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[September] Mining Barge and Exhumer tweaks

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#21 - 2016-08-22 22:23:18 UTC
I want to comment. But this is it.
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
Morn Hylund wrote:


No wonder Eve subscriptions are dropping - and people are jumping ship for more entertaining games like Star Citizen, No Man's Sky, Elite Dangerous etc.



I wouldn't put Star Citizen in the same league as EVE. Also, NMS is 'a tad less' than what the developers promised. And when I say 'a tad less' I mean: it sucks balls. Big ones.

However, I do understand and agree with your concern and these changes are rather baffling.

Any change should reflect a necessary change for the improvement of the dynamic in the system and I don't see how removing one mining pylon on a Hulk is going to make it a better activity.

The last pass was uncomfortable at first but then I saw the sense behind it and those changes were actually quite good. It made the barges something you wanted to have instead of having ship like the Procurer that was essentially worthless.

Now we get a different set of changes, the use of which does not make a lot of sense to me.

CCP Fozzie, friend, why is this happening?

Why did you not do something that would propagate throughout the New Eden demesne in the way minerals were added to the ship-building experience as described, by myself, here: Ore acle

I support innovations, I want to support good innovations.

#22 - 2016-08-22 22:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Echo Mande
I would like more cap on all of them to be honest.

Fittings wise I think that the Skiff and Hulk could also use some more CPU.

While it doesn't 'need' it, I think that giving the Skiff a +1 or +2 warp core stability might be something to look at. It is billed as 'for hostile environments' after all.

Please, pretty please also give the Retriever and Covetor an extra midslot and the grid/CPU to put something useful there. As things stand the only T1 barge I would use or recommend would be the Procurer because it is the only T1 barge that can in fact tank.
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2016-08-22 22:37:14 UTC
You need to add more cap to all the bargs and more cpu to the hulk. But now my plans for a procurer army is coming along nicely.
#24 - 2016-08-22 22:48:57 UTC
I like the new design.
But why make them equal in part of highslots? I liked that they were unique in this.
Is there another reason then just to simplify the design?

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Tactical-Retreat
#25 - 2016-08-22 23:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Interesting tweaks, but the unification of the number of strip miners does have the disadvantage of reducing gameplay variety. Hulk and Covetor pilots really enjoyed the ability to be able to focus longer on three different asteroids, instead of focusing less on two or one asteroid.

Crucially, this change does not adress the main issue, which is that mining gameplay is really, REALLY boring. Sure, this is a slight stats tweak and it would be unreasonable to expect a huge content change, but you should put a mining revamp alongside the hopefully planned PvE revamp.

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Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-08-22 23:22:28 UTC
Echo Mande wrote:

While it doesn't 'need' it, I think that giving the Skiff a +1 or +2 warp core stability might be something to look at. It is billed as 'for hostile environments' after all.


I like this idea. Making it a bit more of a survivalist beast would provide a viable low sec solo mining alternative to Venture ninja-mining (since Prospects are too much of a liability imho), at least to the extent that it would potentially require a bit more than a weekend ganker duo to pin it down, take out the flight of dps drones, and eat through the tank. I also like the idea someone mentioned of a larger mining ship.


Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2016-08-22 23:39:38 UTC
I skimmed it and thought you were adding neutraliser slots to procurers and skiffs, but I contained my frothy rage and read it again
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-08-22 23:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
I'd imagine other stats will be coming soon, but I'm curious to know what the plans are on volumes and mass, etc. How are those changing. It sounds like the hulls will be quite similar, but functional different.

Again, I know the numbers will come out later, but can you give a general statement about how you plan to adjust these.
HYDRA RELOADED
#29 - 2016-08-22 23:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Suitonia
A small nerf to the Covetor and Hulk?

OLD Covetor
3 * 1.25 (20% Duration MBV) = 3.75

NEW Covetor
2 * 1.25 (New Strip Miner Boost) = 2.5
* 1.33 (25% Duration Role Bonus) = 3.325
* 1.11 (10% Duration MBV) = 3.69

A small loss of 0.06 effective miners. I know you can fit a mining upgrade to offset this though with the extra slot.

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Ivy League
#30 - 2016-08-22 23:51:05 UTC
I'd rather see a shift towards faster cycling mining lasers, considerably faster cycling mining lasers.

