Science & Industry

 
^ Back to top

Topic is locked indefinitely.

4 Pages123Next pageLast page
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Iteration on Ore Prospecting Array sites

Jump to first DEV post
Author
C C P Alliance
#1 Posted: 2013.08.08 11:41  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Greetings miners and interested third parties.

We had to push one of our planned mining changes out from Odyssey 1.0 due to time constraints, but fortunately we have been able to get it ready now for Odyssey 1.1.

After Odyssey 1.1 the ore sites spawned by the Ore Prospecting Array upgrade will be higher quality in better truesec space.
We're also making some changes to the base OPA sites.

Changes for all truesec levels to adjust mineral supply and relative value between sites:

Large Asteroid Cluster:
Convert both Scordite asteroids to Plagioclase (300,000 units)

Enormous Asteroid Cluser (formerly known as Extra Large Asteroid Cluser):
Convert all 12 Omber asteroids to Hedbergite (500,000 units)

Colossal Asteroid Cluser (formerly known as Giant Asteroid Cluser):
Convert all 6 Pyroxeres asteroids to Hemorphite (480,000 units)

Changes based on truesec:

For systems with truesec between -0.0 and -0.44:
No change

For systems with truesec between -0.45 and -0.84:
All ores in the Large, Enormous (formerly X-Large), and Collosal (formerly Giant) clusters will be the +5% upgraded variants

For systems with truesec between -0.85 and -1.0:
All ores in the Large, Enormous (formerly X-Large), and Collosal (formerly Giant) clusters will be the +10% upgraded variants

:PSA about oddities immediately post-patch:
For the first day or so after 1.1 releases there may be some odd behavior with the ore upgrade amoms (most common symptom is both the old and new types of belts appearing in the system at the same time). This should go away in a few days at most, and should in almost all cases be gone by the second downtime after the patch.
Get Off My Lawn
#2 Posted: 2013.08.08 12:12
For clarity can you please confirm that the Truesec rounds mathematically?

So -0.85 or lower will receive the +10% ores.
Fidelas Constans
#3 Posted: 2013.08.08 12:41
Basil Vulpine wrote:
For clarity can you please confirm that the Truesec rounds mathematically?

So -0.85 or lower will receive the +10% ores.

Not empty quoting
Goonswarm Federation
#4 Posted: 2013.08.08 12:46
It's nice to see these changes being iterated on but it doesn't seem to fix the fundamental problem of insufficient Mex in null.

Assuming the design goal is stimulation of industry in null providing minerals in ratios useful to the production of ship hulls especially caps, SC and Titans with excess high ends to be shipped back to highsec to allow for production there. This would achieve good risk vs reward for the mining career in null and make null production a reality.

With or without these changes post odyssey mining doesn't achieve this. Regardless of what combination of belts you mine in a null system you cannot produce enough mex to combine with the other low ends to actually produce. As soon as you need to import any lowend you need compression to make it feasible to ship which exacerbates the problem by giving you even more of the other lowends you didn't need.

Despite my excitement at the pre odyssey talk the most efficient way to build supers is still to buy all minerals in highsec > compress to rails > refine in null > build.

Please consider a further iteration of these changes based on a model of cycling belts to produce quantities of mineral suitable to build a statistically average supercarrier or 6 carriers to 3 dreads racial mix. This is the only way nullsec production will become a reality without the daft compression systems.
Brothers of Tangra
#5 Posted: 2013.08.08 12:56
In addition to what is said above, Pyerite is on the edge of not being enough, but to remove a large component of Pyerite (Scordite) to make more Mex (Plagio) isn't going to cut it.

Maybe doubling the amount of Mex from Plagio or Gneiss would help

Basically we need ALOT of help for Mex, but NOT at the expense of Pyerite
C C P Alliance
#6 Posted: 2013.08.08 12:58
Basil Vulpine wrote:
For clarity can you please confirm that the Truesec rounds mathematically?

