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Balancing: Caldari Hybrid Shield vs. Amarr Laser Armor

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#1 Posted: 2011.11.14 22:28  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Hey CCP, CCP Tallest, and fellow pilots I like to shoot,

TL:DR; This is a simple, like for like comparison which should make it fairly obvious why Amarr battleship fleets are so popular and why some Caldari Ships need looking at.

While this might not be the right forum area for this, it is at the moment, given that right now the Hybrid balancing thread is the biggest in the test server feedback - and this post also discusses the impact of the new T2 Gang Links. My hope is, this feedback is heard, acted on, and that hopefully in the Winter Expansion future expansion both Caldari and Gallente are 'balanced' although this post focuses on Caldari and specifically Caldari Hybrid ships in fleets - it is NOT a request to buff Drakes!

Also, to be clear, my focus here is on Fleet combat, and when I say Fleet combat, I mean 20+ ships, with logistics support and using command ships, with buffer tanks, not active tanks.

For this, I have picked the most popular Amarr ships, Abaddon vs. Rokh - but critically - the support ships needed to make these two ships work well in PvP fleets. All fits are at the bottom. The command ships include relevant mind links, and slave and halo sets without omega due to mind link implant. Where possible they are overloaded to simulate actual tank when under fire. They also use the occasional, and relatively reasonable priced faction modules where possible and realistic.

Command Ships
Damnation
EHP: 565,286 (This is with T1 Gang Links, slave set, no overload possible, no cap for tank required)
Resists: 86.5 / 82.5 / 89.9 / 94.6
Signature: 265m
Speed: 170 m/s
DPS: 80

Vulture
EHP: 234,642 (This is with T1 Gang Links, halo set, overloaded for 2.5 minutes)
Resists: 86.9 / 93.5 / 90.2 / 83.7
Signature: 303m
Speed: 175 m/s
DPS: 121

Results: Both are fitted with Small Cap boosters, to negate cap draining to turn off the Gang Links. The Vulture needs cap to also keep the hardeners on unlike the Damnation.

Clearly, the Damnation has a very significant EHP increase, while the signature is also a third smaller. On top of that, it runs at almost the same speed as Caldari despite all the plate. While the damnation uses faction pieces, these are not unreasonable given that with such a large tank number, ship losses will be rarer. Neither ship does any real DPS, but the Damnation offers the addition of a ship able to Warp Disrupt and Web and there is still the option to fit it with a cyno for precisely this reason also. The addition of the new T2 Gang Links will only increase this tank number, and the overall Amarr advantage in comparison. Even without the implants, the Vulture loses out, remove the Halo set and it's signature rockets, while the Damnation loses 100,000 EHP, still offering twice the tank of the Vulture at a distinctly smaller signature.

Logistics
Guardian
EHP: 91,617 (overloaded hardners)
Resists: 88.8 / 88.2 / 91.6 / 87.4
Signature: 70m
Speed: 567 m/s
Tank being repaired by another Guardian: 4196
Sensor Strength: 37.2 (With ability to overload to 42.7)
Requires +1 CPU implant

Basilisk
EHP: 66,412 (overloaded hardners)
Resists: 82.6 / 91.3 / 87 / 82.4
Signature: 128m
Speed: 575 m/s
Tank being repaired by another Basilisk: 4212
Sensor Strength: 22 (No ability to overload if you want tank instead)
Requires +3% CPU implant

Results: Again, Amarr come out with significantly more EHP, and this is without a slave set installed! And I flew in an alliance that does use slave sets with these fits, pushing the tank well into battleship tank numbers. This is combined with a 40% smaller signature, and almost identical speed - again with plates in. This gives it a smaller signature than a interdictor and the old pre winter destroyers. How did that happen? The faction pieces for this fit are not that expensive, given the loss rate of these amazing tanked logistics.

The Basilisk, despite having the extra large shield transporter, again is only a handful of points ahead of the guardian tanking numbers when receiving shield transfer. This is with the shield recharge tank rate that adds a bit to these numbers. This costs it more CPU, and pushes the ship to need a +3% implant. To get this sort of tank number, which I would say it needs, it sacrifices a mid slot ECCM module, while needing a T2 Reactor Module to fit. If you remove the T2 shield transporters and use T1, you can get more flexibility, but at the expense of shield transfer. With that sort of fit, the Guardian then has twice the tanking numbers. Again, Amarr win this one easily.