So instead of buffing yield per pull, why not reduce cycle time (and cap usage) by the equivalent amount instead, so you mine the same yield/second but with more frequent and weaker pulls? It would make the gaming style less passive and annoying when mining multiple smaller asteroids for example.
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2016-08-23 00:04:45 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
A small nerf to the Covetor and Hulk?

OLD Covetor
3 * 1.25 (20% Duration MBV) = 3.75

NEW Covetor
2 * 1.25 (New Strip Miner Boost) = 2.5
* 1.33 (25% Duration Role Bonus) = 3.325
* 1.11 (10% Duration MBV) = 3.69

A small loss of 0.06 effective miners. I know you can fit a mining upgrade to offset this though with the extra slot.

No you can't; you don't have enough CPU ('cos CCP have decided that removing a Strip Miner means less CPU, but adding a Mining Laser Upgrade doesn't mean more CPU).
#32 - 2016-08-23 00:48:41 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
A small nerf to the Covetor and Hulk?

OLD Covetor
3 * 1.25 (20% Duration MBV) = 3.75

NEW Covetor
2 * 1.25 (New Strip Miner Boost) = 2.5
* 1.33 (25% Duration Role Bonus) = 3.325
* 1.11 (10% Duration MBV) = 3.69

A small loss of 0.06 effective miners. I know you can fit a mining upgrade to offset this though with the extra slot.



It's 3.75, too. You get 3.69 because you multiply by 1.33 instead of dividing by 0.75 (you mean the same, but rounding fucks your values). Same for *1.11 instead of /0.9
#33 - 2016-08-23 01:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Avon Salinder
These tweaks are fine, in that they are just in to compensate for the two strip miner modification.

Sometime down the road a bit, some other improvements could be useful for mining ships, some of these have already been mentioned as they're really good ideas that should happen.

* The Venture and Endurance are excellent as is, wouldn't change a thing.
* The Prospect is only useful for mining gas as it has no drones to defence against belt rats. Perhaps give it the same drone bay as the venture so it can mine in ore belts too.
* Make ORE strip miners worth the cost, they're pretty 'meh' at the moment. An extra 3% yield would be nice.
* Consider balancing the slots on barges to 7 each:
Procurer = 2/3/2 (It's already got a massive HP tank, it's a little overkill tbh).
Retriever and Covetor = 2/2/3 (Yes, add a second slot but only a tiny amount of CPU, be nice to have at least a few options here such as a small shield extender + survey scanner)

Exhumers should be better able to handle dangerous space (lowsec and w-space) better than they currently do (skiff is marginally good here). Eve is a pvp game but mining ships are just content for actual combat ships: tether yourself to an asteroid and say "I am content" on the dscan, effectively. What if exhumers in general were given more survivability to encourage their use outside of their "safe" space?

Throwin' this out there:
* Each exhumer loses a midslot but gains +1 warp core strength.
* Mack and Hulk gain +5 PG so they can fit medium extenders.
* Exhumers don't appear on d-scan (this enables the ship to mine without being obvious in-system, even when hostile combat ships are in the area - only when they warp to a site will they find the exhumer). Perhaps restrict this to the Mack and Hulk, since the skiff already gets the drone damage role bonus.

Finally, mining but not barge related. Plenty more work to be done here but attempting to make mining outside of HS more attractive:
* Remove jaspet, Hemorphite and Hedbergite ore sites from HS - why go to lowsec when you can get LS ores in HS?
* Remove the +5% and +10% asteroids from HS belts.
* Put Spodumain into 0.3 and lower space.

Peace out, spacebros
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#34 - 2016-08-23 01:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Kalido Raddi wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
A small nerf to the Covetor and Hulk?

OLD Covetor
3 * 1.25 (20% Duration MBV) = 3.75

NEW Covetor
2 * 1.25 (New Strip Miner Boost) = 2.5
* 1.33 (25% Duration Role Bonus) = 3.325
* 1.11 (10% Duration MBV) = 3.69

A small loss of 0.06 effective miners. I know you can fit a mining upgrade to offset this though with the extra slot.

No you can't; you don't have enough CPU ('cos CCP have decided that removing a Strip Miner means less CPU, but adding a Mining Laser Upgrade doesn't mean more CPU).

