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Time for the CSM to be Old Yellered

First post
Author
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-12-01 10:51:47 UTC
In a post in General chat I did a small amount of research and realised that besides Steve Ronuken, the majority of the CSM do not even bother to communicate to the players on these forums.

Specifically in the last week

Steve Ronuken - 9 posts
Aryth - Nil, Last post 2 months ago
Mr Hyde113 - Nil, Last post 3 months ago
The Judge - Nil, 2 posts 2 weeks ago, previous 2 months ago
Innominate - Nil, last post 2 years ago
NoobMan - Nil, last post 2 months ago
Jin'taan - 1 post, 3 the previous week
Fafer - Nil, Last post 5 months ago
Kyle Aparthos - Nil, Last post 5 months ago
Bobmon - 4 posts, 4 posts 16 days ago
Xenuria - Nil, 1 post a month ago, previous 3 months ago
Mr Hyde113 - Nil, Last post 3 months ago
Gorski Car - Nil, 1 post 2 months ago, previous 6 months ago
Nashh Kadavr - 1 post, 1 post 2 months ago, previous 5 months ago
Sullen Decimus - Nil, 1 post a month ago, previous 2 months

The CSM has

  • no real communication skills to the community,
  • no longer controls even its own white paper,
  • has for years now done more harm than good as CCP listens to them rather than better communication with the rest of the playerbase
  • Is little more than a lobby group for Null sec
  • Now represents the smallest number of people since the CSM had 12 month terms


In the election results for the CSM 11 it showed that 22345 votes were cast. Votes have not been this low since CSM4 and even CSM1 and CSM3 got more votes.

Yes the playerbase has fallen but not to where it was in 2008. The CSM have failed to promote themselves to the players of the game and the next elections will likely prove to be another failure.

Every election for the last few years CCP have promised to do more to promote the CSM and they have but not enough and the CSM have done little themselves.

If CCP spent the time and money communicating with the community than it does with the CSM, there would be no point to the CSM in the first place and when we look back at the major achievements of the CSM, they actually come out of rage against CCP.

Two Steps threadnaught on POS's, the rage over "Greed is Good" in 2010.

The CSM was a great idea in the early days and you look at what they actually accomplished to the point CCP used to listen and what is the CSM now?

Influence and even then not really, it looks more like a box on a form CCP ticks to say, yeah we ran that by the community. Just look at the changes they had to make on Engineering structures to make them barely swallowable by the community.

The CSM does not even come close to representing the EvE online player base anymore.

It is time for the CSM to be old yellered.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Circle-Of-Two
#2 - 2016-12-01 12:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: The Judge
You are entitled to your opinion, even if I consider it wrong.

I'd love to list the things we have discussed at length with CCP that have or haven't made it into the game, or are still works in progress, but you know... that pesky NDA. The community will never know 95% of what the CSM has worked on with CCP, and in all honesty, that's the benefit CCP gets out of it. We filter out the static of 1000 voices and condense that down to a workable list of concerns and ideas. CCP clearly finds value in the CSM, otherwise they wouldn't be flying this CSM out in full force (yes, all 14) a second time in one term. Unless you have been on the CSM, or work with CCP, who are you to make any comment on influence? I'd only dared to dream about having so much meaningful discussion with devs prior to being elected. But again, I can't exactly copy pasta things to make you think differently can I? That NDA and all.

To assume that these forums are the only place that a CSM should communicate is ridiculous at best. Have you looked at the googledoc stickied to the top of this section of the forums? No? Hmm... I seem to remember there being multiple ways for players to contact us. I have had no issues with getting a hold of players or them getting a hold of me. Feel free to add me on skype, dm me on reddit, poke me on slack or evemail me any time!

Yes, voter turnout was low last year. PCU was low, there was a change in coordinators (CCP Guard and CCP Logibro took over from CCP Leeloo) and a lack of any promotion for the CSM voting season because of that aforementioned. Do I expect a sharp upturn for the coming election? Probably. CCP Guard especially has been a strong supporter of pushing the next election season on the publicity front.