I have previously posted about the Rokh vs Abaddon here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=312587#post312587

The overall issue here, is that Amarr can really push their tanking advantage well beyond that of any other race. When it comes to buffer tank, they win, and win in a big way. This is partly down to a distinct implant advantage, but the plates themselves give a lot of EHP.

Even with so much plate, Amarr are almost identical speeds to Caldari, who technically - should be lighter with shields despite their races slow speeds normally. Combine the larger signature, lower DPS, difficult fitting issues and Caldari are at a big disadvantage in EvE.

This is why so many fleets are Amarr fleets. Minmitar have speed to give them an edge - what do Caldari have in a toe to toe fight? Amarr get the unstoppable cap drain, Caldari get the random chance ECM that can be negated by ECCM fits to a large extent.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
#2 Posted: 2011.11.14 22:30  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Suggestions:
Increase: base Shield HP on the above Caldari ships, definitive increase on Basilisk to allow it to use ECCM
Rokh, lose a low slot for a mid slot, or just add a mid slot
Rokh, 7.5% shield bonus per level instead of 5%
Vulture, additional mid slot, at cost of low slow, 7.5% resist bonus per level, increase to power grid
Basilisk, increase in power grid
Bit more base speed to help offset larger signature

Over to you CCP, love you guys, but I would really like to fly something other than Amarr and Minmitar for the next few months... or years. Please balance Caldari.

Fits:

[Damnation, 375,000 EHP]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II

Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


[Vulture, 200,000 EHP]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100
10MN MicroWarpdrive II

Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Efficiency
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
200mm Railgun II, Javelin M
200mm Railgun II, Javelin M
200mm Railgun II, Javelin M
200mm Railgun II, Javelin M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II


[Guardian, Best Guardian]
Damage Control II
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Corelum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I


[Basilisk, Normal Tank no ECCM]
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Invulnerability Field II

Large Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
#3 Posted: 2011.11.15 10:59  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Giving this a brief bump, sorry, when I posted it, it was quickly knocked out the way by 'The stars are awesome' and 'WTF did you do the naga' threads ;-)

While I agree with everything said there (indeed it worries me that the Naga now does 25% more DPS than the Rokh) and I also agree about the new nebula and stars - I would like to at least fly ships other than Minmitar and Amarr in space.

I would like to get Caldari fleet ships the improvements they need to be relevant for PvP in fleets, I just want to make sure CCP see this one, because the numbers are so obviously distorted in Amarr favour, I can't see how they can't fix these ships and balance them.

In a nutshell; Caldari should be to shields what Amarr is to armor. But they aren't. And they aren't even close.

Feedback welcome.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Caldari State
#4 Posted: 2011.11.15 13:02
I pretty much agree with this entirely.
I dont lke the term "pirate", I prefer 'freelance wealth redistribution specialist'.
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5 Posted: 2011.11.15 15:50
Good post, good ideas +1
Northern Army.
#6 Posted: 2011.11.15 16:04
Seems like a good idea, even if the numbers might need some tweaking for solo/smallgang stuff.
Gank for Profit
#7 Posted: 2011.11.15 16:38

tallest said in the capital feedback tread that there are going to be shield slaves
Quote CCP Fozzie:
... The days of balance and forget are over.

Minmatar Republic
#8 Posted: 2011.11.15 17:39
wow. A lot of thought went into this.
#9 Posted: 2011.11.15 17:47
Moonaura wrote:
Over to you CCP, love you guys, but I would really like to fly something other than Amarr and Minmitar for the next few months... or years. Please balance Caldari.


Same here...

Shield slave, Extra-Large Shield Extender balanced in fitting so it helps Caldari BSs and some other ships (Vulture, Nighthawk, Logis, Sleipnir) to fit a good tank while having room in their meds to do some ewar/ECCM, and lower the CPU fitting of Large Shield Transporters to make Shield RR BSs fleets good would be a nice start.
#10 Posted: 2011.11.16 10:20  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Alsyth wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Over to you CCP, love you guys, but I would really like to fly something other than Amarr and Minmitar for the next few months... or years. Please balance Caldari.


