used that day.

If they didn't lose or kill any ships that day (despite having a huge impact on sov) it should tell you something.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

#4 - 2013-07-03 18:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: paritybit
I didn't realize you could get the stats that way. It's very interesting.

Seven of the top 10 in the VictoryPointsLastWeek section have none or very few engagements recorded on eve-kill, those that do primarily lose unfitted ships or fit more than one warp core stabilizer. For example, the top character for victory points last week was Mitsuyo Ichinumi who only lost unfit condors. Devora Dora (4th) is only 2 weeks old and has no recorded kills or losses. And Last Starfigter (7th) has no recorded kills or losses. Others have very few kills or losses, but are losing primarily warp core stabilized ships to ships with large alpha or those of us smart enough to fit multiple points and get lucky catching them.

Edit: In fact, if you look at the CorpoISK corporation's kill history and members, you will see that they are all losing unfitted or warp core stabilized ships and some members are have been on both sides of the war (Pak Zeitgeist). Two of its members are in the top ten last week (Devora Dora and Last Starfigter). This is pretty obviously taking advantage of a broken system. I'd love to link to killboards here.
#5 - 2013-07-03 22:20:47 UTC
+1

I am in FW to easily support my pvp habit. However not having the timers roll back is just silly. Both from a lore pov and a gameplay pov.

I personally would also go a step further by removing LP for D-plexing. And add multiple single ship spawns in plex's to ensure that you need at least a combat (not nesicassrily) a pvp fit ship to run them. You could have the second and subsequent npc's not stop the timer so a novice plex doesn't take a year to cap after the initial npc is killed but it would keep the plexer 'active'

As for the removal of LP for d-plexing. I originally thought that LP should be given for d-plexing but now after experianceing months of unfitted LP farmers I am of the opinion that removing it would aid the WZ dynamics greatly. Currently when a faction reaches Teir 3 the farmer flock to said faction and d-plex the crap out of contested systems as the gains are hugh with little to no effort/risk. This also makes the WZ become very static as the 'losing' side finds it very difficult to fight both the pvp'ers and farmers of the 'winning' side to cap systems.





Actually now that I think about it. remove LP for d-plexing would probably be the easiest and most effective method of increaseing pvp and less LP farming.......and if my tinfoil is one right this would have the net benefit of increasing the number of ships lost, therfore increasing the overall isk sink that FW is designed to be economically......

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-07-04 02:02:30 UTC
Should role back a lot faster than they tick down imo.

like 4s every sec

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Villore Accords
#7 - 2013-07-04 11:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Garan Nardieu
Absolutely agree with this proposal. There have been several other threads on this subject, so let's hope someone gets on sorting it out.

Quote:
Should role back a lot faster than they tick down imo.

like 4s every sec


Agreed.

Also I suggest multiple NPC spawns during countdown (say once every n/5 minutes, n being the original plex timer) and balancing of npcs so that a cloaky stabbed condor can't take out NPC cruisers. (sorry Taoist, only read your post after I posted x)).

As for LP for Dplexing, that is less of a problem I thought it would be initially in terms of farming. You'll mostly see farmers offensive plexing, usually in backwater/quiet systems anyway. They are all about efficiency of their efforts so Dplexing is not their primary concern. If Dplex payouts were to change I'd go with my original proposal (made before LP for Dplex was introduced) - direct defensive plexing LPs to system upgrade status contributions. No LP's for farmers, but some rewards for defenders.

Some other fw related stuff:
- Would also be nice if they balanced FW missions across races, but that's another story.
- give us system upgrade benefits which were originally proposed pre-retribution.
Fly Fearless
#8 - 2013-07-04 12:00:37 UTC
+1 for this proposal - personally I think they should roll back 4 times faster so if a stabbed cloaky LP farmer cloaks up in a plex I enter I can hang around (as a neutral pirate) and let it count down quickly. If the farmer isn't willing to fight for his LP rewards he doesn't deserve them!
Thermodynamics
#9 - 2013-07-04 18:36:36 UTC
+1 would love to see this implemented

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

#10 - 2013-07-05 23:58:58 UTC
I think they should shake up the complexes a bit. Remove the idea of small, medium and large complexes [its too predictable], make multiple people decrease the amount of time to capture an area [for of course reduced reward when multiple people do a plex as now], maybe add those roll-back timers, maybe multiple capture areas of a complex [say some will have three outposts instead of one] and when you enter a plex maybe generate random npcs [of same or different types, frigs with battleships for example], get rid of the acceleration gates.

#11 - 2013-07-08 01:43:02 UTC
It's faction WARfare not carebear
Spaceship Bebop
#12 - 2013-07-12 16:05:16 UTC
+1 depending on how it is implemented.
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-07-12 16:44:27 UTC
Basically, promoting some thoughts of mine here.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3329509#post3329509


Starts at first linked posting, walls of text, maybe hard to understand at first try, especially since i'm not a native english speaker.
Few questions, anwers and clarifications in following posts. Would be glad if interested people start debating it, why it's good, why it's bad, how it's exploitable etc etc.


and a +1 for this thread in general
Milan Nantucket
#14 - 2013-07-12 23:12:18 UTC
+1

The timer could go by how many are in the plex.