The age old argument of "the csm doesn't represent people". How I love this argument. Clearly we do. Someone had to vote us in, right? If you feel you, personally, are not represented, then perhaps you should find a candidate in the next election that suits you better? The number of times I have had to explain to someone that yes, I have flown everywhere in EVE and yes, I do understand a lot more than nullsec is amazing. I for example spent two years sharing my time between low class wormholes and highsec before joining CO2. Before that I lived in lowsec for a very very long time. And before that I was a mission runner and industrialist (a bunch of wasted SP for my current interests). It might shock you to find out that CSM members by and large know a thing or two about EVE. Again, I urge you to vote in a candidate who you believe represents your interest better, but I also urge you to reach out and have a real discussion with the current CSM members and see if your preconceptions are as accurate as you think they are.

Last but not least... We do control our own whitepaper. I'd personally like to rename it "code of conduct" and have a full rewrite before the next election. Maybe that's something we can get done as a service for whoever comes next.

o7

PS: Took me just over two hours to notice your thread and reply. How's that for communication!

CSM XII Member and CSM XI Permanent Attendee

Diplomat for Circle-Of-Two

@_TheJudge on Twitter

thejudge@csm.eve.com

Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-12-01 22:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
The Judge wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, even if I consider it wrong.

I'd love to list the things we have discussed at length with CCP that have or haven't made it into the game, or are still works in progress, but you know... that pesky NDA. The community will never know 95% of what the CSM has worked on with CCP, and in all honesty, that's the benefit CCP gets out of it. We filter out the static of 1000 voices and condense that down to a workable list of concerns and ideas. CCP clearly finds value in the CSM, otherwise they wouldn't be flying this CSM out in full force (yes, all 14) a second time in one term. Unless you have been on the CSM, or work with CCP, who are you to make any comment on influence? I'd only dared to dream about having so much meaningful discussion with devs prior to being elected. But again, I can't exactly copy pasta things to make you think differently can I? That NDA and all.

And you just listed a huge problem, without even realising it. The CSM with their own bias has filtered down thousands of voices to remove the static. Have you ever considered that filter is one of the reasons the subs in EvE online fall. CCP mostly ignore those voices because they have the CSM.

Look at the mistakes CCP makes time and again, be it crimewatch, engineering structures, jump fatigue, etc..etc..etc..

The Judge wrote:
To assume that these forums are the only place that a CSM should communicate is ridiculous at best. Have you looked at the googledoc stickied to the top of this section of the forums? No? Hmm... I seem to remember there being multiple ways for players to contact us. I have had no issues with getting a hold of players or them getting a hold of me. Feel free to add me on skype, dm me on reddit, poke me on slack or evemail me any time!

No I am assuming that the EvE forums, the forums of EvE Online should be the primary point of communication for the CSM. Oh and congrats on your first post this week.

The Judge wrote:
Yes, voter turnout was low last year. PCU was low, there was a change in coordinators (CCP Guard and CCP Logibro took over from CCP Leeloo) and a lack of any promotion for the CSM voting season because of that aforementioned. Do I expect a sharp upturn for the coming election? Probably. CCP Guard especially has been a strong supporter of pushing the next election season on the publicity front.

The age old argument of "the csm doesn't represent people". How I love this argument. Clearly we do. Someone had to vote us in, right? If you feel you, personally, are not represented, then perhaps you should find a candidate in the next election that suits you better? The number of times I have had to explain to someone that yes, I have flown everywhere in EVE and yes, I do understand a lot more than nullsec is amazing. I for example spent two years sharing my time between low class wormholes and highsec before joining CO2. Before that I lived in lowsec for a very very long time. And before that I was a mission runner and industrialist (a bunch of wasted SP for my current interests). It might shock you to find out that CSM members by and large know a thing or two about EVE. Again, I urge you to vote in a candidate who you believe represents your interest better, but I also urge you to reach out and have a real discussion with the current CSM members and see if your preconceptions are as accurate as you think they are.

Yes the PCU was down but you now "represent" 6% of the population or less. That is a minority. A rather small minority, yes people voted for you those people the CSM has spoken for inn majority for the last 6 years. Null sec.

So how would you feel if your local retailer or government just listened to a minority and in some countries I will admit they do. From the basis of a company it is not a good model for growth or customer retention.

Understanding something is not the question, lobbying is the question and as you stated " I was a mission runner and industrialist (a bunch of wasted SP for my current interests)".

Why would vote something I think is killing the game, has destroyed CCPs ability to interact with the playerbase properly and has no useful value?

