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Caldari and Minmatar

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Heiian Conglomerate
#1 - 2016-03-25 02:49:53 UTC
I've searching recently for anything pertaining to how the Caldari and the Minmatar would view eachother, but there seems to be a complete lack of interaction between the two races/governments. Besides the whole Insornum deal, anyways.

So is there any reason for the Republic and the State to be at war, ala FW? It doesn't seem so. I mean, I can totally understand why the Amarr and the Gals hate eachother; they're not only huge empires rivaling for territory, but also a vast cultural difference between the two.

But it makes no sense other than gameplay wise for the State and the Republic to be at odds.
Phoenix Naval Systems
#2 - 2016-03-25 20:53:56 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
I've searching recently for anything pertaining to how the Caldari and the Minmatar would view eachother, but there seems to be a complete lack of interaction between the two races/governments. Besides the whole Insornum deal, anyways.

So is there any reason for the Republic and the State to be at war, ala FW? It doesn't seem so. I mean, I can totally understand why the Amarr and the Gals hate eachother; they're not only huge empires rivaling for territory, but also a vast cultural difference between the two.

But it makes no sense other than gameplay wise for the State and the Republic to be at odds.


It makes sense because the Gal and Matari are allies. That's pretty much it. The Caldari are probably slightly aligned with them as State society frowns upon slavery also. If they weren't so ethnocentric they might even sympathise.

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind

#3 - 2016-03-28 10:12:46 UTC
It is actually quite simple really.

Minmatar needs resources to fight Amarr to free their people. Keeping Amarr busy benefits Gallente so Federation assists Minmatar which in turn assists Gallente in their conflict with Caldari.

Caldari benefits to be allied with Amarr (despite disliking whole slave business) because Empire keeps Gallente on toes and Amarr Empire accepts Caldari because they keep Gallente busy while Amarr dealing with Minmatar.

Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2016-04-20 05:09:11 UTC
The Caldari iirc held insorum hostage and then collaborated to get it to them. Its been a while since I read that bit so I could be wrong.

And Heth reached out the the Republic but was turned aside.

As strength goes.

Black Thorne Alliance
#5 - 2016-07-12 22:25:44 UTC
Caldari-Minmitar definitely need a collaborative faction

I suggest the following lore to get it going:
They get together for a corporate union and follow through with a hostile takeover of Ore, thus freeing them from Serpents rule. What better conglomeration of their types can there be than getting big market capitalists together with down and dirty go-getters than with a mining consortium. Then maybe we can finally get some new hybrid ships.

I suggest some of the following mechanics that could be used for these minmatar/caldari ships:


50% increase in Kinetic damage from turrets
Prevention of smart bomb damage to all ally drones

20% increase in the tracking speed of turrents (minmitar bonus per level)
1km increased range for smart bombs (caldari bonus per level)


These bonuses will allow the faction ship a purpose in removing tackle and give some much needed love to turrent based weapons for the pirate faction ships, most notably to hybrids and projectiles which can field the kinetic damage, and can be seen as a valuable tackler for defending mining installations.

Other possible mechanics could include bombs, ECM or involve the new Spectrum Breaker, Stasis Grapplers or Burst Projectors.


Wrecking Machine.
#6 - 2016-07-13 11:22:08 UTC
I have to agree.

From the background while minmatar and caldari do seem to be at odds due to their allegiances, the wars between the two states are rarely mentioned, or even exist on a large scale.
#7 - 2016-07-17 00:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Telegram Sam
A really interesting thing about the design of the root backstory is there seem to be two cultural axes going on. If you've ever been an AD&D dork (and still one at heart like me), they're like the Lawful vs. Chaotic axis and the Good vs. Evil axis. Here's a little diagram.

On one side of an axis are the traditionalists (Amarr organized religion zealots and Minmatar shamanistic tribesmen/clansmen). On the other side are the modern utilitarianists (Gallente progressives and Caldari corporate capitalists, both agnostic/don't care).

But for the other axis (hierarchical/authoritarian vs. liberal/egalitarian), Gallente and Minmatar are together on one side and Amarr and Caldari are together on the other.

Interesting to note 1: The real hatred wars are between the races that share either traditionalist or modern outlooks. They're kind of like two faces of the same coin.

Interesting 2: By this simple diagram, Gallente and Amarr have no shared outlooks on the world at all. They would both consider each others' ideas so idea as to be alien. Nut jobs doing something or other out there. Same for the more minor cultures, Caldari and Minmatar. The cultural or societal norms are so different, it's hard to imagine that a regular Caldari citizen could put himself in the shoes of a regular Minmatar citizen.

