Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
 

Remove the hidden "Limited Engagement Timer" from agressors in Lowsec

Author
#1 - 2016-10-11 08:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ras Blumin
Current mechanics:
- Pirate shoots at Innocent Honorable Solo PvP'er in lowsec.
- If in range of sentry guns, they start shooting at Pirate.
- Pirate warps away.
- Pirate can now freely engage Innocent Honorable Solo PvP'ers ships in lowsec until his suspect flag goes away.

This means that, theoretically, the Pirate can freely engage Innocent Honorable Solo PvP'er in lowsec from downtime to downtime.

This is Bad.

"Getting Agressed" should not have any disadvantage other than Log-Off Timer and potentially losing HP/ship. "Agressing" should not have any advantage other than adding a Log-Off Timer and potentially removing HP/debuffing/killing the target in the immediate engagement.

Alternatively, if this is seen as Good Gameplay, unhide the list of characters that you can agress freely, and same for the target.

Addendum: Make lowsec sentries less lazy
#2 - 2016-10-13 07:25:32 UTC
This is pretty important, so I am bumping for exposure.
#3 - 2016-10-13 09:41:52 UTC
Ras Blumin wrote:
Alternatively, if this is seen as Good Gameplay, unhide the list of characters that you can agress freely, and same for the target.

But anyone who is suspect or criminal can be freely engaged, by anyone.

It's already obvious who can be engaged, because it shows in local and in the overview.

I'm not quite understanding what the issue is. Honorable solo pvper can engage the other guy back at anytime while he is flagged.
#4 - 2016-10-13 11:11:19 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

It's already obvious who can be engaged, because it shows in local and in the overview.

No. The Pirate is not shown that he can engage IHSP without sentry intervention.

Scipio Artelius wrote:
I'm not quite understanding what the issue is. Honorable solo pvper can engage the other guy back at anytime while he is flagged.

Yes, but IHSP is not shown that Pirate can engage him without sentry intervention.

If you find the current mechanics to be right, then surely these things should be shown. I will also restate this: "Agressing" should not confer any advantage other than adding a Log-Off Timer and potentially removing HP/debuffing/killing the target in the immediate engagement.
#5 - 2016-10-13 12:33:32 UTC
You shouldn't get a limited engagement unless you shoot the pirate back. And when the pirate leaves that limited engagement should only last a few minutes. The pirate shouldn't be able to extend that limited engagement timer unless he shoots you again before it expires.

Sentries will not shoot the pirate if he warps off and back however. Not unless he gets a new suspect timer. I think.

That's my understanding anyways. Are you saying hes extending a limited engagement by other means?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

#6 - 2016-10-13 12:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Ras Blumin wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

It's already obvious who can be engaged, because it shows in local and in the overview.

No. The Pirate is not shown that he can engage IHSP without sentry intervention.

Surely you know if you've been shot at and by whom?

It's even in the combat log.

This proposal feels like a solution looking for a problem.
#7 - 2016-10-13 13:18:25 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You shouldn't get a limited engagement unless you shoot the pirate back. And when the pirate leaves that limited engagement should only last a few minutes. The pirate shouldn't be able to extend that limited engagement timer unless he shoots you again before it expires.
He doesn't get the actual Limited Engagement Timer, but effectively it's the same as long as any further agression happens in lowsec. Once a player has gone suspect on a target, he can keep doing suspect level agressions on the same target without sentry intervention until the suspect timer runs out. And, as you probably know, it is not hard to keep a suspect timer going.
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Surely you know if you've been shot at and by whom?

It's even in the combat log.

This proposal feels like a solution looking for a problem.
This is the meat of the problem:

"Agressing" should not confer any advantage other than adding a Log-Off Timer and potentially removing HP/debuffing/killing the target in the immediate engagement.

Please state your opinion on that. A simple right/wrong would suffice.
#8 - 2016-10-13 14:59:00 UTC
So here is the problem with this whole 'problem'.


As stated an honorable pirate engages and honorable other guy. If you're actually an honorable pirate you'll just engage whoever whenever and not worry about timers, sentries and what not. You don't need a list of pilots you can agress under specific circumstances IF you're an honorable pirate - you just do it.

I'm getting the feeling you want to be able to snipe a round at range, warp off and then have a convenient list of folks you have tagged for later use until the next down time. That has pooooooooooooooosie written all over it.


What is your legitimate use of such a list as an honorable pirate?


