EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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The problem with Eve explained for newbs by a newb...

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Brave Collective
#1 - 2014-06-10 09:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: RebelArch Geten
I love Eve, my friends do not, and yet I can't defend the game. They are right about every reason they stopped playing. My game group of 6 joined last month. I am the last one playing. Though I am playing more for the genre than the mechanics.

Eve's problem is that you don't get what you pay for. You get the game experience someone else paid for.

This is not a sand box game where you find your fun and play your way. You PvP. No matter what you PvP, b/c the PvPers are looking for you to play with. If you stay in Hi Sec to trade, mine, or explore, you still PvP b/c there are no instances, and you can still be the target of a suicide PvPer.

This isn't a problem for risk or loss in game, this a disruption of someone's real life time. If you're a career professional there is no jumping on for that quick leisure time to do that one thing you really like doing. You may spend an hour just finding that thing, another hour avoiding other players, still get whacked and start all over again. There is no jumping on before you have to pick the kids up from practice. This is a game for hard core players.

And they love it. That's why you see so many snide remarks in any post having any complaint about Eve. It's unfortunate so many react such a way. If you check the archives you will see a back log of forum posts by players who couldn't have the fun they paid for. They aren't telling others how to have fun, or trying to take the hardcore's fun away, they are mature people pointing out they paid for fun and aren't getting it. Adults should be able to accommodate others. But in post after post these players where run off by but Eve is supposed be hard.

Yes it is. And that's not what people complain about. They complain about the lack of fun. Or better the disruption of fun. Hard can be fun. No fun is a waste of time.

I do not mind pew pew PvP, and rather enjoy avoiding other ships while exploring, what I do not have fun with, is wasting so much time warping through systems b/c the fun I'm looking for isn't present. So I have had my frustrating moments in Eve. And no this is not a badge of honor. This is pointless and in those moments I am not getting what I paid for. I don't have much leisure time and my time is valuable. I see why more than 50% of players who try Eve leave. I like the space genre so much that it's not scaring me away though. Eve has a monopoly on open world space travel so at the moment they aren't worried about customers getting what they paid for.

I own a business. This is bad business, but should be expected from a company that doesn't have a customer service phone number. Pet Peeve of mine, never trust a business that doesn't have more than automated customer service, but again Eve has the monopoly on best Space game so I ignored it.

Tips to deal with this:
Know that this is not a game for most players, it's a 2nd life sim. They work at it, and don't care if it's not fun. They will have no sympathy for this, and probably not even understand what your complaint is.

Most work at it, b/c you can pay in game money to keep playing, called Plexing and this provides a sense of achievement.

Do not Plex this is a waste of time and you will have more fun if you don't. Your real life time has an opportunity cost. Even if you earn minimum wage you can pay for this hobby off of 3 hours a month after taxes. In game time to earn the isk would take more than this.

You are always PvPing. This game is heavily favored towards PvP. You can PvP without mining, exploring, ratting, mission running, or hauling. You can not do any of those things with out PvPing. And you compete with other players for PVE sites.

The weekends are for PvP. If you have plans on anything else, forget it. There will be too many people on trying to PvP you.

The sooner you become a PvPer the more often you will get what you are paying for.

This game is P2W. You skill up by having time in game and time in game cost money. Most players will deny this b/c it hurts their sense of achievement. SPs don't mean everything, but they mean a whole hell of a lot if the thing you want to do isn't available to you until you pay over $100 in sub fees for the privilege of getting the part of the game you wanted. The P2W isn't really a big deal but shouldn't be hidden the way it is. The real time skill system is only a money ploy.

This game is like playing catch with your son and the NY Giant's defense shows up b/c you picked up a ball.

Try to have fun!
#2 - 2014-06-10 10:24:41 UTC
First of all it's only serious if you take it serious, having to put in effort to survive and do well doesn't necessarily mean the same as taking it serious. it doesn't mean you have to poopsock 23/7 to "succeed". ALL it means is that you have to have some working braincells to survive and succeed.

On top of that; this isn't a normal MMO most people are used to, as such it's not for everyone but almost no one joins eve as a true newbie going "yes, this is exactly what I have been looking for". Mostly because new players can't comprehend the scale, complexity and options we as players have, but also because (generally) people don't know what they want till it bites them in the face.