Interesting 3: The hatred wars are between groups that know each other. If it were about differences in cultural outlook, Amarr and Gallente should be against each other. The same if it were about competition for strategic cosmo-supremacy. But instead, the factions fight the people they know, based a good deal on pure vendetta. The story of the backstory got it right, I think.


Of course, altough Minmatar and Caldari don't share anything on those two axes, the do have something in common-- the citizens are both at the poor end of the spectrum, junior partners in an alliance with another faction, and aware that people in those groups generally have it easier than they do. Perhaps that 2-axis diagram needs a 3rd axis.

Anyway, what a brilliant milieu the original backstory writers created. Not like a game backstory, but like a complete fiction world setting.
Heiian Conglomerate
#8 - 2016-07-17 07:26:58 UTC
Telegram Sam wrote:
the citizens are both at the poor end of the spectrum, junior partners in an alliance with another faction, and aware that people in those groups generally have it easier than they do


Speak for your own Republic... Also, State culture is steeped in tradition and may be far more liberal than you think...

Anyways, I've always wondered it myself. Heck, I play an ethnic Sebestior who lives and was raised in the State but still has family ties to the Republic (and the Kingdom, but...) I mean, both Caldari and Matari sare similar brands of collectivism and faith in leadership. They understand the pain of forced removal from their homeworld and the struggle to retain their cultural identity. Neither is expansionist like the Gals and Amarr are. Anyways, I could go on, but this thread from a while ago did a good job of explaining to me why they're not aligned. The answer is basically politics. Politics and the Caldari think they're better than everybody and the Matari don't like that. And the Empire is a better market with stronger trade ties (Lai Dai) than anything with the Republic (Ishukone? Kind of?).

I still wouldn't mind a 3-way FW, with Cals and Matari aligned together. I talked about that here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2tb8ft/what_are_minmatarcaldari_relations_currently_like/

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-07-21 04:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Deckel wrote:
Caldari-Minmitar definitely need a collaborative faction

I suggest the following lore to get it going:
They get together for a corporate union and follow through with a hostile takeover of Ore, thus freeing them from Serpents rule. What better conglomeration of their types can there be than getting big market capitalists together with down and dirty go-getters than with a mining consortium. Then maybe we can finally get some new hybrid ships.

I suggest some of the following mechanics that could be used for these minmatar/caldari ships:


50% increase in Kinetic damage from turrets
Prevention of smart bomb damage to all ally drones

20% increase in the tracking speed of turrents (minmitar bonus per level)
1km increased range for smart bombs (caldari bonus per level)


These bonuses will allow the faction ship a purpose in removing tackle and give some much needed love to turrent based weapons for the pirate faction ships, most notably to hybrids and projectiles which can field the kinetic damage, and can be seen as a valuable tackler for defending mining installations.

Other possible mechanics could include bombs, ECM or involve the new Spectrum Breaker, Stasis Grapplers or Burst Projectors.




Eh, I think MInmatar bonus should include Shield Boost % and explosion radius OR web range.
Whereas Caldari bonus revolves around missile damage and velocity OR shield resist bonus.

The idea is that the ships for this faction will either be something like a super tanky Breacher or a Breacher-Vigil Fleet Issue hybrid.

I suggest against kinetic damage for turrets solely because only one projectile ammo does pure kinetic and that being the Titanium Sabot ammo, which is a mid-range ammo with poorer damage but gives bonus to tracking.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Black Thorne Alliance
#10 - 2016-07-21 09:03:38 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Eh, I think MInmatar bonus should include Shield Boost % and explosion radius OR web range.
Whereas Caldari bonus revolves around missile damage and velocity OR shield resist bonus.

The idea is that the ships for this faction will either be something like a super tanky Breacher or a Breacher-Vigil Fleet Issue hybrid.

I suggest against kinetic damage for turrets solely because only one projectile ammo does pure kinetic and that being the Titanium Sabot ammo, which is a mid-range ammo with poorer damage but gives bonus to tracking.



To be honest for ship design, the most obvious fit would probably be for a hybrid Target painter ship, but that doesn't do too much for tackle, which pirate ships usually are fit for and I hate TPs so I don't like that idea. And the reverse being a projectile ECM boat also brings out revulsion as so many decry strong ECM fleets. The new faction however may not be actual pirates so tackle may not actually matter (like SOE).

If the merger were to happen, I think the following criteria in ship design should be followed:

Projectile or Hybrid system rather than missiles.
-Many pirate platforms are already missile based

No Web bonus
-The web bonus is already too standard among Minmitar ships I don't think it needs to be tacked on again just for the sake of it.