The Judge wrote:
Last but not least... We do control our own whitepaper. I'd personally like to rename it "code of conduct" and have a full rewrite before the next election. Maybe that's something we can get done as a service for whoever comes next.

o7

Oh do you!

The Judge wrote:
PS: Took me just over two hours to notice your thread and reply. How's that for communication!

Shame it took a post like this to get you interested in the EvE forums.

o7

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#4 - 2016-12-01 23:43:47 UTC
Just wanted to bring something up about the ECs.

The CSM spent a lot of time talking with CCP about ECs, both before and after release of details. We saw hard figures at the same time as the community did, and immediately went back to CCP to talk about changes. (As a call out, Sullen Decimus put in a great deal of time there)


An important point is, the CSM have no control. We're an advisory body only. And yes, we have disagreements with CCP. They're under no obligation to do as we say; this, I'm sure you'll agree, is a good thing. They do listen, but they come at the game from a different angle from us.



Now, onto some of your points:

You do know that you can't really complain that CCP is listening to a very small subset of players, because they're the players who vote? The franchise is wide open. _Anyone_ can vote. _Anyone_ can run for CSM. And with the voting system picked, fringe candidates have a far better chance of being elected, because a vote for them isn't a waste. you can pick a handful of people who represent you, and the votes will condense on the candidates with the support to be elected. 5 highsec candidates don't destroy each other's chance to be elected. As long as they're all on the ballots, _some_ of them will be elected.



As for the forums being a primary point of communication:

The fact he responded to you quickly should tell you something. He's keeping an eye on the forums. So he's seeing what people are seeing. Perhaps not directly engaging with everything, but keeping an eye on the pulse of the community.


Onto the white paper:

The change in coordinators has brought a bunch of change to the CSM. this is one of the places. Now, CCP will always retain some control here. They're a commercial organisation. That's not going to change. And expecting it to is naive. But where there aren't commercial concerns (such as the conflict of interest to do with that article) they're very open with us.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-12-02 00:36:18 UTC
I am a super casual player, I have not had time to chase The CSM, I have kept an ear up to hear the name mentioned.

I do hear of the CSM on occasion, my main notice of the CSM is via podcasts
The odd time I may read a blog that may happen to belong to them.
I avoid Twitter like the plague
Reddit, oh Reddit another place I dear not tread event though the CSM is there.

There are more resources to interact with the CSM than the forums.

Oh there was talk of CSM leading some focus groups did that ever come into being.

I am happy with what I am hearing



Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-12-02 00:47:27 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Just wanted to bring something up about the ECs.
The CSM spent a lot of time talking with CCP about ECs, both before and after release of details. We saw hard figures at the same time as the community did, and immediately went back to CCP to talk about changes. (As a call out, Sullen Decimus put in a great deal of time there)

What this shows is failing communications between the CSM and CCP.
Take Two Steps thread naught. he had to keep his mouth shut for ages as CCP would not listen and he was bound by the NDA. However as soon as it became public he was off the block. The fact your not even being told is worse than I thought.
Steve Ronuken wrote:
An important point is, the CSM have no control. We're an advisory body only. And yes, we have disagreements with CCP. They're under no obligation to do as we say; this, I'm sure you'll agree, is a good thing. They do listen, but they come at the game from a different angle from us.

Yes you are but compared to the earlier CSMs the influence is to such a point you have to ask, why bother.
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Now, onto some of your points:

You do know that you can't really complain that CCP is listening to a very small subset of players, because they're the players who vote? The franchise is wide open. _Anyone_ can vote. _Anyone_ can run for CSM. And with the voting system picked, fringe candidates have a far better chance of being elected, because a vote for them isn't a waste. you can pick a handful of people who represent you, and the votes will condense on the candidates with the support to be elected. 5 highsec candidates don't destroy each other's chance to be elected. As long as they're all on the ballots, _some_ of them will be elected.

Its not that people have candidates, it that the last few years have shown there is no point in voting.

You are asking people to vote for a lack of interaction with CCP, via a small group, that has rarely shown the ability to help the majority of the players in the game.

Steve Ronuken wrote:
As for the forums being a primary point of communication:

The fact he responded to you quickly should tell you something. He's keeping an eye on the forums. So he's seeing what people are seeing. Perhaps not directly engaging with everything, but keeping an eye on the pulse of the community.

