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Pre-CSM Summit Nullsec and Sov Thread

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-09-11 19:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hello everyone! With the CSM Summer(ish) summit fast approaching we wanted to post a thread to set the stage for some of our nullsec discussions, since we expect that 0.0 space will feature prominently in this summit’s CCP-CSM discussions.

Why should I care about the CSM and the Summit?
The feedback provided by the CSM is a key part of our development process for EVE. We involve them at many stages of the design and development pipeline, and thanks to their NDA we rely heavily on them to provide us player feedback for concepts that are not ready to present to the wider community yet.
Nullsec and sovereignty design has been an area that the institution of the CSM has been heavily engaged with for years, and they have provided very valuable feedback in the past.

I believe that the Winter 2012 CSM summit is an instructive example for looking at how CSM discussion has helped us focus our nullsec changes over time. This particular summit is one that sticks in my mind as the first one that I was able to participate in as a relatively new CCP game designer (after years of closely following the CSM process from the player perspective). The minutes for this summit can be found here and the nullsec section of the minutes is split into two meetings.

I’ll be the first to admit that we didn't come into that meeting with as much preparation as we should have. The fact that Soundwave, Greyscale, Unifex, Ytterbium and myself entered that meeting without a clear and focused agenda definitely contributed to some of the frustration from CSM members about the scattered nature of the first meeting that clearly comes across in the minutes. This is a mistake that we have been endeavoring to avoid since, and is part of the reason that we are putting so much preparation into the upcoming summit discussions.

That being said, the meeting did eventually generate some very valuable discussion and after that first meeting we decided that the CSM and nullsec deserved a second meeting, on the final day. These two meetings were extremely valuable in setting the agenda for how we approached nullsec design in the two years since. The biggest takeaway from the meetings was that we needed to prioritize the economic side of nullsec gameplay, which at the time represented a lot of the most serious problems with the feature.

Over the next few years we were able to make some great strides in improving resource collection, income sources and industrial activity in nullsec, through the changes made in Odyssey, Rubicon and Crius. Thanks to the agenda set in that Winter summit, nullsec mining and ratting are more popular than they have ever been, alliance income relies more heavily on players being in space, and local industry has begun its renaissance. Obviously there are still many improvements to nullsec economics to be made in the future, but we are standing on a stronger foundation than ever before and we have been turning our main focus to other aspects of gameplay in this space.

What is CCP working on?
Those of you who watched the Fanfest presentations or the recent Alliance Tournament will remember that we have formed a targeted “Nullsec Working Group” back in April of this year to lead the way towards our next major round of changes to zero security space. This group consists of CCP Bettik, CCP Delegate Zero, CCP Greyscale, CCP Masterplan, CCP Rise, CCP Scarpia, CCP Ytterbium and myself.
We have been working on re-evaluating the high level goals for nullsec and sovereignty, surveying and learning from the EVE community’s extensive discussions on the issues, and designing and prototyping potential changes to improve nullsec gameplay.

The working group recently held an extended offsite design and discussion session on September 5th, in which we discussed many of the player-written proposals about Nullsec, clarified our collective position on several issues and made a lot of progress in preparation for the CSM Summit.

For this upcoming CSM summit we are planning to discuss in detail a set of significant, specific and targeted changes that we hope to release in late 2014, as well as the concepts and prototypes that we are developing for more far-reaching changes in 2015. The CSM has already proven an invaluable resource for bringing us feedback and analysis on the current state of nullsec as well as the community’s desires for the future. We are confident that the multiple nullsec sessions that we have scheduled for this summit will be extremely valuable.

Our current plan is to bring the late 2014 designs to the wider community for feedback very soon after the summit, independently of the minutes.

How can I get my feedback to CCP?
The short answer is: keep talking and we’ll keep listening. We are continuing to read everything we can of the community nullsec discussions, whether it takes the form of forum posts in this section, blogs, or ideas passed through the CSM. We highly recommend all players that care about nullsec talk to the CSM representatives (any and all of them) and help them provide the best possible feedback to us. We have asked the CSM to pass along player blogs, posts and other content to us to help ensure that we don’t miss them.

When we're ready to move beyond the CSM-exclusive feedback stage on designs, rest assured that we will communicate them widely and loudly to the community, since we will be looking for all the constructive feedback we can get.

Thanks for reading, and a special thanks to everyone who has voted and contributed to the CSM process. We are in full preparation mode for the CSM summit here in Reykjavik and we are confident that this will be one of the most productive summits yet.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Somethin Awfull Forums
#2 - 2014-09-11 19:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ocih
first?

*jaw hits floor

Grandfather in skill books tied to Sov as well as PI claims.

