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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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C C P Alliance
#1 Posted: 2013.09.10 18:38  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Greetings pilots,


We would like to address your concerns regarding the update to article 8 of our TOS that was published yesterday. Some basic information on how we deal with issues that come up regarding impersonation is therefore appropriate.

All cases are investigated individually on a case by case basis. If there are complications or difficulties in reaching a solution cases are moved to senior game masters, which happens a lot with the impersonation issues that are reported to us. There are no magic catch-all rules and policies to cover every eventuality so they must interpret the rules we have in place and apply them to the issue at hand in order to keep the peace. For all practical purposes there has been no change in how impersonation issues will be handled compared to the last few years. The TOS update reflects the way reported cases of impersonation have been handled by Customer Support for a long time. The rules applied have been buried in our naming policy and EULA but have now been placed in plain view in order to better help players to make decisions on how they interact with one another.

As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.

One concern is that we have pretty much banned all scams in EVE. Clearly, this is not the case.


Thank you and fly safe.
No Holes Barred
#2 Posted: 2013.09.10 18:47
So can you pretend to be a recruitment officer for goons to scam people? That's a lot of text to say pretty much nothing new.
#3 Posted: 2013.09.10 18:51  |  Edited by: Ganque
GM Grimmi wrote:
Greetings pilots,


We would like to address your concerns regarding the update to article 8 of our TOS that was published yesterday. Some basic information on how we deal with issues that come up regarding impersonation is therefore

...stuff...

As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.

One concern is that we have pretty much banned all scams in EVE. Clearly, this is not the case.



So claiming I am a Quafe Ultra delivery guy and for 50m Isk I'll drop a case or two for a cat then keeping all those freshly printed isks is malicious trickery that can be visited upon with a ban? Guy did you even realise this game is Eve you are talking about?
As a player I, by definition, cannot be officially representing any NPC entity no matter my claims so why the need for any such language at all?

Edit: malicious activity employing various trickery is kinda the whole damn point of the game.
Noir. Mercenary Group
#4 Posted: 2013.09.10 18:53
Grimmi, thanks for posting. Just to clarify, because I think this was the crux of a lot of the remaining confusion yesterday:

If I, Ali Aras, member of Valkyries of Night and Of Sound Mind, represent myself as a CFC rental agent (a title I do not hold in a coalition I am not a member of), is this a violation of the TOS as changed and impersonation policies as historically implemented?
Affirmative.
#5 Posted: 2013.09.10 18:55  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
GM Grimmi wrote:
As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.
How can those terms be objectively defined in a universe like Eve Online's?

Ali Aras wrote:
If I, Ali Aras, member of Valkyries of Night and Of Sound Mind, represent myself as a CFC rental agent (a title I do not hold in a coalition I am not a member of), is this a violation of the TOS as changed and impersonation policies as historically implemented?
What's more...
In in-game terms... what is the CFC? I entered it in the People&Places search without success.
(And I entered 'clusterfuck' and the game crashed, seriously -.-)
Goonswarm Federation
#6 Posted: 2013.09.10 18:58  |  Edited by: mynnna
Ali Aras wrote:
Grimmi, thanks for posting. Just to clarify, because I think this was the crux of a lot of the remaining confusion yesterday:

If I, Ali Aras, member of Valkyries of Night and Of Sound Mind, represent myself as a CFC rental agent (a title I do not hold in a coalition I am not a member of), is this a violation of the TOS as changed and impersonation policies as historically implemented?


Confirming that this was in fact at the center of yesterday's confusion/ire. Players feel this sort of thing was allowed in the past, and that if you can convince someone you're a member of a group you clearly are not (such as in Ali's example), you and they both deserve everything coming to you. They're concerned that what is now coming to them is a ban, that you're forbidding sandboxy play in the form of lying, smooth talking and cleverness (as opposed to outright impersonation like naming yourself "CHRlBBA") and you've done little to address that concern.
Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Caldari State
#7 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:08
I think they don't want to answer this question as there is going to be a Riot over it!
#8 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:08
Utterly pointless hand-waving; might as well have not posted anything.