Simply put; EVE is not for everyone nor should it be and it's fine to try it and not like it. Giving up early because :effort: or because of bad tutoring or ingame experiences is something different, we all had that and we're still here. Get up to speed with how EVE is and what it expects you to do, it's worth it.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.

#3 - 2014-06-10 10:29:01 UTC
My biggest kills have both been solo kills against players with a LOT more skillpoints than me, and a lot more resources than me (one had 50 billion in their wallet back when all my assets were worth maybe 10). So that garbage about being hopelessly behind unless you've played years is just wrong.

Not to mention the fact that the most fun two fights I have ever had were fights I lost. One of them was my second most expensive loss ever. Losing a ship to unplanned PVP is what makes the game so tense - and so fun - when not much is going on.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

#4 - 2014-06-10 10:41:24 UTC
RebelArch Geten wrote:


This game is P2W. You skill up by having time in game and time in game cost money. Most players will deny this b/c it hurts their sense of achievement. SPs don't mean everything, but they mean a whole hell of a lot if the thing you want to do isn't available to you until you pay over $100 in sub fees for the privilege of getting the part of the game you wanted. The P2W isn't really a big deal but shouldn't be hidden the way it is. The real time skill system is only a money ploy.


Not sure what you're trying to say here. It's not pay to win, it's pay to play. True, no skills will train if you don't pay your sub, but you can't play either.
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-06-10 10:41:50 UTC
I dont think you're explaining the problem of EVE for n00bs as a n00b

The "problem" (if it should be called that) is this:

EVE is a multiplayer sandbox. You can do what you want by creating what you want. But so can others. You don't choose to singleplayer or multiplayer. If you like that concept, EVE rules.

My stuff was stolen from me 2 hours after starting to play this game. My first ship lured into an ambush and destroyed within the day. I started with 500K SP and 0 isk and ended with pretty much the same.

I'm sure most people who began playing this game and likes it, was confronted with the "multiplayer part" from the start.

So your statement that people don't get what they pay for is an outright lie.

You may not get what you paid for. Your friends obviously didn't. That's fine. You should not pay for what you don't want. But this unique game where kids are confronted with the fact that not everybody is your friend is EXACTLY what I paid for. Doing what I want despite you trying to stop me.
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-06-10 10:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Starkey
You have some wrong assumptions there, but I see your point.


Quote:
This is not a sand box game where you find your fun and play your way. You PvP. No matter what you PvP, b/c the PvPers are looking for you to play with. If you stay in Hi Sec to trade, mine, or explore, you still PvP b/c there are no instances, and you can still be the target of a suicide PvPer.


Not really... with the number of tools you have available, it's rather easy to avoid engagements. In fact, as much as people hate to deny it, PVP in Eve is mostly consensual for the most part as long as you're aware of game mechanics and the risks associated with them.

Quote:
Know that this is not a game for most players, it's a 2nd life sim. They work at it, and don't care if it's not fun. They will have no sympathy for this, and probably not even understand what your complaint is.


Uhm, no? If people are playing it's because they're having fun. One of the things you missed is that the game world itself isn't inherently fun - it's only a bunch of tools for you to create your own content. Waiting for Eve to become fun is like waiting to be sucessful in real life.

Quote:
Do not Plex this is a waste of time and you will have more fun if you don't. Your real life time has an opportunity cost. Even if you earn minimum wage you can pay for this hobby off of 3 hours a month after taxes. In game time to earn the isk would take more than this.


While this is true for most new players, it's definetly not impossible or difficult to make enough ISK to plex your account confortably, that is, if you do things other than highsec mining and mission running.

Quote:
You are always PvPing. This game is heavily favored towards PvP. You can PvP without mining, exploring, ratting, mission running, or hauling. You can not do any of those things with out PvPing. And you compete with other players for PVE sites.


That's the whole point of the game, and again it's very easy to take precautions and avoid PVP if you want to.

Quote:
This game is P2W. You skill up by having time in game and time in game cost money. Most players will deny this b/c it hurts their sense of achievement. SPs don't mean everything, but they mean a whole hell of a lot if the thing you want to do isn't available to you until you pay over $100 in sub fees for the privilege of getting the part of the game you wanted. The P2W isn't really a big deal but shouldn't be hidden the way it is. The real time skill system is only a money ploy.


SP is only a deterrant during your first 1-2 months while training core skills up. After that point and after proper focused skillplans, SP is only really a matter of choices on what you can do. Also by that logic every single P2P game is pay2win because afteral you can't hit end game witouth paying for gametime.