TL/DR If you want to be a pirate - be a pirate.
#9 - 2016-10-13 15:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ras Blumin
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I'm getting the feeling you want to be able to snipe a round at range, warp off and then have a convenient list of folks you have tagged for later use until the next down time.

No, I want sentries to engage me if my target has not shot back - unlike how the game works now.
#10 - 2016-10-21 17:43:06 UTC
Ras Blumin wrote:
...
No, I want sentries to engage me if my target has not shot back - unlike how the game works now.


Why "the if my target has not shot back" caveat?

Wouldn't it be simpler (and easier to program) that Sentries always engage suspect/criminal flagged people independent of where, how and when the flag was obtained?
#11 - 2016-10-21 18:15:58 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
So here is the problem with this whole 'problem'.


As stated an honorable pirate engages and honorable other guy. If you're actually an honorable pirate you'll just engage whoever whenever and not worry about timers, sentries and what not. You don't need a list of pilots you can agress under specific circumstances IF you're an honorable pirate - you just do it.

I'm getting the feeling you want to be able to snipe a round at range, warp off and then have a convenient list of folks you have tagged for later use until the next down time. That has pooooooooooooooosie written all over it.


What is your legitimate use of such a list as an honorable pirate?


TL/DR If you want to be a pirate - be a pirate.


No, he's saying that what you just described CAN be done now, and he doesn't think it should.

I'm not super up on LS sentry mechanics, but from what the OP said, the following happens:

Alice illegally shoots Bob on a gate. Alice gets a suspect timer and sentry aggro, and warps off.

Bob chills on the gate because he's AFK or something, whatever. Bob doesn't matter, here.

Ten minutes later (or an hour, so long as Alice constantly reupped her suspect timer), Alice warps back and, again, illegally shoots at Bob. Alice does NOT get sentry aggro again, so long as Alice has continuously maintained that suspect flag.

Bob would probably expect the sentries to have his back at this point, but it sounds like they won't, if the OP is accurate.

Provided that all works as described, it does sound a little screwy. vOv

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

#12 - 2016-10-21 20:04:18 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


No, he's saying that what you just described CAN be done now, and he doesn't think it should.

I'm not super up on LS sentry mechanics, but from what the OP said, the following happens:

Alice illegally shoots Bob on a gate. Alice gets a suspect timer and sentry aggro, and warps off.

Bob chills on the gate because he's AFK or something, whatever. Bob doesn't matter, here.

Ten minutes later (or an hour, so long as Alice constantly reupped her suspect timer), Alice warps back and, again, illegally shoots at Bob. Alice does NOT get sentry aggro again, so long as Alice has continuously maintained that suspect flag.

Bob would probably expect the sentries to have his back at this point, but it sounds like they won't, if the OP is accurate.

Provided that all works as described, it does sound a little screwy. vOv

Replace the Bob in the second encounter with Jim. Who was utterly uninvolved in the first encounter.
That's what Op is saying actually happens from reading.

But even if it's Bob it's a problem if it can be dragged out past one encounter to another hours later. If it can be done so that Alice can shoot Jim with no sentries, that's even more a problem.
#13 - 2016-10-21 20:29:26 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ten minutes later (or an hour, so long as Alice constantly reupped her suspect timer), Alice warps back and, again, illegally shoots at Bob. Alice does NOT get sentry aggro again, so long as Alice has continuously maintained that suspect flag.

Bob would probably expect the sentries to have his back at this point, but it sounds like they won't, if the OP is accurate.

It doesn't work that way as far as I'm aware, but I'm going to go test this now to see.

If it works that way, the OP has a point.

My current understanding is the sentries would engage again, after 15 minutes from the original act.
#14 - 2016-10-21 23:09:28 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ten minutes later (or an hour, so long as Alice constantly reupped her suspect timer), Alice warps back and, again, illegally shoots at Bob. Alice does NOT get sentry aggro again, so long as Alice has continuously maintained that suspect flag.

Bob would probably expect the sentries to have his back at this point, but it sounds like they won't, if the OP is accurate.

It doesn't work that way as far as I'm aware, but I'm going to go test this now to see.

If it works that way, the OP has a point.

My current understanding is the sentries would engage again, after 15 minutes from the original act.



sentries should just shoot suspects regardless you should not be able to just warp out and back in your interceptor while something tankey holds the target
#15 - 2016-10-22 02:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ras Blumin
Je'ron wrote:
Ras Blumin wrote:
...
No, I want sentries to engage me if my target has not shot back - unlike how the game works now.


Why "the if my target has not shot back" caveat?