You can. Put on a T2 CPU rig (6m) and you can fit a basic barebones (t1) tank. It isn't great but that is the price you pay for 9% more yield. If you want both you are gonna have to bling, same as always.
The Bastard Cartel
#35 - 2016-08-23 01:29:25 UTC
Avon Salinder wrote:

Finally, mining but not barge related. Plenty more work to be done here but attempting to make mining outside of HS more attractive:
* Remove jaspet, Hemorphite and Hedbergite ore sites from HS - why go to lowsec when you can get LS ores in HS?
* Remove the +5% and +10% asteroids from HS belts.
* Put Spodumain into 0.3 and lower space.


Why on earth would miners go to lowsec at all? There is literally nothing in low sec that a mining laser can get me that I cannot get with far less risk in either high sec or null.

All your changes would do is move more mining out to nullsec (which isn't a bad thing, mind you) and the market would stabilize marginally higher to compensate for the shipping costs. Mining in lowsec is not going to happen on a large scale because it's been hunted to death. It's like trying to swim in a group of sharks. Eventually, you will get a chunk taken out of your leg.

I'd actually be curious to see stats on which type of ore is mined most in what space. I'd be willing to bet that most of the "lowsec" ores actually get mined in nullsec because, frankly, it's safer.

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#36 - 2016-08-23 01:34:54 UTC
This update while a slight improvement still has the same issue as the initial one.
All the stats of the barges are decided in the choice of hull, they don't have the PG/CPU to be fitting any interesting choices, you can't fit a prop mod of appropriate size without entirely filling them with fitting modules even.

If you gave them a decent cargo hold as well as the ore hold, & then treated them like a Cruiser or BC, giving them equivalent slots, PG & CPU, then you would actually be able to make fittings matter, and one hull would serve all three archetype requirements based on how players fitted it. (Cargo extenders still need a stacking penalty btw so it's not all or nothing when using them). Strip Miners could be hard-capped in number just like you cap things like AAR & Command Links so they could even have a real number of high slots.
#37 - 2016-08-23 02:03:39 UTC
What is the intended outcome that will come from this change?

#38 - 2016-08-23 02:29:55 UTC
Not the change that mining needs, which is incentivizing group mining to the point that fielding defense fleets becomes worthwhile. Something that makes miners leave their system to go to a specific location in their constellation.

As a ganker I'm happy to see the Hulk and Covetor get a minor buff that might see more of them being used, but this is basically no change.

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#39 - 2016-08-23 02:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Mark O'Helm wrote:
I like the new design.
But why make them equal in part of highslots? I liked that they were unique in this.
Is there another reason then just to simplify the design?

I look on it this way:
First remember this is a MMORPG, where RP stands for role play. As a role player, I look at this statement about the Skiff: "Special loading algorithms allow for a +150% yield", and wonder, why does ORE not use those on the Hulk? That +150% bonus is just weird, a hack to do the tiericide, with a force fit explanation on the RP side.

I much prefer solutions to fixing game play that also flow naturally for the role player. Equalizing the turret count across all the barges does just that.

Also, remember that this change is mainly an artwork change. Its not a barge re-balance, or a mining change. Barges came up on the "revap artwork" schedule, so CCP is doing it.

Yossarian Toralen wrote:
What is the intended outcome that will come from this change?


Nicer looking barges and exhumers.

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#40 - 2016-08-23 02:35:04 UTC
Morn Hylund wrote:
I don't get it.

It looks like you're taking away one of the Mining lasers with the Hulk (so more active switching by a miner to go do what is already an extremely tedious activity in Eve and reducing mining yield by a 1/3rd) - while boosting it by 25% (1/4) in other areas with perhaps more boosting in the low slots? Which comes out to about even except again - anyone mining with a Hulk has to be switching Asteroids more often??

How is this not just make mining even more a boring less lucrative activity (especially with the planned mineral price nerf changes)?


I mean come on ...
First you have Citadels that are absolutely useless to defend unless you happen to have a fleet on your beck and call (so much for POS equivalency, especially for wormhole manufacturing), now you screw over mining with more ludicrous hand waving - and silly do nothing upgrades ...

No wonder Eve subscriptions are dropping - and people are jumping ship for more entertaining games like Star Citizen, No Man's Sky, Elite Dangerous etc.

Wake the F*** Up.



Exactly right regarding the Hulk and highsec asteroids - why in the world do we need even more frequent switching and ore bay emptying? Nullsec, this will be fine, but many of us use Hulks in highsec too and this will not add to the enjoyment, especially multi-boxing.
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