Yes, the game has a lot of downtime associated with it, and a lot of possible player interaction (not just in PVP). It's part of the design, and I will say it again, it's not difficult to avoid them if you know what you're doing. The only thing you pay for in this game is to have access to the game world and train skills - what you do with that and how you make your money worth is up to you.

I've made a signature. I hope you're enjoying it. www.evetrademaster.com - web based asset manager & profit tracker

The Bastion
#7 - 2014-06-10 10:58:41 UTC
This shouldn't been posted in New Citizens Q&A. All the OP did was state their opinion. It just so happens that I enjoy the game because of the reasons he dislikes the game.

Because of that, it's hard for me to treat the post as "information" even if it is genuine.
#8 - 2014-06-10 11:03:42 UTC
I think you overstate the omnipresence of PVP. In all of the many hours I have logged as a miner, I have been ganked once - and that was in low-sec. Running missions in high-sec, you're pretty safe from PVP as well. Most of the PVP I don't choose to engage in comes in the form of gatecamps.

Also, getting ISK for a PLEX isn't that hard. For me, PI pulls in upwards of 1bil per month and requires at most 30 minutes of work per day plus a weekly haul.
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-06-10 11:09:55 UTC
Cela Kashuken wrote:
This shouldn't been posted in New Citizens Q&A.
Technically, maybe not.

But the 'no trolling' rule of Q&A resulted, so far, in some of the most thoughtful and intelligent posts I've ever read on EVE gameplay.

Though usually a passionate defender of EVE gameplay myself, I can't really find anything better to add to the above excellent replies.


Except maybe: OP, if you do like EVE, stick around and at least try a few more of the infinite gameplay options this great game offers you. Better done together with more experienced players that can show you the way.

If this is your first character, I assure you there is absolutely NO way that you can have an informed opinion of the game in less than a month.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

#10 - 2014-06-10 11:47:14 UTC
I do enjoy a good whiney carebear-rant thread about why EVE is such a horrible game, but I am disappointed that you would post this in NCQA. You asked no questions and provided no answers. All you did was try to convert the new players who dwell here to your point of view.

I will echo my comrades in saying that your complaints about the game are exactly the things that attracted me to it. Some of what you said, however, has no basis in reality, like your claim that EVE is pay-to-win. I was winning EVE from my first week. The great thing about the sandbox is you get to set your own standards for victory.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!

#11 - 2014-06-10 11:50:31 UTC
Also, OP, I suggest that you prepare yourself for PvP. The omens point to a wardec coming your way in the near future. Like sometime around when I get home from work tonight.

Big smile

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!

Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2014-06-10 12:56:22 UTC
RebelArch Geten wrote:


Know that this is not a game for most players, it's a 2nd life sim.

This game is like playing catch with your son and the NY Giant's defense shows up b/c you picked up a ball.



Two good analogies.

I've always thought of it as a career. It makes playing through the not fun parts easier.

Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?

#13 - 2014-06-10 13:15:05 UTC
Any game that tries to please everyone, pleases no one.

yes, EVE isn't for everyone - and that is a good thing.

For those that understand it and like it - they have a game of their own in a pool of sub-par theme-park-clone MMOs.
#14 - 2014-06-10 14:56:36 UTC
RebelArch Geten wrote:
I love Eve, my friends do not, and yet I can't defend the game. They are right about every reason they stopped playing. My game group of 6 joined last month. I am the last one playing. Though I am playing more for the genre than the mechanics.

Eve's problem is that you don't get what you pay for. You get the game experience someone else paid for.

This is not a sand box game where you find your fun and play your way. You PvP. No matter what you PvP, b/c the PvPers are looking for you to play with. If you stay in Hi Sec to trade, mine, or explore, you still PvP b/c there are no instances, and you can still be the target of a suicide PvPer.

This isn't a problem for risk or loss in game, this a disruption of someone's real life time. If you're a career professional there is no jumping on for that quick leisure time to do that one thing you really like doing. You may spend an hour just finding that thing, another hour avoiding other players, still get whacked and start all over again. There is no jumping on before you have to pick the kids up from practice. This is a game for hard core players.

And they love it. That's why you see so many snide remarks in any post having any complaint about Eve. It's unfortunate so many react such a way. If you check the archives you will see a back log of forum posts by players who couldn't have the fun they paid for. They aren't telling others how to have fun, or trying to take the hardcore's fun away, they are mature people pointing out they paid for fun and aren't getting it. Adults should be able to accommodate others. But in post after post these players where run off by but Eve is supposed be hard.