More friendlies faster timer.
More enemies/neuts the timer slows and possibly goes backwards

So if a players of Caldari is capturing a Gallente and he is by himself then it goes normal speed.
If a gallente militia or neut enters the time then stops dead until one of them leaves.

Mulitple neuts/enemies (more than Caldari milita) show up the timer counts downward.

You get the idea... want the plex then work together to get it.
#15 - 2013-07-12 23:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
i fully support any kind of "timer resets" or "backwards running timers" proposals. It was even considered for inferno and i basically mentioned it in every thread i saw devs lurking back than. But devs dropped it (they probably ran out of time, can't remember the reason).

there are several different versions which do more or less the same:
- timer reset (immediate)
- backwards running (slow but automatic)
- quick decontest (timer runs faster till default state is reached)

so game designers would have enough options to balance it up and down (could be even system upgrade lvl dependent)

so yeah +1


edit: what makes me a bit sad is that CCP repeatedly tried to fix the problem but they never fixed it at the root: there is still no incentive to stay in a plex and fight. Plexers which run make progress with 0 risk investment (still). There should be no progress if you can't defend a plex. Plex layout changes didn't help (people where complaining back then that they can't point plexers quick enough since the beacon was too far away from the warpin -> bullshit that was not the problem the problem was and still is that there is no incentive to fight)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-07-13 12:01:48 UTC
I don't see why, an armed militia pilot will always make an unarmed weeks old farmer take off and they can wind back down the plex themselves and get their own LP if they want it. It's not like the farmer poses any danger to anyone with a gun.

The plexes aren't there for pirates to get goodfites or whatever so the fact that he isn't forced to stay in the plex when a neutral warps in is working as intended, neuts aren't supposed to have a big effect on the outcome of sovereignty or it's gonna get abused to hell and back.
I sure don't want to see people starting to use non-milita alts for defensive plexing because you get no warning in local, that would be much worse than whatever frustration you get for not catching a guy with WCS.

For the record i never used an unarmed or stabbed ship in a plex. But i do sometimes warp out when some neut tard warps in, sue me.
#17 - 2013-07-13 16:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Chinwe Rhei wrote:
I don't see why, an armed militia pilot will always make an unarmed weeks old farmer take off and they can wind back down the plex themselves and get their own LP if they want it. It's not like the farmer poses any danger to anyone with a gun.


what do you think the alt does while you undo the damage he did in the plex? he plexes another system or waits at you in the other plex in the same system. Now you can choose tho hunt him around all the time or decontest. In any case he already won since you alone can not undo the damage he did while he runs or plexes. His risk investment: 0, he probably multiboxes mutiple pexes at once. Your risk investment: a combat ship. He makes progress while running away, you do not while willing to fight. Why should you plex in combat ships again?

why should you be able to take over systems without being able to defend the plex you are in? Imagine it is war and everybody cloaks.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-07-13 17:02:56 UTC
Chinwe Rhei wrote:
I don't see why, an armed militia pilot will always make an unarmed weeks old farmer take off and they can wind back down the plex themselves and get their own LP if they want it. It's not like the farmer poses any danger to anyone with a gun.

The plexes aren't there for pirates to get goodfites or whatever so the fact that he isn't forced to stay in the plex when a neutral warps in is working as intended, neuts aren't supposed to have a big effect on the outcome of sovereignty or it's gonna get abused to hell and back.
I sure don't want to see people starting to use non-milita alts for defensive plexing because you get no warning in local, that would be much worse than whatever frustration you get for not catching a guy with WCS.

For the record i never used an unarmed or stabbed ship in a plex. But i do sometimes warp out when some neut tard warps in, sue me.




Please note how you, if you want to have the LP from the site you scared the farmer away, have to run a timer for LONGER than default and get paid the SAME. It's UNATTRACTIVE to run these sites if you're for the LP. So if you want those LP for yourself, you ignore the farmer and go get your own plex. And at this time you might actually just change ship to a farming WCS cloaky aswell.

Which makes plexing a PvE expierience unless you have guys entering plexes in hope for enemies who are also up for pvp wanna shoo away the bad farmer or actually get a fight.

And most of the time once a fight's on the horizon people tend to call in as much backup as possible, but can't blame em, it's their blindness for killboard effectiveness.
#19 - 2013-07-13 17:41:58 UTC
Sounds like a fair proposal.

+1

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

#20 - 2013-07-13 17:46:56 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Imagine it is war and everybody cloaks.


Thanks, got myself a new sig.

Also I fully support this. I've had some great fights against FW plexers but they are extremely rare.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."

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