Yet besides your posting Steve there is damn all trace of the CSM on these forums.

Votes are almost at an all time low and the CSM is using silence to boost itself?

Steve Ronuken wrote:
Onto the white paper:

The change in coordinators has brought a bunch of change to the CSM. this is one of the places. Now, CCP will always retain some control here. They're a commercial organisation. That's not going to change. And expecting it to is naive. But where there aren't commercial concerns (such as the conflict of interest to do with that article) they're very open with us.

No I don't expect a commercial organisation to but it underlines the impotence of the CSM now as that was the first White Paper change ever rammed down the CSMs throat.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2016-12-02 01:07:39 UTC
No point in voting. really? That's what you're going with? Why no point? Because null sec always gets people in? Ever think that may be because you're not voting?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-12-02 01:20:12 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
No point in voting. really? That's what you're going with? Why no point? Because null sec always gets people in? Ever think that may be because you're not voting?


No actually it is more to the point that CCP uses and has for years now the CSM as a convenient way not to interact as much as they really should with the playerbase, while chucking the CSM under a bus when it suites them.

At at the end of the day we lose actual interaction with CCP for influence that is no longer worth the paper its printed on.

Its no so much that the CSM is the Null sec lobby, while it still is to a degree it is more the why bother group.

I do not wish to belittle the hard work you do, which I grant you do and probably a lot of, it is more what the CSM has become and that is useless.

The CSM now makes as much sense as paying twice the price for a left handed screwdriver.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

#9 - 2016-12-02 01:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gee Shunziji
The Judge wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, even if I consider it wrong.


Nobody is entitled to have an opinion, it is a right. You can revoke a title but good luck for revoking a human right.

It is troubling that you have to be corrected on such a basic fundamental of democracy. I can't help but notice that you say ''even if you consider [his opinions] wrong '' !? I think you fell in the '' i got the power'' trap. As an elected representative, your job is to gather opinions, understand them and see how you can fit them in the big picture. Aren't you supposed to represent Mark Marconi as well or do you feel like you represent only those who voted for you !? Too bad for you, since you have been elected, you should take his opinion on the same level as yours, understand it and see how you can work on it to merge both point of view to make it a reality. Or do you think just one of us saying this is not enough and you would prefer a riot to change your mind ? The more i think of it, the less legit you sound. Not to mention that i feel he is very right in his assessment and you replied with a defensive bullshit i hear all day long at work and on TV.

Now that being said, i was not aware that there is an in-game elected government representing the whole 30k ish players in the game. To be honest, from what i read here, it sounds to me like CCP has built a group of volunteers paying a monthly fee to do an employees job but hey, i might be missing the point here. Or do they pay you for doing it ? In which case that would be a conflict of interest on a democratic point of view. So for you guys, playing the game was not enough !? You have to play politicians in a video game on top of it ? How deep this **** can get always amazes me.

NDA about agreements between CCP and the player base representatives !? The hell is that exactly ? Ever heard about transparency ?! All these conversations should be written down and made available to the community with information like : to the word transcriptions of what has been discussed, who voted on what, what the meeting plan was, what are the next meeting points to be talked about. But hey, maybe i am still missing the point here.

I was also wondering, if i have 5 alts, am i counted for 6 votes or 1 ? Because you know... counting 1 voice as 6 would be illegal in the real world.

Thanks for your time, i guess.

Edited : You know what, don't mind me. I said what i had to say and that's all it is going to be. I have been reading the summaries and i could not care less about this aspect of the game. It is not even the game at this point. Just a bunch of words with an illusion of politic. So pretend i am not here. I have enough of the real world bullshit to live with, i am gonna slowly walk away from this, never look at it again and let you boys do what ever it is you are doing. I can't get my head around what it is exactly you are trying to accomplish. I will just mind my own business in the virtual world of EVE Online and keep the social concerns and meeting summaries away from my relaxing free time.

'' Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, Fuck you .. ''

-Period

Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-12-02 03:50:39 UTC
Gee Shunziji wrote:
As an elected representative, your job is to gather opinions, understand them and see how you can fit them in the big picture. Aren't you supposed to represent Mark Marconi as well or do you feel like you represent only those who voted for you !? T


The CSM is not a government, and no one CSM member can be representing all players and all play-styles. imho, the quality of CSM is in the breadth of the play styles represented, which for CSM XI is... limited.