Should have a unique role and bonus to a unique or underutilized weapon or support system.
-A smartbomb role could fit very well for a tackle ship.
-Electronic warfare support platform to boost electronic defense or attack ability in others could be another option.
-The ship will not be a pure DPS boat as projectile and hybrid platforms for that already exist.



As for a boost to Kinetic damage I still think it could work, but admit it would require a lot of work to balance it especially if it was still made to accommodate both weapon platforms. I do know that it's the only damage type bonus you could possibly give to projectiles without invalidating every other type of amo since the bonus would not be strong enough to stop using amo that aims for faction weaknesses.
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2016-07-21 09:31:14 UTC
For smartbombs to be a viable primary weapons platform for anything that isn't a battleship they will need to increase the range and the damage of it.

Again, kinetic bonus for projectiles is a bad idea. Remove the kinetic bonus and just go for flat bonus for everything projectile is a better idea. Again, this is due to the fact that there is only one pure kinetic ammo for projectile weapons, and it's not a very good option for most parts unless dealing with something that happens to screw with tracking.

The reason why kinetic works for missiles is because there is a pure kinetic ammo for missiles in both Tech I and Tech II forms.

Explosive doesn't work either since both T1 and T2 explosive ammo for projectile weapons are still not pure explosive, but explosive + kinetic.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Heiian Conglomerate
#12 - 2016-08-01 18:16:26 UTC
Okay, we're doing the much-desired Caltari faction now? Cool, I can get in on this.

First, let's take a look at the rest of the pirate races. I'm ignoring SOE. Deal with it. We've got:
* Serpentis: Amour + hybrids + powerful webs
* Sansha: Shield + lasers + freaky mutant afterburners
* Mordu's: Shield + missiles + loooooong point
* Guristas: Shield + missiles/drones + 2.1 drone family
* Blooders: Armor + lasers + long webs/powerful neuts
* Angels: Genderfluid tank + projectiles + gotta go fast

So each faction has something new and unseen in the ship line-up.

* Serpentis tank+weapons are nothing new (they're questioning their tank's gender, just a bit). However, they've got 90% webs. That's cool. Creativity rating: 3/10
* Sansha have lasers on shield boats, which is neat, even if it's not as neat as you might think it is--it's more a statement on how exclusive the Amarr are with their pew pew. Sansha also have sexually confused ABs who believe they are MWDs. It doesn't matter, we're loving and supportive of that amazing resistance to scrams. Creativity rating: 10/10
* Mordu's bring the super Gallentean trait of very long point range with the super Caldari long-range missiles+shields. They don't actually have anything new, but they have a unique combination there. Creativity rating: 6/10
* Guristas advertise themselves as a shield/drone faction, but the reality is that Rabbit has a hard-on for drones and only put those launchers on there to make Fatal shut up. He also believes strongly in family planning, and he makes sure to remind his drones every night that you can be full big scary combat ships when you grow up because you don't have any annoying siblings I have to feed. That said, those tanky shields and complete lack of utility show that Caldari really are born that way. Creativity rating: 8/10
* Rhiload said it best, the Blooders will suck you dry. They'll also tie you down from far away. For a faction that actually cannot get it off without literally bathing in somebody's blood, their ships are BDSM as you would expect. Amor+lasers is nothing new, and the only reason that webs+neuts hasn't been done yet is because apparently all other ship designers in New Eden honestly do enjoy missionary. Creativity rating: 6/10
* Angels think they are this big scary pirate nation who may or not claim to be the 4th Jove Empire. They actually are a bunch of dorks who all spend all their time LARPing as Sonic the Hedgehog, and only take a break to **** your **** up when anybody sees them. Because they are just that fast. But between their speed, small sig, shield? armor? speed tank, projectiles, and speed, they're basically just the Matari wet dream. Or they would be, except even their warp bubbles are fast. That's unique. Creativity rating: 5/10

Okay, so what do we not have in the ship line-up? Dual tank! However, I don't feel that's appropriate for a Caldari/Matari union. What's the next best thing? Active shield love! We all need more active shield love.

As many have said, this faction's lineup could be seen as the next generation of the Breacher/Vagabond/Maelstrom and their unique shield booster bonuses. I love that idea, so let's run with it. What about on the Caldari side? What could this been seen as related to? Well, let's take a look at what's already been done. Ultimate in tank'n gank? Yep, Guristas. Ultimate in utility? Yep, Blooders. Illegal engine mods? Yep, Sansha. Completely unique weapons+tank? Sansha again. OP tackle? Yeah, everybody but Guristas. Will kite you and your mother to death? Mordu's. Facemelt brawl? Serpentis. EWAR? Uh...

