Skill Discussions

 
 

Missiles, Just too Awsome?

Author
Black Thorne Alliance
#1 - 2016-10-29 09:29:02 UTC
No, I'm not necessarily talking nerf, but do you think they scale properly with the other weapon systems especially in terms of range and damage?

You have your close range and far range weapons for each weapon category, and for each size category. Missile, being slightly unique in that they basically always hit when within range, but cannot extend their travel distance beyond their max, whereas the other will still hit a percentage of the time based on how far out they are compared to their falloff.

According to EFT 2.35 here is what I get for unbonused T2 weapon range and damage for each high distance weapon type with T1 Ammo of both extremes(some rounding involved):
(missile range calculated by speed and flight time)

Light Missiles:
Range: 42.2km, Damage: 12.9dps
Small Beam Lasers
Max Damage - Falloff 3.1km, Optimal 8.3km, Damage 28.5dps
Max Range - Optimal 26.4km, Damage 11.9
Small Railguns
Max Damage - Falloff 7.5km, Optimal 9km, Damage 22.5dps
Max Range - Optimal 28.8km, Damage 9.4
Small Artillery
Max Damage - Falloff 10.9km, Optimal 7.5km, Damage 20.8dps
Max Range - Optimal 24km, Damage 8.7

Heavy Missiles:
Range 62.9km, Damage: 24dps
Medium Beam Lasers
Max Damage - Falloff 10km, Optimal 15km, Damage 39.5dps
Max Range - Optimal 48km, Damage 16.5dps
Medium Railguns
Max Damage - Falloff 15km, Optimal 18km, Damage 37.8dps
Max Range - Optimal 57.6km, Damage 15.7
Medium Artillery
Max Damage - Falloff 21.9km, Optimal 15km, Damage 28dps
Max Range - Optimal 48km, Damage 11.7dps

Cruise Missiles:
Range 148.1km, Damage: 45.3dps
Large Beam Lasers:
Max Damage - Falloff 25km, Optimal 33km, Damage 45.5dps
Max Range - Optimal 105.6km, Damage 19dps
Large Railguns
Max Damage - Falloff 30km, Optimal 36km, Damage 40dps
Max Range - Optimal 115.2km, Damage 16.7
Large Artillery
Max Damage - Falloff 43.8km, Optimal 30km, Damage 33.6dps
Max Range - Optimal 96km, Damage 14dps

As you can see, missile range increases 50%(20km) and damage increases almost 100%(11dps) on the progression from small to medium, and range increases around 125%(86km) and damage increases almost 100%(21dps) on the progression from medium to large

In comparison Laser range increases almost 100%(7km optimal,7km falloff) and damage increases 40%(11dps) on the progression from small to medium, and range increases around 120%(18km optimal, 15km falloff) and damage increases 15%(6dps) on the progression from medium to large

Railguns range increases 100%(9km optimal, 7.5km falloff) and damage increases 68%(15dps) for medium, and range increases 100%(18km optimal, 15km falloff) and damage increases 6%(2.2dps) for large

Artillery range increases 100%(7.5km optimal, 11km falloff) and damage increases 35%(7.2dps) for medium, and range increases 100%(15km optimal, 22km falloff) and damage increases 20%(5.6dps) for large


As you can see, missile damage scales much faster than the other weapon types, and while the percentage increase in range may seem to scale together, missiles regularly shooting 4-5 times further than the others at "Max Damage optimal", the fact that its damage no longer scales with a long distance type weapon can seem somewhat unfair, especially in regards to flexibility of damage type, which it also has.
Evictus.
#2 - 2016-10-29 09:53:23 UTC
Missiles have their own limitations - travel time, explosion radius and explosion velocity. They also travel a curve path to intercept a moving ship so the indicated "range" can be deceptive. It is true they will always hit within range but they rarely apply full damage.
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#3 - 2016-10-29 10:01:44 UTC
they have their draw backs too.

1. they can be intercepted via smartbomb or defender missiles (if you use them right)

2. ship speed and size matters, no matter how hard I try a frigate going 2k m/s will take little damage from cruise missiles due to being small and out running the explosion velocity compared to guns even with 1400s I get that frigate in a straight line its gone (I have insta popped interceptors doing 5k m/s towards my tempest), freighters used to be able to speed tank the dread missiles, and many ships straight out run other things like torps

3. they take time to reach your target, if you don't have your target in pvp pointed when they get low on hp, they will simply warp when the salvo that could of finished them off is still flying to them while a gun volley would have killed them.