Wouldn't it be simpler (and easier to program) that Sentries always engage suspect/criminal flagged people independent of where, how and when the flag was obtained?

Sure, but that's the old, pre-crimewatch, system. As a former (and possibly future) pirate and lowsec PVP'er, I can say that that system was awful. It was supposed to give victims some time to retaliate or whatever, but that pretty much never happened, and could easily be countered by docking and waiting out the 15 minute timer. More or less locking pirates and wannabe's (such as myself) into systems for 15 minutes is pretty ****** gameplay IMO. Maybe it could be okay with a shorter timer (say, 5 minutes?), but that's a different issue - an imbalance rather than the outright brokenness I want fixed here.

It's also not all lowsec PVP where "punishment" is really necessary, as a lot of lowsec PVP is more or less consensual. In those cases, even the suspect flag is a bit much tbh. If you add sentries to that specific mix, it gets pretty dumb.
#16 - 2016-10-22 02:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ras Blumin
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


No, he's saying that what you just described CAN be done now, and he doesn't think it should.

I'm not super up on LS sentry mechanics, but from what the OP said, the following happens:

Alice illegally shoots Bob on a gate. Alice gets a suspect timer and sentry aggro, and warps off.

Bob chills on the gate because he's AFK or something, whatever. Bob doesn't matter, here.

Ten minutes later (or an hour, so long as Alice constantly reupped her suspect timer), Alice warps back and, again, illegally shoots at Bob. Alice does NOT get sentry aggro again, so long as Alice has continuously maintained that suspect flag.

Bob would probably expect the sentries to have his back at this point, but it sounds like they won't, if the OP is accurate.

Provided that all works as described, it does sound a little screwy. vOv

Replace the Bob in the second encounter with Jim. Who was utterly uninvolved in the first encounter.
That's what Op is saying actually happens from reading.

But even if it's Bob it's a problem if it can be dragged out past one encounter to another hours later. If it can be done so that Alice can shoot Jim with no sentries, that's even more a problem.

Nah, there is no "Jim" in the OP. If Alice shoots at Jim, Jim gets added to Alice's free target list. If there are sentries, they will fire (the first time).

I need a communications person Cry
#17 - 2016-10-25 11:35:49 UTC
I get it now guys. Thanks for the schooling. 10 years and still much to learn. When I'm in LS (which is spotty based on wh connections) I just shoot and don't really pay attention to the mechanics.

It's amusing (ironic) that over the years as CCP has added the safety system and all the various timers to make Eve safer for those of a certain disposition, and there has always been a way to turn the 'safe mechanics' on those who they were placed to protect.

Searching the memory banks, there used to be a similar thing with shooting wrecks in HS to extend timers.


Now that I have been schooled on what is what in this I'm still disappointed by the thread. What I am getting now is that a guy want's to sit on a LS gate and is not happy that the gate guns aren't always on his side every time a baddie shows up.


Keeping a 15 minute timer active all day long is a lot of work and isn't something one can do without actively playing the game. If a guy is putting in the EFFORT to maintain the timer - I'm not really seeing a problem with REWARDing him with 'no gate guns' while engaging targets he's WORKED to keep that way.

If he's keeping a timer - go get him!
#18 - 2016-10-28 08:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ras Blumin
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Now that I have been schooled on what is what in this I'm still disappointed by the thread. What I am getting now is that a guy want's to sit on a LS gate and is not happy that the gate guns aren't always on his side every time a baddie shows up.

Where are you getting this from?

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Keeping a 15 minute timer active all day long is a lot of work and isn't something one can do without actively playing the game. If a guy is putting in the EFFORT to maintain the timer - I'm not really seeing a problem with REWARDing him with 'no gate guns' while engaging targets he's WORKED to keep that way.

If he's keeping a timer - go get him!

After a minor setup, the timer can be kept going with 4 actions per 14 minutes (0.29 APM) and pretty much 100% safety - all anyone can force you to lose is the suspect timer. Even if the mechanics that allow this are changed, it can still be done with 5 actions in about 2 minutes with 2 characters in noob ships.

The adding of targets to the free target list can be done at 100k from a gate/station or even away from sentries at all in a frigate @ ~200k isk after insurance, or you can use a noob ship to completely remove the risk of isk loss.
#19 - 2016-10-28 09:35:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
sentries should just shoot suspects regardless you should not be able to just warp out and back in your interceptor while something tankey holds the target

While this is a an issue I have with the current mechanics, I consider it a seperate issue. Adding a 5 minute sentry timer would fix this.
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