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Number of Citadels getting blown in C3 wormhole systems?

Author
#1 - 2016-11-13 04:12:45 UTC
Greetings.

I've been seeing lots of Astrahus kills in C3 wormholes lately (and to some extent C2s as well). Many of those kills are work of 8-10~ capsuleer fleets, and judging by the attackers' killboards, it doesn't looks like evictions, just random kills.

My questions are: are medium Citadels that easy to take down, even in low class WHs? And how can a small/micro corp defend itself/avoid that in the current meta we're in.

Also, I fully understand that once a larger, more organized group decides to evict or simply destroy a micro corp's Citadel (1-5 players), they'll pretty much do it. Period. Thing is, tho, that I've been reading about smaller entities setting up shop in wormholes and people use to say that those small guys in semi-useless holes "usually are not worth the time and effort" required to be destroyed and left alone by possible attackers.

Why do the killboards say otherwise? Are these dead Citadels mostly from careless guys (who won't eve roll the WHs for safety's sake, for example) or is it just that easy to take them down?

Thanks o7


"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

Hole Control
#2 - 2016-11-13 13:02:15 UTC
Hisecstaticlootpinata

** legalize it**

#3 - 2016-11-13 13:54:10 UTC
Feng Yotosashi wrote:
Greetings.

I've been seeing lots of Astrahus kills in C3 wormholes lately (and to some extent C2s as well). Many of those kills are work of 8-10~ capsuleer fleets, and judging by the attackers' killboards, it doesn't looks like evictions, just random kills.

My questions are: are medium Citadels that easy to take down, even in low class WHs? And how can a small/micro corp defend itself/avoid that in the current meta we're in.

Also, I fully understand that once a larger, more organized group decides to evict or simply destroy a micro corp's Citadel (1-5 players), they'll pretty much do it. Period. Thing is, tho, that I've been reading about smaller entities setting up shop in wormholes and people use to say that those small guys in semi-useless holes "usually are not worth the time and effort" required to be destroyed and left alone by possible attackers.

Why do the killboards say otherwise? Are these dead Citadels mostly from careless guys (who won't eve roll the WHs for safety's sake, for example) or is it just that easy to take them down?

Thanks o7




Its due to multiple factors:

1) Loot Pinata Effect

2) Careless small WH groups

3) Larger corps testing out their abilities to destroy citadels

4) Ease of takedown (especially since if no one is in the citadel, they don't fight back).

My name is Jonn Duune, and I wholeheartedly support the message posted above.

Jonn Duune, your WH Candidate for CSM XII!

#4 - 2016-11-13 18:41:49 UTC
Jonn Duune wrote:
4) Ease of takedown (especially since if no one is in the citadel, they don't fight back).


Let's say there's one guy manning the Citadel's guns. Does he have more chances to fend off a small pack of attackers (10~ at most)? Or it won't make any considerable difference in the outcome?

ty

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

WE FORM V0LTA
#5 - 2016-11-14 05:16:29 UTC
Astrahus will definetly need a fleet to support it on the defence. Just a gunner isnt enough if assaulting force has a slightest clue what they are doing.
It is a powerfull forcemultiplier if fitted and used correctly.

#6 - 2016-11-14 10:15:41 UTC
how about anchoring citadels before downtime or before larger updates
Hole Control
#7 - 2016-11-14 11:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Wander Prian
Amak Boma wrote:
how about anchoring citadels before downtime or before larger updates


The timer doesn't run when the server is down.

The citadel is a force multiplier. It's not a OMGWTFPWN-machine. You need a fleet to defend it with. The most dangerous part of setting up a citadel is the first vulnerability-timer after it's onlined as the citadel is unfitted.

Wormholer for life.

#8 - 2016-11-14 13:06:55 UTC
So I guess bottomline about the possibily of solo defending a Citadel is:

- A single player can't deffend his medium Citadel against a small gang (10~ players) once they decide to take it down, even if he is there to man its guns. Thus we see many Astrahuses getting blown in low class wormholes. Citadel works as a force muliplier for a defense fleet.

Another question tho, is about the probability of it getting attacked in low class wormholes.

It looks like the effort it takes to destroy an Astrahus is low enough that small gangs can do it if the defender is not strong/big enough. Is there anything the owner can do to lower the probability of it getting attacked? Commonplace in articles and forum topics on this subject is that "most structures will be left alone if they present too much work to destroy", but that doesn't seem to apply in the current state of things.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks for the responses so far.