4. while you list paper dps, a missile will always hit the same minus resist of each layer of the ship you peel away, with guns I will get small hits and I will get to where a volley will do over 20k depending on the factors. EFT and PYFA do not show you dps of when you just scratch your target or beat its face in, nor does it take missiles into account for doing small amounts of damage to a bs going extremely fast

ill add more if I can think of more

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

#4 - 2016-11-03 04:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Velarra
Agondray wrote:
they have their draw backs too.

1. ... or defender missiles (if you use them right)


Would you? Do you? In PVP or PVE? Which specific ships and / or situations have you used these? To a degree of success that they were a genuinely notable, functional tool in your weapons closet?
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2016-11-07 18:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Velarra wrote:
Agondray wrote:
they have their draw backs too.

1. ... or defender missiles (if you use them right)


Would you? Do you? In PVP or PVE? Which specific ships and / or situations have you used these? To a degree of success that they were a genuinely notable, functional tool in your weapons closet?

The upcoming Defender Integrated Counter-Kill System (DICKS), a new destroyer anti-bomb weapon-system, announced at EvE Vegas will supposedly use Defenders.
#6 - 2016-11-08 14:29:03 UTC
OP when looking at missiles you have to look at the whole picture. Your pretty numbers....don't happen unless you fit for them.

Caveat....the only fits that get near these are pve ones generally. 2-3 rigor, 2 mid slots minimum (paint and or mgc...mix to your tastes, I like paint personally).

I have done missile and guns everything. I find missiles to be more of a burden to get them on targets and do real damage. You have HML in that list..they got nerfed long ago. They will not live up to your expectations if you have them based on that paper number you list.



Missiles better on paper looks have a darker reality basically. Their higher numbers are imo to muscle in what can be the kind of meh damage you actually get in real world eve.
Black Thorne Alliance
#7 - 2016-11-09 04:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Deckel
Tau Cabalander wrote:

The upcoming Defender Integrated Counter-Kill System (DICKS), a new destroyer anti-bomb weapon-system, announced at EvE Vegas will supposedly use Defenders.



I think you mean the new system is replacing defender missiles, as in defender missiles are going away, gone, forgotten and never missed. (at least in the form they currently work as)
Flames of Exile
#8 - 2016-11-14 22:52:36 UTC
Turrets care about transversal, sig, and range.

Missiles care about range, sig, and speed.

The balance of missiles is predicated around the fact that flying in a straight line, in any direction, is equally useful as a defense against missiles. So the up side is that actual range to target doesn't matter for you. The down side is that range to target doesn't matter for the guy you're shooting at.

You can, by piloting better, increase your chances to hit a fast moving target by matching their transversal when using a turret. You can't do that when using missiles. When you're using missiles its a pure spreadsheet fight. This has advantages and disadvantages.
#9 - 2016-11-16 16:43:24 UTC
Several things have been noted already. Missiles have good alpha strike (assuming adequate to good application) but poor DPS due to poor rate of fire. Against NPC targets that fit very modest tanks and with modest top speeds they work very well. Often allowing you to pop a target with each salvo.... Outside of npc targets, or against more advanced NPCs the limitations become clearer and the tradeoffs hurt more.

Low DPS against a well set up dual rep tank is less than ideal. Delayed damage application isn't great for rapidly shifting focus targets. The ability to mitigate damage loss from large missiles against small, fast targets is quite limited (all other things held equal), whereas large guns against small fast targets can one shot if the target screws up a maneuver and drops the transversal

That said they do have a their place, long range, the almost guaranteed hit, and the ability to choose damage type are useful, but missiles are not the end all of combat.
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-12-09 18:49:55 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Turrets care about transversal, sig, and range.

Missiles care about range, sig, and speed.

The balance of missiles is predicated around the fact that flying in a straight line, in any direction, is equally useful as a defense against missiles. So the up side is that actual range to target doesn't matter for you. The down side is that range to target doesn't matter for the guy you're shooting at.

