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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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#1 - 2014-07-10 17:34:10 UTC
During the mass test today, I noticed that the "Material Efficiency" (-5% material requirements per level) has been changed to "Advanced Industry" (-1% time per level).

I'm sorry, but what? I wouldn't have bothered training this to 5 if it had been like this originally. You've taken a skill that was absolutely necessary for manufacturing and turned it into something that's not worth training.

This skill is going to be refunded, right? Because this isn't an example of "skill's usage changing slightly," this is an example of "skill being removed and a new one added in its place."
#2 - 2014-07-10 17:54:17 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
During the mass test today, I noticed that the "Material Efficiency" (-5% material requirements per level) has been changed to "Advanced Industry" (-1% time per level).

I'm sorry, but what? I wouldn't have bothered training this to 5 if it had been like this originally. You've taken a skill that was absolutely necessary for manufacturing and turned it into something that's not worth training.

This skill is going to be refunded, right? Because this isn't an example of "skill's usage changing slightly," this is an example of "skill being removed and a new one added in its place."


Again someone who doesn't read dev blogs, or only skims them. ME has been changed because the entire underlying mess of waste has been changed. The ME-skill only affected the 10% extra waste and slowly reduced it to zero on level 5.

Now this extra waste doesn't exist anymore so reducing material requirements with a whopping 5% per level would be ridiculously strong.
#3 - 2014-07-10 18:05:33 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:

Again someone who doesn't read dev blogs, or only skims them. ME has been changed because the entire underlying mess of waste has been changed. The ME-skill only affected the 10% extra waste and slowly reduced it to zero on level 5.

Now this extra waste doesn't exist anymore so reducing material requirements with a whopping 5% per level would be ridiculously strong.

I read the devblog.

Nowhere in the devblog did it say we were going to get a skill taken away without a refund.
#4 - 2014-07-10 18:06:36 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:

Again someone who doesn't read dev blogs, or only skims them. ME has been changed because the entire underlying mess of waste has been changed. The ME-skill only affected the 10% extra waste and slowly reduced it to zero on level 5.

Now this extra waste doesn't exist anymore so reducing material requirements with a whopping 5% per level would be ridiculously strong.

I read the devblog.

Nowhere in the devblog did it say we were going to get a skill taken away without a refund.


The skill was changed, not taken away. No refund.
#5 - 2014-07-10 18:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
The skill was so substantially changed that it's more like it was completely taken away and a new one was given in its place. The new skill is completely different than the old one, and significantly less powerful/useful.

The learning skills were removed and refunded because their mechanic was removed from the game. So now that this wastage mechanic is being removed, why isn't the skill related to it being removed from the game?
#6 - 2014-07-10 18:18:32 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
The skill was so substantially changed that it's more like it was completely taken away and a new one was given in its place. The new skill is completely different than the old one, and significantly less powerful/useful.

The learning skills were removed and refunded because their mechanic was removed from the game. So now that this wastage mechanic is being removed, why isn't the skill related to it being removed from the game?


To haphazard a guess, maybe they wanted to create a new skill "advanced industry" anyway, but didn't want to force people to buy and learn the skill.

I mean, what is more sensible: Removing the old skill, refunding it and then having to go buy and learn the new skill yourself, or just changing the old skill?

Refunding ME would be needlessly complicated and insane.
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-07-10 18:43:42 UTC
Posting in this forums is supposed to be for useful feedback, not "QQ, something changed guys!"

You can't fill your cup until you empty all it has

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Brave Collective
#8 - 2014-07-10 20:30:44 UTC
From 25% material reduction to 5% time reduction.

...LOL.

Sure it wasn't removed, but it might as well have been, given the ridiculous bonus it provides.

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#9 - 2014-07-10 20:39:30 UTC
Altrue wrote:
From 25% material reduction to 5% time reduction.

...LOL.

Sure it wasn't removed, but it might as well have been, given the ridiculous bonus it provides.


I looked the Production Efficiency skill up, it worked like this:

Quote:
Your base incompetence waste without this skill is 25%. Each level trained in this skill will reduce the skill based material multiplier of 1.25 by 4%, which effectively translates to a 5% reduction in materials used to manufacture items per skill level. If you intend to embark on a serious career in Industry, it is recommended that you train this skill as early as possible.


In other words, before you needed 25% more material then normal and PE just reduced this waste back to zero at level 5.

Now this stupid extra waste gets removed, so in effect you not only get the new skill trained to the same level as PE, your material requirements are still calculated as if you had Production Efficiency at level 5.

So no, there will be no refund, since people with that skill won't lose anything. You're actually better off then before.
#10 - 2014-07-10 20:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Except that I'm losing an advantage over players that decided not to train the skill. So, for example, I have L5 in Widget Specialization, and CCP decides to rebalance Widgets so that everyone gets the benefit of Widget Specialization 5 without any training, and Widget Specialization 5 no longer affects Widgets at all.