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

Rapid Unexpected Disassembly Event
#9 - 2016-11-14 17:57:10 UTC
If all you are facing is the citadel gunner, you can tank that all day with 5-6 ships fitted properly. The main thing stopping citadel attacks is you have to do it 3 days in a row. But when you have a high-sec static, the logistics become much easier to keep up that attack.

3 days is still a lot of effort though. Keep in mind a lot of citadel kills you see are in their initial vulnerability after anchoring and you only have to chew through one layer of defense.

If you're concerned about defending something with a tiny group, you can do much better with a large POS. However, their days are numbered...
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-11-14 18:29:42 UTC
With POS being phased out, and medium citadel remaining as the smallest equivalent (at much higher expense), isnt this a really really bad thing for smaller operators, especially in WH space?

#11 - 2016-11-14 18:48:29 UTC
Norian Rever wrote:
With POS being phased out, and medium citadel remaining as the smallest equivalent (at much higher expense), isnt this a really really bad thing for smaller operators, especially in WH space?


It's an enormous nerf to small group and nomadic living.

I happily lived solo in a lower class WH for a while, with citadels instead of POSes I wouldn't try it again, and would just live out of a DST or Orca
Flames of Exile
#12 - 2016-11-14 23:08:42 UTC
Keep in mind anyone that stumbled across a citadel outside of hisec in its first post-anchoring vuln window, while it is anchoring is much more likely to shoot it up since unlike a POS it has to spend that first window in structure.

I'm still not sure how I feel about that system. On the one hand I like that they have a sort of enhanced vulnerability when first going up, but on the other hand I kinda think the obvious 24 hour onlining and free intel on when its going to be sitting around in structure might make it a little too easy for opportunists.

Not sure what I'd change about it though. Seems like it would be OP if it came online with shields and armor. Maybe just have it come online in that first window with armor and turn off the 0% armor reinforcement for the first window? That'd still make it poppable in the first vuln, but you'd have to shoot it twice as much to take it down. Wouldn't change much for the ones that get thrashed because they were'nt prepared to defend themselves, but it might help make that first most important vuln window a bit easier for the defender before it goes in to normal structure vuln mechanics.
#13 - 2016-11-15 01:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Feng Yotosashi
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:
3 days is still a lot of effort though. Keep in mind a lot of citadel kills you see are in their initial vulnerability after anchoring and you only have to chew through one layer of defense.


PopeUrban wrote:
Keep in mind anyone that stumbled across a citadel outside of hisec in its first post-anchoring vuln window, while it is anchoring is much more likely to shoot it up since unlike a POS it has to spend that first window in structure.


True, there's that. The initial vulnerability window may explain a good portion of those kills – and I don't know how to feel about the anchoring system too. 24h of an exposed anchoring process certainly gives potential attackers a lot of time for preparation.

Nakovi Kitsune wrote:
If all you are facing is the citadel gunner, you can tank that all day with 5-6 ships fitted properly. The main thing stopping citadel attacks is you have to do it 3 days in a row. But when you have a high-sec static, the logistics become much easier to keep up that attack.


Yeah, from all the responses, Citadel's defenses are not much by themselves, more like force multipliers as the other guy said. But also there's the window "size", you can set it to what, 30 minutes 6 days a week (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Astrahuses have 3 weekly hours of vulnerability). I'm not sure how easy it is for a 10-15~ men fleet to take each layer down in 30 minutes.

Norian Rever wrote:
With POS being phased out, and medium citadel remaining as the smallest equivalent (at much higher expense), isnt this a really really bad thing for smaller operators, especially in WH space?


That's precisely what I'm trying to find out. Blink

Again, thanks a lot.

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

#14 - 2016-11-15 08:12:12 UTC
Feng Yotosashi wrote:
24h of an exposed anchoring process certainly gives potential attackers a lot of time for preparation.


Key is: keep your holes shut. Let the timer end on a day where you can at least the five to six hours before the timer ends come online and check for new connections. Close (or crit) all exisiting connections before you set it up.

Feng Yotosashi wrote:
[
I'm not sure how easy it is for a 10-15~ men fleet to take each layer down in 30 minutes.


Really easy. You only need 6000 dps (including resistances) to reach the maximum damage cap. 600 dps is enough to stop the repair timer.

Be online during invul hours. If you get attacked and can't get rid of them, just annoy them: your cita should have neuts and jams.

Next day: get help. Entry to your system and promise of kill mails are a good start to get some WH group in there to help you. And please, have your Intel ready: who, how many, what ships, have the set up a pos/cita in your system.

If you can't find help, but you have an exit: bring some stuff out.