Well, you say, there's already EWAR--Serpentis has webs, Blooders have webs and neuts, Mordu has his points. Yeah, I say, but that's not really EWAR, that's utility--any PVP ship can have that. Real EWAR is stuff like target painters and damps and ECM and tracking/guidance disruptors. Matari EWAR is paints, and paints suck. Caldari EWAR is ECM, and ECM is pure win.

Missiles would be a natural fit for both Caldari and Minmatar, but we don't want to be too similar to Mordu's. So let's be brawly! There we go: short-range battle ECM. That gives us the Navy Griffin and the Rook, which are, coincidentally, two of the best ships ever.

Okay, so, my thinking:

* Relatively low sig. The low-sig shield ship is a rare one.
* Balanced slot layout, in particular, limited mids for ECM. Why?
* We want to have to make choices between more ECM and more tank.
* We want this to be quite different from all other ECM ships
* We don't want it to be oppressive in fleet situations. Not being able to fit a full rack of rainbow jams, not being able to mount a strong buffer, and having no range bonuses should keep that under control.
* Worse than that would be to make it extremely oppressive in the small gang. We'll have to do the GNI thing and gimp jam range. To make it more interesting, let's leave falloff as it is but make it so you're always in it. 100% reduction to range.
* Not a ton of damage. Application is okay, though.
* Reward the short-range. Brawling is cool, scram kiting is cool. Kiting is not. Sniping, with ECM for tank, is a big no no.
* Let's bonus ASBs only. We don't want these guys permatanking while ECMing. That's too much cancer.
* Please please please no RLMLs or RHMLs.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Heiian Conglomerate
#13 - 2016-08-01 18:18:11 UTC
With this in mind, here's some suggestions (numbers are probablyr really bad but please don't kill me):
Minmatar Frigate Bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Ancillary Shield Booster amount
Caldari Frigate Bonuses (per skill level):
15% bonus to Rocket rate of fire, explosion radius, and explosion velocity
Role Bonuses:
100% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
Misc. Bonuses:
-100% penalty to ECM optimal range
-50% bonus to ECM Target Jammer cycle time
2 launchers, 1 turret, 2 highs, 4 mids, 3 lows

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Ancillary Shield Booster amount
Caldari Cruiser Bonuses (per skill level):
15% bonus to Heavy Assult rate of fire, explosion radius, and explosion velocity
Role Bonuses:
125% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
Misc. Bonuses:
-100% penalty to ECM optimal range
-50% bonus to ECM Target Jammer cycle time
3 launcher, 1 turret, 4 highs, 5 mids, 4 lows

Minmatar Battleship Bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Ancillary Shield Booster amount
Caldari Battleship Bonuses (per skill level):
15% bonus to Torpedo rate of fire, explosion radius, and explosion velocity
Role Bonuses:
200% bonus to ECM Target Jammer and Burst Jammer strength
Misc. Bonuses:
-100% penalty to ECM optimal range
-50% bonus to ECM Target Jammer cycle time
4 launchers, 1 turret, 5 highs, 7 mids, 5 lows

Overall Attributes:
Large capacitor pool
Low capacitor regeneration
Exceptionally high CPU
Low/restrictive PG
Low signature radius
Below-average speed
Low mass (should respond well to prop mods)
Above-average agility
Lower shield capacity (shouldn't be at serious risk of overrepping, but very little buffer)
Very low armor HP
Above-average hull HP (your last resort on the reload cycle and your jams aren't landing, should be able to mount a not-unacceptable man tank if you really want to exploit all your mids)

The idea here is that the weak cap will make it succeptable to neuts and not be able to fill the mids with jammers. Against neuts, it should be a ticking clock to try and land enough jams to not be capped out before you kill them. Your large pool will keep you alive for a while, but it's not going back up very fast... Additionally, you'll fit few but strong ECM, as each one costs as much cap as two on any other ship, but the 10s duration of that ECM means that you get more chances to hit as well as allowing the target more chance for counterplay. You'll have to manage your booster, your ECM, and your range to effectively fly this ship.

I thought hard about suggesting projectiles. I really can't decide which is better. They're both capless, and I like the fact that the lack of falloff in the missiles doesn't mean that facemelt and pray for your good ECM is the best way to go. On the other hand, the short-range only restriction is kind of gimmicky, and I like the idea of a projectile ECM boat. I don't think only autocannons should be bonused, though--it'd be all projectiles. I don't know which I prefer--either could be really nice, but I'm slightly worried projectiles might be OP. Perhaps some numbers would need tweaking down for it to work.