Same here...

Shield slave, Extra-Large Shield Extender balanced in fitting so it helps Caldari BSs and some other ships (Vulture, Nighthawk, Logis, Sleipnir) to fit a good tank while having room in their meds to do some ewar/ECCM, and lower the CPU fitting of Large Shield Transporters to make Shield RR BSs fleets good would be a nice start.


Thanks for the positive feedback. I didn't know about the plans for a Shield Slave set implant. That would go some way to helping, although several of the Caldari fleet ships themselves still need a significant boost, given that the slave implant increases the base % of armor, if shield EHP are roughly 50% smaller, the benefit a shield slave set would give would also be half that of what the armor implant set offers, while still leaving the ships with a significantly larger signature. Given the signature issue, you could argue that Caldari fleet/hybird ships should have more tank than Amarr to balance, not less, although I can't see that ever happening.

While it is awkward to have to trade mid slots to get a decent EHP tank, I could live with that, as we could work out tactics to make up for it. But you can't make up for such underwhelming tanking numbers even with the mid slots filled at present. If we were to run into an identical number of Caldari vs. Amarr, the winner is clear, and while I would love to roll out a fleet of Rokh's and Basilisks, I can't in all honesty, stand behind the numbers and justify both the training time to the alliance, or the eventual ISK investment in Hybrids and Caldari BS that will just die in a horrible laser / artillery death.

If looking at these ships doesn't get into this release, I hope it is at least considered, like Assault Ships are, as an upcoming point release, because I can't honestly see how the current level of these ships can be considered balanced.

EDIT: To confirm I am not asking for the Drake to get a buff lol. It is fine, and represents the perfect Caldari ship: Great EHP tank vs lower DPS and medium range. Just the fleet support ships, and Rokh / Eagle needs looking at too, and possibly more a bit more tank on the Scorpion for shield setups, given that it has to use most of the mid slots for ECM.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Amarr Empire
#11 Posted: 2011.11.16 11:33  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Drop the fury missiles on damnation and its signature drops well below vulture.

I always found it stupid to make caldari with the biggest signature , they already the slowest and heaviest race,also shield tank increases its signature a lot, all caldari ships should have the lowest signature even lower than the matar by 5-10%.

It would make sense in rp too , small signature is a form of ewar vs enemy sensor locks.

Also i think there shouldnt be a new implant set for shield ehp , just remove slaves from capitals or make them into rep bonus.
#12 Posted: 2011.11.16 12:19  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Naomi Knight wrote:
Drop the fury missiles on damnation and its signature drops well below vulture.

I always found it stupid to make caldari with the biggest signature , they already the slowest and heaviest race,also shield tank increases its signature a lot, all caldari ships should have the lowest signature even lower than the matar by 5-10%.

It would make sense in rp too , small signature is a form of ewar vs enemy sensor locks.

Also i think there shouldnt be a new implant set for shield ehp , just remove slaves from capitals or make them into rep bonus.


Ah, good point about the fury missles... without those and faction missile in instead, the Signature drops to 265m. Updated my post above to reflect that. Sheesz, so now Damnation has a third smaller signature, more than twice the EHP and is set to have even more EHP with the new gang links. Ouch.

It is also ironic that T2 missiles like those, affect Caldari ships the most, given most of the ships are missile boats, and whose ships already have large signatures, it would be better if they affected speed or sensor lock on times... or something other than signature.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
#13 Posted: 2011.11.16 13:01
Considering the fact that ehp does not take into consideration damage types and only works from overall resistances, nor does it consider signature or shield recharge rates, neither does it consider incoming reps or local reps; This post could be significantly shortened by just asking for 'ehp' to be redifined so your 'calculations' actually mean something.
Amarr Empire
#14 Posted: 2011.11.16 13:20
Abesch Klaridon wrote:
Considering the fact that ehp does not take into consideration damage types and only works from overall resistances, nor does it consider signature or shield recharge rates, neither does it consider incoming reps or local reps; This post could be significantly shortened by just asking for 'ehp' to be redifined so your 'calculations' actually mean something.