Yes it is. And that's not what people complain about. They complain about the lack of fun. Or better the disruption of fun. Hard can be fun. No fun is a waste of time.

I do not mind pew pew PvP, and rather enjoy avoiding other ships while exploring, what I do not have fun with, is wasting so much time warping through systems b/c the fun I'm looking for isn't present. So I have had my frustrating moments in Eve. And no this is not a badge of honor. This is pointless and in those moments I am not getting what I paid for. I don't have much leisure time and my time is valuable. I see why more than 50% of players who try Eve leave. I like the space genre so much that it's not scaring me away though. Eve has a monopoly on open world space travel so at the moment they aren't worried about customers getting what they paid for.

I own a business. This is bad business, but should be expected from a company that doesn't have a customer service phone number. Pet Peeve of mine, never trust a business that doesn't have more than automated customer service, but again Eve has the monopoly on best Space game so I ignored it.

Tips to deal with this:
Know that this is not a game for most players, it's a 2nd life sim. They work at it, and don't care if it's not fun. They will have no sympathy for this, and probably not even understand what your complaint is.

Most work at it, b/c you can pay in game money to keep playing, called Plexing and this provides a sense of achievement.

Do not Plex this is a waste of time and you will have more fun if you don't. Your real life time has an opportunity cost. Even if you earn minimum wage you can pay for this hobby off of 3 hours a month after taxes. In game time to earn the isk would take more than this.

You are always PvPing. This game is heavily favored towards PvP. You can PvP without mining, exploring, ratting, mission running, or hauling. You can not do any of those things with out PvPing. And you compete with other players for PVE sites.

The weekends are for PvP. If you have plans on anything else, forget it. There will be too many people on trying to PvP you.

The sooner you become a PvPer the more often you will get what you are paying for.

This game is P2W. You skill up by having time in game and time in game cost money. Most players will deny this b/c it hurts their sense of achievement. SPs don't mean everything, but they mean a whole hell of a lot if the thing you want to do isn't available to you until you pay over $100 in sub fees for the privilege of getting the part of the game you wanted. The P2W isn't really a big deal but shouldn't be hidden the way it is. The real time skill system is only a money ploy.

This game is like playing catch with your son and the NY Giant's defense shows up b/c you picked up a ball.

Try to have fun!


I dont like tennis. I dont play tennis. Tennis is not a game for everybody; just as eve is not a game for everybody. Dont play eve if you dont enjoy it. There - I tl/dr it for you. Can I haz ur stuff?

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-06-10 14:59:12 UTC
RebelArch Geten wrote:
Eve's problem is that you don't get what you pay for.


I think you get exactly what you pay for, you get eve. The problems start when people expect eve to be something that it isn't.
#16 - 2014-06-10 15:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
This is like sitting down with a kid who just thumbed through his very first algebra book, and then listening to him say, "Okay, the problem with algebra is that there are a bunch of letters in here, but math is done with numbers."

Many of your observations are at least superficially correct, but your conclusions about the implications of those observations are not.

e.g.:

Quote:
If you stay in Hi Sec to trade, mine, or explore, you still PvP b/c there are no instances, and you can still be the target of a suicide PvPer.


Technically true, but you largely have to go out of your way to set up the precise set of circumstances required to really be a suicide target.

In brief, you pretty much have to be in a densely populated area flying an undertanked ship that can be economically killed.

Get away from high population and you're unlikely to encounter a suicide ganker at all.
Fit a reasonable tank and/or don't load so much value onto one ship that it becomes an attractive target and you'll be ignored for better options.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

#17 - 2014-06-10 15:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Jur Tissant wrote:
I think you overstate the omnipresence of PVP. In all of the many hours I have logged as a miner, I have been ganked once - and that was in low-sec. Running missions in high-sec, you're pretty safe from PVP as well. Most of the PVP I don't choose to engage in comes in the form of gatecamps.

Also, getting ISK for a PLEX isn't that hard. For me, PI pulls in upwards of 1bil per month and requires at most 30 minutes of work per day plus a weekly haul.


