Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Carrier Proposal: Carriercide

Author
#1 - 2014-12-19 15:38:23 UTC
Note: This topic is only regarding carriers, not supercarriers.

A long-standing problem with carriers is that, contrary to the general flavor of EvE, they can be good at doing many things at once and as such are often perceived as being overpowered. While addressing certain mechanics such as logistics and drone assignment may help alleviate this perception, at the core of the problem is the ship itself.

All carriers have, in no particular order:

1. Impressive remote repping abilities.
2. Massive drone bays and access to fighters.
3. The ability to transport large quantities of goods, including assembled ships.

And they possess all of these things at all times without having to choose between them.

Carriers need to specialize. What I propose is simple: strip some of the ability off of current carriers and add them to a new set of carriers. Particularly:

1. Existing carriers would become "Support Carriers", geared towards durability and fleet support. Their drone bays would be reduced significantly (125 bandwidth, ~1000M^3 drone bays), they would lose access to fighters and Drone Control Units, and they would lose their "1 additional drone per level" bonus. They would retain their current primary logistics bonuses and the ability to use Triage modules.
2. The secondary bonuses on the Thanatos and Nidhoggur would change from fighter damage and remote rep amount to capital armor repper and capital shield booster amount, respectively. The Nid would also exchange one low slot for a mid slot (5/6/5) to better support it's new local shield tanking bonus.
3. Replace the Drone Interfacing V requirement with something of similar skill points but more appropriate to a logistics platform.

These two changes would retain existing carriers as logistics/support platforms while greatly reducing their combat ability. The Thanatos and Nidhoggur would become more durable with tanking bonuses in line with other racial ships. This would open up some interesting gameplay options for considering which carriers you want to run triage and which you want to spider-tank.

4. Introduce a new set of carriers, Attack Carriers, that have overall stats, slot layouts, and skill requirements similar to current carriers (including the 5/6/5 layout on the Nid), drone bandwidth and drone bays in line with current carriers, retain their ability to fit warfare link modules, but would have no logistics bonuses, significantly smaller ship/fleet hangars, and be unable to use triage modules.
5. Bonuses on these new carriers would be oriented towards fighter combat. Damage, tracking, range, speed, etc. as appropriate. No bonuses to non-fighter drones aside from number controlled and sheer volume. No bonuses to local tanking/durability.
6. As these are capital ships geared towards combat, they would gain the ability to use siege modules. Siege modules would not be changed to grant any bonuses to drone/fighter DPS. As such, there would be no gain in damage output, only local tank.

These new carriers would fulfill the combat role of existing carriers without sharing any of their logistics prowess.

In the end, there would be three "flavors" of capital combat ships:

1. Dreadnoughts, who's single role is to apply massive damage to large targets.
2. Attack Carriers, who's single role is to provide combat support to fleets.
3. Support Carriers, who's dual roles are fleet logistics and fleet resupply.


Thoughts?

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2014-12-19 16:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tappits
Bronson Hughes wrote:

All carriers have, in no particular order:

1. Impressive remote repping abilities.
2. Massive drone bays and access to fighters.
3. The ability to transport large quantities of goods, including assembled ships.

And they possess all of these things at all times without having to choose between them.

Carriers need to specialize. What I propose is simple: strip some of the ability off of current carriers and add them to a new set of carriers. Particularly:


A standard Fitted Triage Archon has the rep power of 6 Standard fit Oneiros, But have the disadvantages of their totally immobile while doing it, Cannot run away, Is as fast as a non-prop mod BS, Is very susceptible to bean counter dropped by all other capital ships and been killed (insta-popped by a single titan/There tank is out DPSed by 2-3 Tank fit Supers or 3-4 DPS fit dreads)
Susceptible to Neut Battleships
Susceptible to any sort of large fleet
I don’t like adding cost as a bad thing or a way to show there balanced but they do cost more than the 6 normal Logis they would be replacing.

They have massive drone bays yes and the access to fighters is not a problem as they can be killed quite easy, it’s the assigning fighters that’s sort of OP but that’s not a problem with the carriers themselves.
It is also to note the fits from Full triage (i.e the impressive repping abilities) to full combat cannot really do fully done on the fly and most people have separate triage and combat carriers. Yes some people do try to do it but there bad and there all ways suboptimal to what you could be fit like.
They don’t really have the ability to transport large quantities of goods and they are even worse now since the travel changes. They can move assembled ships but its no were near as useful as it used to be.
For moving Goods Rorqals and JF’s or just normal Deep space transports/Blockade-runners do the job 500% better more most things.

Since the Travel changes has any one even used large Carrier/Slowcat fleet as the primary combat ship in a fight? I don’t remember seeing any fights were they were used.

I would hold off thinking about any changes to carriers until we find out what they’re doing with :) motherships (supercarriers) Titans Dreads and SOV
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-12-19 16:31:51 UTC
I like it. Fleshed out enough to be usable, not so fleshed out that it's pie-in-the-sky. Gives CCP room to work. Couple things:

"Attack Carrier" sounds a little off, to me. I'd go with "Assault Carriers". It fits a bit better with the idea of combat support, to me.

Siege modules - I'm not sure if you can use drones while in Siege. I know Triage shuts off drones, but does Siege? Any old-school dread pilots know if you were long ago able to use drones while in Siege?

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

#4 - 2014-12-19 16:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Bronson Hughes wrote:

All carriers have, in no particular order:

1. Impressive remote repping abilities.
2. Massive drone bays and access to fighters.
3. The ability to transport large quantities of goods, including assembled ships.