In the meantime, you'll have a lower-damage ship that has very good application. Should be fun to solo in, and might form a decent small fleet comp. This ship isn't nice with logi, though.

anyways there's my noobish sperg

I've never even flown a pirate ship wtf am I doing

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2016-08-02 04:41:32 UTC
Neph, what you had just suggested is pure ******* cancer. I love it.

Because a Breacher with that ridiculous speed, tank and damage application isn't bad enough already, let's throw in ECM!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Dragon Knights Inc
#15 - 2016-10-20 16:19:58 UTC
Seems like the faction would mainly deal in support roles. Doesn't sound like a pirate faction as much as as a faction like SOE.
Black Thorne Alliance
#16 - 2016-10-20 18:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Deckel
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Seems like the faction would mainly deal in support roles. Doesn't sound like a pirate faction as much as as a faction like SOE.


I do like the direction of making the collaboration between Caldari and Minmatar being a non-pirate faction as it will be symmetrical to the SOE - Amarr and Gallente being Rivals rather than direct enemies.

As such it would be fine to set their hybrid ship's primary functions to be focused away from primary combat.
SOE ships focus on exploration so which other roles exist that could be filled with a specialty or utilitarian ship?

Support?
Salvaging?
Hauling?
All of the Above with added combat capability? lol

So for this suggestion think on some of the following options.

-Large cargo capacity with limited fleet accessible hangar
-Increased Falloff, Optimal Range, and/or rate of fire of turrets (though perhaps limited turret ports)
-increases in remote tracking, remote Capacitor Transmitter, remote sensor boosting, and/or signal distortion amplifier
-Warfare Links
-Increased Salvaging/tractor Range/Speed
-Increased warp core strength
-Add remote warp core stabilizer, with this faction ship giving it a bonus
-Base some ship bonuses on Minmatar/Caldari hauler skills?
Dragon Knights Inc
#17 - 2016-10-20 21:44:06 UTC
Deckel wrote:
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Seems like the faction would mainly deal in support roles. Doesn't sound like a pirate faction as much as as a faction like SOE.


I do like the direction of making the collaboration between Caldari and Minmatar being a non-pirate faction as it will be symmetrical to the SOE - Amarr and Gallente being Rivals rather than direct enemies.

As such it would be fine to set their hybrid ship's primary functions to be focused away from primary combat.
SOE ships focus on exploration so which other roles exist that could be filled with a specialty or utilitarian ship?

Support?
Salvaging?
Hauling?
All of the Above with added combat capability? lol

So for this suggestion think on some of the following options.

-Large cargo capacity with limited fleet accessible hangar
-Increased Falloff, Optimal Range, and/or rate of fire of turrets (though perhaps limited turret ports)
-increases in remote tracking, remote Capacitor Transmitter, remote sensor boosting, and/or signal distortion amplifier
-Warfare Links
-Increased Salvaging/tractor Range/Speed
-Increased warp core strength
-Add remote warp core stabilizer, with this faction ship giving it a bonus
-Base some ship bonuses on Minmatar/Caldari hauler skills?


I love the idea of having a a scavenger ship that has a bonus to salvagers and salvager drones, it would fit Thukkers well as they are partially described as scavengers in addition to the caravans. However it would be best done as a role bonus and the main issue that would need to be addressed is the racial bonus the ships would get. I like the idea of ECM and sheild boosters but salvagers wouldn't feel right on that kinda ship.
O.U.Z.O. Alliance
#18 - 2016-10-21 08:32:21 UTC
I dont know enough from a lore perspective to contribute stats and possible combinations, but if it were to be a pirate combat faction, best place to start for me is "who is their natural enemy?" then work backwards. there are so many faction now that there are few combinations left.

2 cents: TP + smart bomb : must be used in groups of 2 or more. Think of it as a cap chain a target painter on your ship increases the damage of your smart bomb.
Heiian Conglomerate
#19 - 2016-10-25 15:56:08 UTC
Abra Ka Dabra wrote:
I dont know enough from a lore perspective to contribute stats and possible combinations, but if it were to be a pirate combat faction, best place to start for me is "who is their natural enemy?" then work backwards. there are so many faction now that there are few combinations left.

2 cents: TP + smart bomb : must be used in groups of 2 or more. Think of it as a cap chain a target painter on your ship increases the damage of your smart bomb.


It actually doesn't. SB's don't care about sig.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Eve Radio Alliance
#20 - 2016-10-27 23:59:55 UTC
It would be interesting to see the minmatar go Anarchist or communist. The caldari mote solid facist or libertarian. The Amarr seem to be solid theocratic and the Gallente democratic
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