Map control is a very powerful player tool and is one of the few things you guys don't throttle.
#3 - 2014-09-11 19:37:59 UTC
Sov rebalance 2020
A Band Apart.
#4 - 2014-09-11 19:40:46 UTC
As long as CCP shake up nullsec to make it fun and engaging while allowing the little guys to grab some space for themselves then I'll be happy and for the love of god no more grinding structures!
#5 - 2014-09-11 19:43:22 UTC
In b4 "GRR GOONS".
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2014-09-11 19:58:35 UTC
As long as we can finally get some sort of changes to the actual sov system. Not just changes that kind of maybe sort of have something to do with nullsec.
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2014-09-11 20:06:45 UTC
It's time for a Mike Azariah story post.
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-09-11 20:11:17 UTC
out of my cold dead hands will you take dominion sov away from me
Brave Collective
#9 - 2014-09-11 20:13:12 UTC
Several months ago, I help organize a logi pilot community discussion.

The results were posted publicly and circulated to the CSM. I hope you get a chance to discuss some the ideas briefly.

You can view the presentation here: http://www.slideshare.net/cruftbox/eve-online-logi-love-ideas-survey

Or if you prefer, download it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfscut4a33wcpcx/Logi_Love_Presentation%20-%20v.3.pptx

Thanks for listening.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2014-09-11 20:26:07 UTC
What was the purpose of the OP? There have been so many threads and discussions. I think you need to provide at least some specifics about your goals if you want meaningful feedback beyond what has already been said.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2014-09-11 20:26:52 UTC
I believe in u guyz
#12 - 2014-09-11 20:33:23 UTC
I used to think that the way to get small entities involved in null sec was to make sov more defensible allowing a smaller group to really dig in their heels and stand up against a large group.

I know see that the exact opposite is true... the large HP numbers on sov structures actually provide a minimum barrier to entry while not effecting larger entities at all.

think about it, if you multiply the HP on all sov structures by 30x, the only people who could realistically do sov warfare would be N3, PL, and the CFC; nobody else could bring a relevant amount of damage.

TL;DR
instead of making sov harder to take, make it easier
Pandemic Legion
#13 - 2014-09-11 20:35:14 UTC
Fix POS. Fix Null sec sov system. Fix the corporate management stuff.

This is beyond my scope and control, I just want eve to be stable. But consider firing more management that made bad investments that nearly made CCP go bankrupt.
Soviet-Union
#14 - 2014-09-11 20:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ShadowandLight
Please fix the POS Bumping exploits and ban those who abused the already announced mechanic.
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2014-09-11 20:38:04 UTC
I mean, imagine if you had like 10 more developers working on fixing the POS problem. You know, like 1/10th the teams that you fired.
Altirius Saldiaro
#16 - 2014-09-11 20:39:42 UTC
I hope sov is based on system activity and population. Should have to live in your space to own it.
Shadow Cartel
#17 - 2014-09-11 20:46:16 UTC
Should also add: In b4 CCP Masterplan heads over to Riot games too
ChaosTheory.
#18 - 2014-09-11 20:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Good luck with everything, It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

I only have 2 suggestions, about the discussion not about sov:

#1. Read this article...

Quote:
In his TED Talk on spaghetti sauces, Malcolm Gladwell argues that the food industry made a big mistake asking people about their preferences and conducting focus groups. Gladwell says that “The mind knows not what the tongue wants. […] If I asked all of you, for example, in this room, what you want in a coffee, you know what you’d say? Every one of you would say ‘I want a dark, rich, hearty roast.’ It’s what people always say when you ask them what they want in a coffee. What do you like? Dark, rich, hearty roast! What percentage of you actually like a dark, rich, hearty roast? According to Howard, somewhere between 25 and 27 percent of you. Most of you like milky, weak coffee. But you will never, ever say to someone who asks you what you want — that ‘I want a milky, weak coffee.’”


People always think they know what they want, but many times people are just being idealistic about themselves. What they say they want (and what would be fun) and what players will actually play are 2 different things.

Consider actual human nature during your summit (one thing to consi9der, as in rela life, so in game: people don't fight over tings they can just buy). Look at the past, see what people REALLY do vs what they say or think they will do.

#2. Do not over-react to the current situation! . Understand it, sure, but don't think there is any easy fix. You will hear a lot of "fix this one thing and everything will be fine" talk. Don't believe it lol.

Years ago I played a game called mechwarrior 3. It was cool, but because it was based on a board game's theory of balance, certain weapons (when put in a real time situation) were insanely overpowered such as small lasers and short ranged missiles lol. So the developers of Mech4 prenerfed the unbalanced things in their game, causing a vicious swing to imbalance the other way around (snipers, snipers and more snipers).

This is relevant here because in this thread you are going to get a LOT of thinking based on hatred of Goons, Big alliances, Coalitions, the 'blue donut', Capital and Super Capital ships, power projection and all the (truly or falsely percieved) problems of current null. The risk is that over-reacting to these percieved problems might end up making things even worse, in the way that (Super lame and Grindy) Dominion SOV ended up being an over-reaction to the (super lame actually less grindy) system it replaced.

Again, good luck with the summit.
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-09-11 20:59:08 UTC
HVAC Repairman wrote:
out of my cold dead hands will you take dominion sov away from me


those terms are acceptable

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Northern Coalition.
#20 - 2014-09-11 20:59:34 UTC
Can you please make nullsec more ... pssssssshhhhhhh?
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