You can, by piloting better, increase your chances to hit a fast moving target by matching their transversal when using a turret. You can't do that when using missiles. When you're using missiles its a pure spreadsheet fight. This has advantages and disadvantages.


There is one directional axis that matters when it comes to speed and missiles, however...

flying towards the target = missileboats need less range to hit you.
flying away from the target = missileboats need more range to hit you.

For instance, if someone fires HAMs at you with a range of 30km and you're at 25km but burn away and get outside of 30km before they land, the missiles will never make it to you. But if someone fires HAMs at you with a range of 30km and you're at 35km but burn towards them... you very well may be hit by them when you were out of range the moment they were fired.

Just another interesting wrinkle that instant-hit hybrids, projectiles, and lasers don't have there.
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2016-12-14 03:33:48 UTC
Personally, I would not PvP with missiles but that is just me.
#12 - 2016-12-14 09:52:37 UTC
One more downside of missiles: If you see that you got called primary by a gang/fleet using long range turrets you eat a ton of alpha damage seconds later. If you see that a long range missile gang/fleet called you primary you have a looooong time to just warp off. Missles need far more tackling than turrets IMHO.
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2016-12-20 15:18:05 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Personally, I would not PvP with missiles but that is just me.


So if you are already invested in a bunch of missile skills...would switching to rockets work better for PvP?
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-12-21 00:13:08 UTC
Olorion Endergard wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Personally, I would not PvP with missiles but that is just me.


So if you are already invested in a bunch of missile skills...would switching to rockets work better for PvP?


Sure, lots of frigate/destroyer PVPers use rockets. Faster, more damage... but less range.

Or if you're in a cruiser (Caracals, Cerberuses), rapid light missile launchers... RLMLs are great against smaller targets. Long reload, though.
#15 - 2016-12-21 00:35:24 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Personally, I would not PvP with missiles but that is just me.



And looking at how missile boats sell compared to hybrid / projectile boats, I'm thinking a lot of people agree with you.
#16 - 2017-01-17 06:44:40 UTC
Spend some more time utilizing cruise missiles and torpedoes in PvP, then tell me missiles are still op...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Ushra'Khan
#17 - 2017-01-20 20:36:24 UTC
Well here we go, first post in these forums after 9 years....

I have come to love missiles, but they are FAR from overpowered. Lately I have been using the Talwar destroyer, and running 4 light missile launchers and 3 rocket launchers. I mostly use it for hunting NPC rats, or ratting I guess.

They have some serious drawbacks when it comes to fast moving targets or high ECM targets. Anything faster than you can get in close and shoot faster and more often, doing more sustained damage than you can put out. BUT for quick one hit hammer hits the missiles are MORE than enough.

Hole Control
#18 - 2017-01-22 12:26:08 UTC
LouHodo wrote:
Well here we go, first post in these forums after 9 years....

I have come to love missiles, but they are FAR from overpowered. Lately I have been using the Talwar destroyer, and running 4 light missile launchers and 3 rocket launchers. I mostly use it for hunting NPC rats, or ratting I guess.

They have some serious drawbacks when it comes to fast moving targets or high ECM targets. Anything faster than you can get in close and shoot faster and more often, doing more sustained damage than you can put out. BUT for quick one hit hammer hits the missiles are MORE than enough.



You are splitting your guns, not being able to bring your full damage at all ranges. I'd suggest fitting all guns of the same type, either light missiles or rockets.

Wormholer for life.

Ushra'Khan
#19 - 2017-01-23 17:33:44 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
LouHodo wrote:
Well here we go, first post in these forums after 9 years....

I have come to love missiles, but they are FAR from overpowered. Lately I have been using the Talwar destroyer, and running 4 light missile launchers and 3 rocket launchers. I mostly use it for hunting NPC rats, or ratting I guess.

They have some serious drawbacks when it comes to fast moving targets or high ECM targets. Anything faster than you can get in close and shoot faster and more often, doing more sustained damage than you can put out. BUT for quick one hit hammer hits the missiles are MORE than enough.



You are splitting your guns, not being able to bring your full damage at all ranges. I'd suggest fitting all guns of the same type, either light missiles or rockets.


Yeah I have been switching to that setup of 7 light missile launchers, OR 7 rockets.

It works quite well but is a bit slow with the damage out put on the missiles.

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