It would be like if CCP decided to remove the mass penalty on armor plates from the game. Great, so now the skill "Armor Layering" is useless, so they remove it and refund it, right? Except, no, CCP decides to change the skill's name to "Shield Layering" and make it reduce the sig bloom penalty on shield extenders.

No refund because the skill didn't get removed, it got changed! Bull.

When a skill is changed so that it doesn't do anything that it did before and instead does something completely different, it's time to give an SP refund.

Adding a new skill for people to train isn't a big deal, they've done it multiple times in the last couple years.
#11 - 2014-07-11 02:29:04 UTC
Good grief.
I'm glad I didn't queue that up to 5.
Shocked
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-07-11 10:49:01 UTC
CCP, since waste is no longer an issue, the skill related to it should be refunded.

-1% TE is in no way a comparable refund... and you know it.
#13 - 2014-07-11 13:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Khiluale Zotakibe
Also, don't forget that the time for production was changed in a few BPOs.
For instance:

Before any skills or assembly line time reductions applied a single run of Archon BPC has the following times (rounded them for simplicity):

Current (TQ): 14 days
Future(SISI): 17 days

Applying the new "wonderful" skill at level 5 (again not considering any other modifiers) it will take it down to 16 days!

So, we get a new time reduction skill that still puts us producing slower than before it existed???

On this note I would like to suggest the removal of weapon upgrades and advanced weapon upgrades as they are a major barrier to properly fitting a ship and all 1 week pilots should be able to fit optimal doctrine fits.

Edit: Electronics and engineering too, because those are such a barrier too!
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-07-11 19:48:12 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
During the mass test today, I noticed that the "Material Efficiency" (-5% material requirements per level) has been changed to "Advanced Industry" (-1% time per level).
Wait, What! ... Hurries off to change skill queue for an alt ...


I had skimmed over this dev change because I assumed they were changing the skill is the same spirit as the Sentry drone change. I didn't realize they were changing a "Must Have Level V" skill to one that barely applies.

Thanks for the heads up. At least I saved 40% of the training time.
#15 - 2014-07-11 20:44:41 UTC
Khiluale Zotakibe wrote:
On this note I would like to suggest the removal of weapon upgrades and advanced weapon upgrades as they are a major barrier to properly fitting a ship and all 1 week pilots should be able to fit optimal doctrine fits.

That's an interesting point.

In Crius they're turning Refining into a profession that requires a significant amount of skill investment in order to be competitive. But, at the same time, they're changing Manufacturing into a profession that requires no skill investment to be competitive.

What? How does that make sense?

I would understand if they made a change similar to Drone Interfacing where they halved the benefit of the skill and rolled the rest of it into the base stats. That would be reasonable.

But the change they're making would be like taking Drone Interfacing and making it affect guns instead...
Aeterna Anima
#16 - 2014-07-12 11:42:00 UTC
I completely agree.

For casual producers, Material Efficiency was still a very useful skill. Advanced Industry is useless for anyone who doesn't produce at full capacity.
The Possum Lodge
#17 - 2014-07-12 20:11:31 UTC
Well....crap.

Yeah, this change makes no sense. Would be nice to see a dev response as to the thinking for it.
#18 - 2014-07-12 22:47:42 UTC
Just for the record:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
The Material Efficiency skill will be repurposed, stay tuned for more information on that in a future blog.
in the Research Devblog.
Thing is, though, I didn't find any devblog announcing the change of ME Skill to TE Skill
Unseen Wolves
#19 - 2014-07-15 00:57:44 UTC
I realy hope this is a first iteration and it will be changed. I'm not saying that there should be a skill that unless trained to 5 You should not do industry like today ME (seriously - this is bad)

What I'm saying is that this skill alone is extremly weak and it should not be placed as replacement for ME and instead presented as new skill and old ME refunded as SP to all players
Brothers Of The Dark Sun
#20 - 2014-07-15 08:06:29 UTC
Unfortunately there is far too much precedence for this sort of change.

Two cases:

Scanning skills - 50% of benefit moved from the advanced skill to the base skill. No change over all but I wouldn't have spent months getting the final level of those skills for half the benefit.

Drones - 50% of Interfacing bonus removed and built in to base stats. No change over all and I would still take that but the principle is that same. The benefit of the reduced skills over the baseline is much reduced.

In this case I took the skill because although it was expensive it was 'essential' and now those skill points are essentially wasted. There's no change over all but I don't do enough manufacturing to be affected about 1% or 2% faster production (for level 4/5) and those skill points are a complete waste for me now.

There are some business models where increased volume means increased profit but that's just the mass producers.
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