The new wording does not at all reflect past policy with reference to representing yourself as a member of a group. Come back and try again when you've actually addressed the community's concerns.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Goonswarm Federation
#9 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:09
If I say I'm part of the Mordus Angels, and if you fly through my space I will kill you, could a newbie petition his ship loss for thinking he was fighting NPCs?

It's poor wording in your Terms of Service. Please just try again.
Caldari State
#10 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:10
Hey, lets create another thread and lock the old one again and hope it all goes away.


“It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.”
   -Jack Handy

CODE.
#11 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:11
Further question I have, once you cover the above.

If it is decided that pretending to be a member of a group (example stated above, recruitment scam) is considered a ToS breach, what metrics will CCP be using to define exactly what a "group" is.

Confusion happened when, in specific example, we were told that pretending to be a nonspecific "recruitment officer" for the CFC was against ToS if not a member of CFC, but conversely, pretending to be a member of the New Order "Coalition" was allowed (classing the New Order as "not a group" as it were).

Thanks in advance.
The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP).
Minmatar Republic
#12 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:12
GM Grimmi wrote:


As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.



Well THAT certainly clears things up. Roll

#13 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:16
Maaaaowm Ogeko wrote:
GM Grimmi wrote:


As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.



Well THAT certainly clears things up. Roll



Particularly when taken view of in the context of a long con...
Goonswarm Federation
#14 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:16
Maaaaowm Ogeko wrote:
GM Grimmi wrote:
As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.


Well THAT certainly clears things up. Roll


What, intent is easily distinguishable by everyone in eve. Everyone's intent is 'I want your stuff'. Hence, it is always applicable.

I mean, people petition for people just talking funny all the time, right?
Gentlemen's Agreement
#15 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:19
Well that clarified... nothing.
Gallente Federation
#16 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:23
If the wording now reflects what enforcement has always been, I have to say I'm completely confused regarding the legitimacy of recruitment scamming. The post reads like it isn't allowed, as it's clearly isn't "benevolent." But that was only stated in reference for NPC impersonations.

So I can only assume that misrepresentation of membership, ownership or authority is handled under a different set of rules. That being the case, why can't those rules be objectively stated in the EULA, killing community outbursts like these before they start?
#17 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:25
First of all, beautiful PR response! 262 words, 13 sentences, to say nothing new or bring anything useful to the table. I am not a scammer nor have I ever been scammed by such shenanigans, but myself I find the wording extremely vague.

Let's assume the stupidest player in existence with the shittiest overview setup where he only sees distance and ship name. Let's say I name my ship "Centatis Wraith" and warp around. This player sees me on a gate with a Succubus named "Centatis Wraith", locks me up and gets concordokken. He could argue I was impersonating an NPC ship because he was ******* ********.

We're entering lawyer territory now. Are we going to need trademarks for our corp/alliance names now? If someone creates a corp called Goonhunters, could goon fill a complaint saying that the word "Goon" could confuse players into thinking the Goonhunter is a branch of Goonswarm, and as such appear to be representing Goon and thus break the ToS?

Seriously, instead of coming up with bright ideas like this, take your ToS, give it to your lawyer, ask to what extent someone could argue over it. You'll see how badly it is worded.
Goonswarm Federation
#18 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:25
If I PM an NC. member and say "hey dude, its ok, I'm actually a spy for you guys, the gate is clear to go through", and he jumps into our bubblecamp and dies, by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS and can be punished by GM action.

Is this what is intended?
Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
Goonswarm Federation
#19 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:28
If I apply to an NC. corp claiming to be Vince Draken's cyno alt, am accepted, then go on a wild Awoxing spree, then again by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS.

Is this your intention?
Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
Caldari State
#20 Posted: 2013.09.10 19:29
frankly, the whole situation is a disaster. in my personal opinion, impersonation of anyone other than CCP staff (including GMs and ISD) should have always been legal in the first place, especially if it was 'malicious'. people who fall for fake names, supposed alts etc. cannot blame anyone but themselves, just as when they do not count the zeroes in a private contract.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
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