If you can't evacuate or get help: it's time to talk to the attackers. Find out what they want, if they let you evacuate your stuff.


Moo! Uddersucker, moo!

Trigger Warnings
#15 - 2016-11-15 08:15:24 UTC
Also, make friends. Call upon said friends for help. Friends come and kill the 11 man cruiser gang RFing your Astrahus. Content is created and everyone's happy as larry.
Rapid Unexpected Disassembly Event
#16 - 2016-11-15 17:20:24 UTC
As some others mentioned, hole control is key to setting one up. At the very least, set up a little POS to store some rolling ships and scanners while the citadel anchors. Try to keep the holes critical while it anchors, or at the very least a few hours before it finishes.

Quote:
Yeah, from all the responses, Citadel's defenses are not much by themselves, more like force multipliers as the other guy said. But also there's the window "size", you can set it to what, 30 minutes 6 days a week (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Astrahuses have 3 weekly hours of vulnerability). I'm not sure how easy it is for a 10-15~ men fleet to take each layer down in 30 minutes.


When a citadel takes damage, it gets a 15 minute repair timer, and that timer pauses as long as it continues to take damage. So if nobody is there to stop him, a single pilot could take their time shooting for a couple hours. That vulnerability window is essentially only a window to START shooting the citadel, it does not dictate when the shooting stops, necessarily. Also, I'm not sure you can use half hour blocks, think you need one hour blocks.

And don't overestimate the health of each layer. To kill a layer in a half hour only requires 4000dps. (In reality, 5000dps due to the 20% resists. But 5000 isn't very hard to get to)
#17 - 2016-11-15 18:32:35 UTC
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:
When a citadel takes damage, it gets a 15 minute repair timer, and that timer pauses as long as it continues to take damage. So if nobody is there to stop him, a single pilot could take their time shooting for a couple hours. That vulnerability window is essentially only a window to START shooting the citadel, it does not dictate when the shooting stops, necessarily. Also, I'm not sure you can use half hour blocks, think you need one hour blocks.


Thanks a lot, I didn't know that. I thought the time window was the only chance attackers had to deal dmg to a Citadel.

On a sidenote, Raitaruses are up in the market. I bet people will try to use them in low class wormholes but they are much weaker than their Astrahuses counterparts. I suspect we're gonna see lots of them in the killboards soon.

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

#18 - 2016-11-21 20:59:32 UTC
As someone looking to start a WH corp in a lower classhole this topic disturbs me.

At least for the time being I can just setup a large Dickstar, but when they finally phase out POS this sounds like it really punishes the little guy.
#19 - 2016-11-23 08:45:24 UTC
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
As someone looking to start a WH corp in a lower classhole this topic disturbs me.

At least for the time being I can just setup a large Dickstar, but when they finally phase out POS this sounds like it really punishes the little guy.

Although (As someone who is looking to expand into W-Space with a small corp) I agree with you, I'd also like to put forward that perhaps the devs wanted setting up permanently in W-Space to be more of an accomplishment, requiring higher capital and assets). It also somewhat raises the skill level for anchoring in W-Space, which could be a good thing.
#20 - 2016-11-23 12:58:02 UTC
Blake Lowe wrote:
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
As someone looking to start a WH corp in a lower classhole this topic disturbs me.

At least for the time being I can just setup a large Dickstar, but when they finally phase out POS this sounds like it really punishes the little guy.

Although (As someone who is looking to expand into W-Space with a small corp) I agree with you, I'd also like to put forward that perhaps the devs wanted setting up permanently in W-Space to be more of an accomplishment, requiring higher capital and assets). It also somewhat raises the skill level for anchoring in W-Space, which could be a good thing.


I disagree with both of you.

The initial costs may be higher, the costs over time are much lower, because you only need fuel for services and not the citadel itself.

Setting it up is way easier, mainly: launch for corp, anchor, done, well, and then you have to wait for 24h. Setting up a Pos properly can take hours.

It is easier to defend, because you only have your vulnaribility hours to worry about and you have more time to get out or find help if you get attacked. A Pos can be killed after a single 41 hours (if max stront) reinforce and also has a much bigger time window for the second attack.

There are no Pos defences that will stop the prepared and determined attacker. On the other hand, a citadel with neut and jam can also be quite annoying.

Citadels have: unlimited space for ships, items and fuel, the possibility for a clone service, endless amount of private hangars, easy to manage general access for individual characters and multiple corporations. All stuff that a Pos doesn't have and that can make life so much more comfortable.

One major disadvantage for citadels: dismantling one takes a week (of waiting).



Moo! Uddersucker, moo!

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