CCP is the government and make decision for the game for the best of their business interests first, and their business interests are for the game we all share to continue to grow.

I believe the best way to see CSM members is that they are elected lobbyists.

Most of those that are elected without a real platform get a seat because they are friends with the right opinion leaders, (i.e. space warlords), and are expected once elected via bloc votes to report to the power players who helped them get their seats so that they can better anticipate, or alter, the effects of upcoming changes to their own in-game activities.

A few like myself run on specific platforms, so that people can see upfront what I would lobby for if elected.


Gee Shunziji wrote:

I was also wondering, if i have 5 alts, am i counted for 6 votes or 1 ?


Yes, unfortunately at that time each player cast one vote per account, so the richest players with the most accounts have an undue influence on the results of the vote, which partially explain the influence of Null Sec.

You should not ignore this part of the game, and the associated meta. It impacts the game we all play. Some features have been altered by the influences of CSM members, like for example the limitation of Null Sec access from WH space, or the weakening of siphons to combat passive moon incomes, or the rapid across-the-board regeneration of entosis nodes in favor of the defenders, regardless of the true reach of their space...

While CCP is keeping the CSM has an elected body, the CSM needs lobbyists to counter the Null Sec blocs agenda, and it needs voters to fully use the STV system, that is a fairer system for electing representatives.

Candidate for CSM XII

Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2016-12-02 12:22:22 UTC
Gee Shunziji wrote:
Nobody is entitled to have an opinion, it is a right. You can revoke a title but good luck for revoking a human right.


I suspect you're reading meaning into a statement, which wasn't there. I didn't read it that way.



Gee Shunziji wrote:

Now that being said, i was not aware that there is an in-game elected government representing the whole 30k ish players in the game. To be honest, from what i read here, it sounds to me like CCP has built a group of volunteers paying a monthly fee to do an employees job but hey, i might be missing the point here. Or do they pay you for doing it ? In which case that would be a conflict of interest on a democratic point of view. So for you guys, playing the game was not enough !? You have to play politicians in a video game on top of it ? How deep this **** can get always amazes me.


We get a free account, and free access to fanfest (though we have to pay for food, hotels and flights if we take that). We do get flown to Iceland for the summit (if picked) and put up in a hotel for the time. That's free. But hardly payment. (and there's food and drink costs. Iceland's not a cheap country).



Gee Shunziji wrote:

NDA about agreements between CCP and the player base representatives !? The hell is that exactly ? Ever heard about transparency ?! All these conversations should be written down and made available to the community with information like : to the word transcriptions of what has been discussed, who voted on what, what the meeting plan was, what are the next meeting points to be talked about. But hey, maybe i am still missing the point here.


The NDA is there so CCP can talk to us about future plans, without it affecting the game at the time. We do have Internal affairs keeping an eye on us too. It's caused me a little trouble in the past, with things like the tech 3 destroyer material changes. I was _going_ to be restocking on materials on the day we were told about the change. But with finding out that the materials were going to be doubling up in the future, I couldn't, in good conscience, do so. (Originally they cost X in materials. That changed to 2X. So destroyers built before the change went live would be cheaper. I could have built a bunch and made a profit, but there was an ethical issue there.) Another example was someone who bought rig materials when Freighters were announced to be getting rig slots. We heard about the change to low slots a fair time before others. But that person couldn't cash out until it went public.

The NDA means that CCP can talk to us about things which are planned, and things which they're kind of thinking about. If something happens, we can talk about it. If it doesn't (and that's happened a few times) we can't.



Gee Shunziji wrote:

I was also wondering, if i have 5 alts, am i counted for 6 votes or 1 ? Because you know... counting 1 voice as 6 would be illegal in the real world.


6 votes.


Gee Shunziji wrote:
Edited : You know what, don't mind me. I said what i had to say and that's all it is going to be. I have been reading the summaries and i could not care less about this aspect of the game. It is not even the game at this point. Just a bunch of words with an illusion of politic. So pretend i am not here. I have enough of the real world bullshit to live with, i am gonna slowly walk away from this, never look at it again and let you boys do what ever it is you are doing. I can't get my head around what it is exactly you are trying to accomplish. I will just mind my own business in the virtual world of EVE Online and keep the social concerns and meeting summaries away from my relaxing free time.