And they possess all of these things at all times without having to choose between them.


Maybe because they are carriers...

I'm not against seeing the addition of more specialised carriers (T2) but I wouldn't want to see the current ones lose significant capabilities.
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2014-12-19 16:53:06 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
I like it. Fleshed out enough to be usable, not so fleshed out that it's pie-in-the-sky. Gives CCP room to work. Couple things:

"Attack Carrier" sounds a little off, to me. I'd go with "Assault Carriers". It fits a bit better with the idea of combat support, to me.

Siege modules - I'm not sure if you can use drones while in Siege. I know Triage shuts off drones, but does Siege? Any old-school dread pilots know if you were long ago able to use drones while in Siege?


There are no ships in game that can use a siege mod and also have a drone bay.
Yes back in the day Drones could be used in siege.
Drones cannot be used while in triage


Maybe the OP would be happy if only super carriers could use Fighters? and just leave everything else as it is now.

Also Let Titans fit Siege mods ok thanks.
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-12-19 17:01:09 UTC
What do you mean by "carriers"? There is only one carrier in game, and three flying jokes accidentally placed in the same database class.

Solve that first, then add more carriers.
#7 - 2014-12-19 17:01:11 UTC
I get the feeling you have never flow a carrier I know you have never flown a nid at the very least if you think adding a mid and dropping a low will let it shield tank and support a shield fleet with shield transfers


-1 for not understanding what you are talking about
#8 - 2014-12-19 17:02:24 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
What do you mean by "carriers"? There is only one carrier in game, and three flying jokes accidentally placed in the same database class.

Solve that first, then add more carriers.


now now In WH we get the choice of a chimera as well. but for the most part exactly what aiyshimin said
#9 - 2014-12-19 22:32:02 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Since the Travel changes has any one even used large Carrier/Slowcat fleet as the primary combat ship in a fight? I don’t remember seeing any fights were they were used.

The travel changes in no way changed the fact that carriers are capable of performing multiple missions exceedingly well without having to choose.

I've brought up the notion of nerfing capital remote reps and then buffing triage modules to compensate in order to force carriers to commit to be useful logistics platforms, but that never got anywhere either. Aside from dealing with the over-utility of carriers, it would bring Triage modules in line with Siege modules.

Tappits wrote:
There are no ships in game that can use a siege mod and also have a drone bay.
Yes back in the day Drones could be used in siege.
Drones cannot be used while in triage

Siege modules do not specifically exclude drone use. Back in the Day, Moroses actually relied heavily on sentry drones to contribute to their damage output while in Siege. That massive drone bonus was one of the main reasons I actually chose the Moros to train for.

Triaged carriers are committed to logistics, and as such shouldn't be able to use drones.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
I get the feeling you have never flow a carrier I know you have never flown a nid at the very least if you think adding a mid and dropping a low will let it shield tank and support a shield fleet with shield transfers


-1 for not understanding what you are talking about

I used to fly shield doctrines in a Thanatos. If I can fly shield doctrines in a Thanny, you can sure as hell fly it them a Niddy, and having one more mid for a cap mod that doesn't kill your local tank or another resist mod will only make it easier.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

#10 - 2014-12-19 23:07:48 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Triaged carriers are committed to logistics, and as such shouldn't be able to use drones.

FYI, when you turn on triage module, your max drones stat drops to zero. Triaging carriers can't use drones.
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-12-19 23:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Limiting carriers to fighters only, much in the same way that super carriers are limited to fighters and fighter bombers, would be a good start to fixing carriers.

Fighters are now very very good at ROFL stomping subcaps. Perhaps too good. But at least they have to travel to their target and a carrier can't carry several hundred spare fighters.
#12 - 2014-12-20 01:41:23 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Triaged carriers are committed to logistics, and as such shouldn't be able to use drones.

FYI, when you turn on triage module, your max drones stat drops to zero. Triaging carriers can't use drones.

I understand that. I was stating this in agreement with the person I was quoting.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

#13 - 2014-12-20 02:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Only thing they need is to have their drone bay listed fighters only. They should not be able to attack anything smaller than a battleship with any reliability. That is what a subcap fleet is for. No more Sentries, no heavies, mediums or lights. Fighters period. Boom Carrier is fixed. It can apply some damage to BS, and maybe some BC, but anything smaller and it can't effectively apply damage.

Time for the swiss army knife to go.

But I do want to say the line "without having to choose". They most certainly do have to choose. Im not sure where you heard that lie but Carriers are not omnipotent they can do singular roles well, but they are not diverse everythings. A repping fit carrier is not going to possess huge amounts of damage application or tank, a tank fit isn't going to project much damage application nor repping application, damage application sacrifices tanking and repping application. You can not run a carrier good at everything and immune to everything. Damage fit and rep fit carriers are very susceptible to Alpha fleets, including very cheap Nados (comparatively) and rep fit/tank fit are susceptible to high DPS fleets such as Megas, or even Talos!

Carriers are very weak in their roles when acting as a swiss army knife. Exception of course being, having access to drones which dominate the subclass ships.
Team Amarrica
#14 - 2014-12-20 05:07:02 UTC
no lets include supers as well. if we **** carriers up like we tierciededed....ed the battlecruisers we will never see them again.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-12-20 05:19:23 UTC
As someone who has killed more titans than Nidhoggurs, let's fix the current state of Excellent->Ok ->Bad ->Terribad mix of racial carriers before we start ******* around with splitting them apart.
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