dmg types??? huh why should it take it into account? tell us, you can do it using some predefined dmg types ,but the result would still be similar
yeah signature like every amarr ship has way better signature than caldari and their speed is just a tiny bit smaller
shield recharge in a fleet ?? it can be safely neglected
incoming reps , resists was taken into account , they have smilar resists ,but caldari ones needs activation and cap
only dif is the shield rep at start and armor at the end
local rep ?? still in a fleet.. you wont see it used
Everything speeks amarr is way better at buffer tank and fleet.
#15 Posted: 2011.11.16 13:41  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
I agree but need to throw in:

10% damage bonus is needed for the Rokh

The sign radius penalty for shield extenders needs to be reevaluated, otherwise CCP needs to bring the base speed of caldari ships up.

In all reality people (including myself) have said rails lack DPS... I am moving more into seeing them compare with Arties.

I think if 425's had maybe a little less alpha but longer range than 1400's they would be more viable.. right now it's not even close.

Hybrids still are pretty terrible, tracking is abysmal even with a TC running (and it takes a valuable mid slot).
Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
#16 Posted: 2011.11.16 13:46  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Abesch Klaridon wrote:
Considering the fact that ehp does not take into consideration damage types and only works from overall resistances, nor does it consider signature or shield recharge rates, neither does it consider incoming reps or local reps; This post could be significantly shortened by just asking for 'ehp' to be redifined so your 'calculations' actually mean something.


Granted, the EHP is the 'Average' for all damage types, but the resists are similar, but the resists for Damnation are against the most popular damage types, EM, KN and a massive 94.5 % against explosive, which means it laughs at Minmitar alpha BS fits. Thermal, while being partially relevant for Lasers, they only do a lot of thermal damage with extreme close range crystals, and the same goes for Gallente Hybrids, who have to get in range to really even reach their maximum DPS (Thus the 40+ page threadnaut discussing balancing them) while Rails do the least DPS of all guns, so aren't going to worry a Damnation either.

Here are the EHP numbers for the different resists:

EM: 426118
TH: 333442
KN: 574222
EX: 1074092 - Yeap - it tanks over a million EHP against minmitar, the second most popular damage type in EvE.

With the new T2 gang links, these numbers will be higher still.

Compare that to the vulture, which has to overload while it can (roughly just under 3 minutes if you dare burn the modules out) to get these sort of numbers, and as explained, has to fit a cap booster to negate the most common tactic to nullify gang links - cap drain, which in the vultures case, unlike the damnation, would turn off it's hardeners also, while not having the ability to fit anything else in the midslots, apart from the also essential MWD for fleet manoeuvres. And this is with a fit filled with Power Diagnostics in the low slots that it really doesn't need, to also increase the EHP.

EM: 207274
TH: 421640
KN: 273228
EX: 166082

So in the vultures case, it has vastly reduced EHP, with the one exception being Thermal - the very damage type that is least used in fleets, and least likely to be in range, or as stated, with rails, not do much DPS anyway. Against the two most popular damage types, it has the worst EHP, making it even more exposed, and extremely vulnerable to a Minmitar Alpha fleet, which would easily pop this boat with that sort of number.

If you add up the Damnations total EHP in these resists, minus the Total EHP for the Vulture, the difference is 1339650.

That is what we technically call 'a bit of a difference', and the average of those differences is what you've already seen posted above. Take into account the extra mid slots the damnation has free, the third smaller signature, with the same speed - and I think you can't argue that the Vulture is in anyway close to balanced by comparison.

And this same scenario plays out for almost all Caldari ships - typically around half to a third less EHP, with higher signatures, lower DPS, and no mid slots left to do much with. All they have going for them as a race, is a range bonus.

As Naomi said, it speaks Amarr is way better at buffer tank and fleet, although I would say these numbers scream it ;) not just say it. In the recesses of lowsec and 0.0, Caldari boats (with the single exception of the Drake which is wonderfully cheap and has the best EHP of all Battlecruisers) are awful fleet boats.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
#17 Posted: 2011.11.16 14:35  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I agree but need to throw in:

10% damage bonus is needed for the Rokh

The sign radius penalty for shield extenders needs to be reevaluated, otherwise CCP needs to bring the base speed of caldari ships up.