So -0.85 or lower will receive the +10% ores.


This is correct. I'll edit the post to be more specific.
Goonswarm Federation
#7 Posted: 2013.08.08 14:02  |  Edited by: Tetania
To illustrate my point here is a screen grab of a spreadsheet created by my supercap production corp based on the odyssey nullsec belt changes updated with the changes you intend to make in Odessey 1.1.

http://i.imgur.com/KFyIQD8.png

It's a little crude but it clearly shows that the mineral ratios for building a BS hull, Supercarrier or Titan are broadly the same. The racial biases over a large varied production run average out to be inconsequential.

If we focus on any of the sample builds it is very quickly obvious that the number of times you need to mine any belt to produce the required mex is an order of magnitude more than to produce any other required mineral volume. It is obviously desirable for there to be an excess of high ends to be shipped back to highsec and they have a value/volume ratio which encourages that. Transporting raw Mex on the other hand is totally prohibitive. It simply isn't economical to jump freighter mex 2 or 3 jumps into nullsec.

Are we to assume that you want us to eat the wasted low ends as a cost of doing business in null? Using the Nyx as an example by the most efficient combination of belt cycling you would be trashing 500,000,000 Trit per Nyx constructed. That is over half the trit needed to make another Nyx. It cannot be built into anything or reasonably compressed without mex so trashed is not an exaggeration.

I hope this clearly illustrates the point and you take another look at either the refine ratios or the asteroid ratios in the anomalies in null.
Protean Concept
#8 Posted: 2013.08.08 14:52
Tetania wrote:
To illustrate my point here is a screen grab of a spreadsheet created by my supercap production corp based on the odyssey nullsec belt changes updated with the changes you intend to make in Odessey 1.1.

http://i.imgur.com/KFyIQD8.png

It's a little crude but it clearly shows that the mineral ratios for building a BS hull, Supercarrier or Titan are broadly the same. The racial biases over a large varied production run average out to be inconsequential.

If we focus on any of the sample builds it is very quickly obvious that the number of times you need to mine any belt to produce the required mex is an order of magnitude more than to produce any other required mineral volume. It is obviously desirable for there to be an excess of high ends to be shipped back to highsec and they have a value/volume ratio which encourages that. Transporting raw Mex on the other hand is totally prohibitive. It simply isn't economical to jump freighter mex 2 or 3 jumps into nullsec.

Are we to assume that you want us to eat the wasted low ends as a cost of doing business in null? Using the Nyx as an example by the most efficient combination of belt cycling you would be trashing 500,000,000 Trit per Nyx constructed. That is over half the trit needed to make another Nyx. It cannot be built into anything or reasonably compressed without mex so trashed is not an exaggeration.

I hope this clearly illustrates the point and you take another look at either the refine ratios or the asteroid ratios in the anomalies in null.



This
Goonswarm Federation
#9 Posted: 2013.08.08 15:03
Posting in support of the other posts above. You guys are fiddling with ratios in a way that is going to do nothing to improve nullsec industry. Do you guys clearly understand the problem and is this the first small change in a huge list of changes, or are you swinging blind here?
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Brothers of Tangra
#10 Posted: 2013.08.08 15:08
Aryth wrote:
Posting in support of the other posts above. You guys are fiddling with ratios in a way that is going to do nothing to improve nullsec industry. Do you guys clearly understand the problem and is this the first small change in a huge list of changes, or are you swinging blind here?



I vote for swinging blind
#11 Posted: 2013.08.08 15:47
So ok I like this cause it benefits me but this doesnt solve the problem that odessey made for mining in null. As it stands a cyno ship can warp to an ore site from gate witg no probes. And anyone that flys a barge will tell you they go slow. Make the ore sites scan down items that require probes. Then you will see alot more mining in null.
Pasta Syndicate
#12 Posted: 2013.08.08 17:01
not a miner but i seriously hope ccp is looking to make null industry better than the centralization of highsec industry allows; through buffed mining amounts/bigger roids/etc

listen to the goonie, please, ccp
C C P Alliance
#13 Posted: 2013.08.08 17:43
The primary goal for the swapping of one ore type to another in this pass is to balance out the isk/hr for the three site types a bit. I did choose to up mex by a small amount at the same time, but that was a secondary thing.

Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others. Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.
Goonswarm Federation
#14 Posted: 2013.08.08 17:48
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The primary goal for the swapping of one ore type to another in this pass is to balance out the isk/hr for the three site types a bit. I did choose to up mex by a small amount at the same time, but that was a secondary thing.

Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others. Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.


Thanks for the insight into the thought process. It is going to require pretty huge changes overall. I thought the plan was T2 industry in null, T1 industry in highsec, T3 industry in WHs. Has that vision changed at all?
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Goonswarm Federation
#15 Posted: 2013.08.08 17:52
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others. Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.


No, it's not. Nothing compresses mex. You can import compressed minerals in a broad ratio that is mostly useful for battleship or above building, then make up the deficencies (usually highends) locally or by importing raws. It is cost-prohibitive to import raw mex if you have the rest of your minerals, and nothing compresses it.
Brothers of Tangra
#16 Posted: 2013.08.08 17:55
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The primary goal for the swapping of one ore type to another in this pass is to balance out the isk/hr for the three site types a bit. I did choose to up mex by a small amount at the same time, but that was a secondary thing.

Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others. Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.



The problem is you can't import just mex, at least not economically

Fusion XL is trit/pye/mex

If we have an abundance of trit from mining like banshees trying to get mex, we either have to import JF full of raw mex or import a single JF with fusion XL and just trash 500mil in trit

It isn't about isk/hr nearly as much as imbalance or ratios being skewed.

There is NO place in eve right now where one area isn't dependent on another as there is NOT ENOUGH MEX anywhere, that is why trit and pyrite have gone down and mex is about the same or a bit higher in price. It is the bottle neck.

High sec is certainly dependent on nullsec for mega/morphite, and nocx/Iso to a lesser extent.
Goonswarm Federation
#17 Posted: 2013.08.08 18:24
Also just to clear up a mistake people often make trying to compress mex: all the mods you can try to use don't actually compress the mex. They just give you some free low-ends: you're not getting any more mex than you'd get jumping in raws.
Caldari State
#18 Posted: 2013.08.08 19:46
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The primary goal for the swapping of one ore type to another in this pass is to balance out the isk/hr for the three site types a bit. I did choose to up mex by a small amount at the same time, but that was a secondary thing.

Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others. Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.


Dislike

The true isk/hour for mining in nullsec is converting the minerals to stuff and selling them. While the theoretical isk and hour is nice (can be upwards of 50m an hour), its really not.
1. the people who care about isk/hour sell the mins to people or corp mates who manufature in nullsec
2. A good chunk of the isk in mercoxit which is t2 only, fair enough. but to make T2 ships you need to make T1 ships. you can import T1 ships but the larger the size the less you can move, and we end up like now which is:
3. a HUGE amount of surplus minerals only becuase we do not have mexallon. this actually lowers the isk an hour because we cant export them becuase the lack of minerals to make the stuff or take a huge hit
#19 Posted: 2013.08.08 20:19
Ccp fozzie anything on making grav sites something you have to scan down? Just saying that will make null sec mining much more desirable.
Brothers of Tangra
#20 Posted: 2013.08.08 20:30
commander aze wrote:
Ccp fozzie anything on making grav sites something you have to scan down? Just saying that will make null sec mining much more desirable.


You had to scan them for the last 5 years

They just changed it to make them not scannable, much much better IMO

Yes, I mine.

One thing when a neut enters, you know where he is going and it is easier to catch them
4 Pages123Next pageLast page
Forum Jump