The sad truth of eve is that the actual chance of pvp is greatly overstated. In low and null you have to work for your pvp and even then you can go many days without seeing another soul. In empire, with the exception of suicide ganking all pvp is consensual (for the uninitiated war decs are easily avoided). Suicide ganking, while it gets a lot of buzz, is actually a rare event when you consider the entire population of empire. Its easy to avoid suicide gankers; in fact you can diminish the possibility of you being suicide ganked in empire to point where it is largely immaterial. So in reality, while eve is marketed as a hard core open world sand box pvp game, in truth it is a large safe area surrounded by "battle grounds" for consensual pvp. If anybody has reason to complain, its the pvpers who came here looking for a true open world pvp game, as the marketing doesnt match the reality.

As for the op, what exactly did you except when you signed up to play eve? With marketing like "be the villain," you were forewarned.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Templis CALSF
#18 - 2014-06-10 15:06:16 UTC
I normally avoid these threads, but I've gotta say, your notion of "fun" is strange. You keep talking about being provided with fun, but what exactly does that mean to you? Risk-free space travels? Exciting and challenging PVE? For most of us, player interaction is what makes this game fun. Whether that's, yes, blowing people up, or possibly just mining / missioning with friends.

I'll give you the same advice I give almost every poster in this forum. Join an established corporation with other people who enjoy the game. It can only enhance your experience. This game was never meant to be played solo.

This advice brought to you by someone that hasn't bothered to look up your current corporation and suspects that you made it with your group of friends that left the game. That's fine. But as EVE isn't for everyone, find some people to play with that it IS for.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-06-10 15:49:29 UTC
You're not having fun because you're looking for it in places you will not find. I for example hate soccer, so it's no use trying to play because I know I won't find enjoyment in it. Of course, I only know that because I have tried and I think that's the stage you're into.

However, keeping the analogy, eve is not a soccer game, it's a ball. You can play whatever you want with it, from soccer to dodgeball. You still have things in common between those games, like the use of a ball, and in eve's case it is the PvP and harsh consequences to failure. If you dislike it, simply drop the ball and play something else, it's not a shame.

However I strongly disagree with some of your points. Being a solo player with restrict playing time myself I can see that you're probably aiming to high or not being able to cope with the game mechanics. For instance, one of the most memorable times I had in exploration was when I got stuck in a null system trying to jump to low sec that was almost permanently gate camped. The gate didn't have any celestial I could warp to D-scan, so I had to study the kill times in the system and based on that I determined that there was a two hour gap where no kills were happening every day, and that gap would only match my playing time in a determined day of the week.

That might seem like a huge work but I used out of game tools and eventually logged to check how many players were in local. So you see, for two or three days I was playing the game and having fun without even having to log for 20 minutes.

And that's just an example. I don't have kids but I have a job and out of job activities that didn't allow me to play. I've met players that were 50 years old, others with small children, and they were able to have a lot of fun with the game. It's just a matter of getting into the game and seeing how you can have fun in your playing time.

And regarding your P2W theory: you can train a lot of skills to level 4 and even some to 5 in a month time. If you know what to focus on you can match months old players in an specific role. And you don't even have to log in to train, which would be a problem to someone like you and me. How is that pay to win?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
#20 - 2014-06-10 16:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
RebelArch Geten wrote:

..
This is not a sand box game where you find your fun and play your way. You PvP. No matter what you PvP, b/c the PvPers are looking for you to play with. If you stay in Hi Sec to trade, mine, or explore, you still PvP b/c there are no instances, and you can still be the target of a suicide PvPer.
...
(additional heresies against HTFU redacted)
....

The disconnect you are experiencing is common in new players, who assume (wrongly) that EvE is another theme-park MMO, where you should be able to just log in and do your 'dailies' without non-consensual aggression from other players.

Conflict is EvE's core.
Conflict is the special-sauce that makes the EvE Big Mac...special.
Conflict is HOLY.

The question for you now is, do you have a brain you are wiling to put in motion to learn how to deal with EvE's steep learning curve and overcome adversity? Or, will you be yet another nerf-EvE carebear running 'Welfare-mother simulation #37', crying about how the rent is too damned high and 'who is going to feed my babies'?

Granted, CCP needs to do a better job making EvE's realities clearer to new players. Their 'FAQ' sections 5-7 is a step in the right direction, but they need a clear HTFU*Snip* Removed external link. ISD Ezwal.tutorial #1 as mentioned in this post to set expectation levels on day one for new pilots....

*Snip* Removed off topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.
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