In all reality people (including myself) have said rails lack DPS... I am moving more into seeing them compare with Arties.

I think if 425's had maybe a little less alpha but longer range than 1400's they would be more viable.. right now it's not even close.

Hybrids still are pretty terrible, tracking is abysmal even with a TC running (and it takes a valuable mid slot).


I agree about the Rokh damage, I wasn't before so much, it should at least be on par with the Naga stats now, because now the Naga out DPS's it, and frankly - out tanks it even with it's reduce tanking numbers, the speed more than makes up for the slow Rokh.

The problem with reducing the sig radius is - Minmitar :) They don't need the buff.

Rails are still a bit underpowered, but personally I would like to take Rokhs out with Blasters and use them close range within 40km, and there are tactics to make those sort of fights happen. But even with Blasters though, they still are doing the same sort of DPS as lasers already do, but with slightly less range, and increased falloff.

And yeah... mid slot.

Which is why I made the suggestions I did. If resists are increased on the Caldari hybrid boats, then it helps make them viable in fleet, although it still doesn't give them enough EHP to survive in a fleet fight potentially, which is why the still need some base Shield HP.

Roughly speaking, the EHP and Resists need to be similar to Amarr. This still doesn't help them out as much given their reduced DPS, but the other factor to consider in balacing Caldari, is the role of the Basilisk in a fleet.

The Basilisk is supposed to be same sort of boat as the Guardian, i.e. a slow boat, with a good tank that able take the punch and roll with it, where as the other two races are more about staying out of harms way.

The Basilisk has an advantage in that shield transfer modules transfer at the start of their cycle, unlike remote armor repair modules, so can get reps on faster. But even with that extra ability and an extra T2 large shield transfer, it can't out repair the guardian when you compare the EHP and reps of the Caldari ships it would be transferring too.

So whatever is done to help Caldari, the Basilisk has to be carefully considered. My feeling is that, even if fleet Caldari ships were given similar resistance potential, and a similar EHP tank to Amarr - that the Basilisk should still have that extra shield transfer, to make up for the larger signature and reduced DPS on Caldari ships. Basilisks don't really help Minmitar fleets, because they are way too slow, and everyone seems to want to be killmail whores and fit a gun in that spare high slot on the Scimitars anyway.

So, the Basilisk still needs to have a tank, that is similar to a guardians, with the ability to have an ECCM module in the mid slot so it isn't so easy to jam as it is with a decent tank installed, and AB or MWD to make it balanced.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
#18 Posted: 2011.11.16 14:38
CCP is, pardon the expression, "********" when it comes to balancing
they put some random numbers and voila, we have a new ship/mod etc.

p.s. keep the trolling for yourself please, 10x
#19 Posted: 2011.11.16 14:41
Boost the ships, not shields.

Drakes are hard enough to kill, we don't need more overtanked ships.

And the more you boost Oneiroses and Basilisks, the more we will see them on the battlefield, which is great, because right now, Scimis are what we all ask for in our fleets.
#20 Posted: 2011.11.16 14:47  |  Edited by: Moonaura
SMT008 wrote:
Boost the ships, not shields.

Drakes are hard enough to kill, we don't need more overtanked ships.

And the more you boost Oneiroses and Basilisks, the more we will see them on the battlefield, which is great, because right now, Scimis are what we all ask for in our fleets.


Agreed, Drakes are fine, perfect really. Indeed, most Caldari boats are okay, and work well with active tanks for the carebears and solo PvP players. It is the Caldari hybrid and fleet boats that need a look at. My fear when posting this was, everyone would just scream Drake, and scream that we leave Caldari alone, when in fact it is just a few key ships that need looking at, not the modules etc.

Increasing certain ships Shield HP will not really affect fits on say - a Rokh, while it might make live a bit longer, but it doesn't affect the raw active tank numbers. I appreciate bumping the resists up will, but even with a resist buff, I can't see a whole legion of Rokh pilots emerging claiming it is suddenly the best active tank ever - it is an absolute nightmare to fit an active tank in that ship at present because it doesn't have the power grid, so can't see how shield resist bonus would hurt it for small stuff.
"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
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