[/quote]

An important point is, the CSM are _not_ politicians. We're an elected focus group. Politicians have power. We only have influence.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2016-12-02 20:18:04 UTC
OP, check out the eve subforum on Reddit. This is where the real conversations take place. Where CCP has no control. Devs and CSM both are regulars.
Red Squad Alliance
#13 - 2016-12-03 06:17:37 UTC
Gurney Hallack wrote:
OP, check out the eve subforum on Reddit. This is where the real conversations take place. Where CCP has no control. Devs and CSM both are regulars.



So... little to no activity and engagement with the official community forums is justified because, somewhere else, people are doing talking.

Sets a great example for all the new players.

Quote:
"Have a suggestion? Go post it on reddit, because nobody listens here."
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2016-12-03 21:17:39 UTC
Hiroshi Yakasuki wrote:
Gurney Hallack wrote:
OP, check out the eve subforum on Reddit. This is where the real conversations take place. Where CCP has no control. Devs and CSM both are regulars.



So... little to no activity and engagement with the official community forums is justified because, somewhere else, people are doing talking.

Sets a great example for all the new players.

Quote:
"Have a suggestion? Go post it on reddit, because nobody listens here."

Yeah it makes about as much sense as saying "Yeah but we write a weekly article in the New York Times"

And they wonder why no one bothers to vote for the CSM any more.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Amarr Empire
#15 - 2016-12-03 21:38:58 UTC
Looking at how seriously the members of the CSM takes the CSM is also a good measure as to why the CSM has to go.

Thank you to Jin'taan and the Judge for the weekly attendance and updates.

Now the CSM is a voluntary position. However having said that it is a job, a job every member of the CSM stood up and stated they would do.

So in the case of the weekly attendance, you would expect every member to attend at least 75% of the meetings. The reality is anything but that.

Now the weekly meetings are:
Jin'taan wrote:
The main one here is the CSM Meeting Attendance sheet, which tracks each meeting we are asked to attend, and who attends them.


So these are the meetings that CCP has asked the members of the CSM to attend. So pretty important or CCP would not bother wasting their time and money on.

The actual attendance for these meetings was:

The Judge 100%
Steve Ronuken 94%
Jin'taan 91%
Xenuria 88%
Inomminate 75%
Sullen Decimus 75%
Bobmon 69%
Nashh Kadavar 69%
Gorski Car 50%
Fafer 41%
Kyle Aparthos 38%
Noobman 38%
Mr Hyde113 31%
Aryth 22%

So taking 75% as a reasonable margin, 8 of the 14 members did not even meet that with 5 members not reaching 50%.
I must admit I was impressed with The Judge's 100% and Steve's 94% but more than half of the CSM don't meet reasonable expectations.

Now it is the CSMs job and they wanted it but if the members of the CSM can't be bothered with the CSM, why would anyone else.

The CSM has become little more than an excuse for CCP not to interact with their customers properly and someone to blame when things go horribly wrong.

It is time the CSM was disbanded after all, the majority of the CSM can't even be bothered with the CSM.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

The Initiative.
#16 - 2016-12-03 22:24:01 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:


So in the case of the weekly attendance, you would expect every member to attend at least 75% of the meetings. The reality is anything but that.


Oh, CCP started paying the CSM now? Maybe a nice few hundred a week?

No? No?

Well then the CSM members gotta go to work sometimes.

I was on the CSM. I attended weekly meetings when I could. Aint got the stats to hand, but I'd guess it was about 25%. Sometimes I was on holiday. Sometimes I could work from home. Sometimes I didn't have some damb family business to attend to. Sometimes I was able to put in some unpaid hours to talk with the other CSMs and the CCP people whom I all liked quite a lot to give as much input as possible into whatever I knew somehing about.

When I couldn't make those meetings because I had to, you know, work to get money to pay the rent and buy food, I caught up by reading the minutes and talking with the other CSMs. I didn't just sit on my ass.

So please have a nice hot cup of shove your entitlement about what you think you can demand unpaid volunteers do.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Amarr Empire
#17 - 2016-12-03 22:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Malcanis wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:


So in the case of the weekly attendance, you would expect every member to attend at least 75% of the meetings. The reality is anything but that.


Oh, CCP started paying the CSM now? Maybe a nice few hundred a week?

No? No?

Well then the CSM members gotta go to work sometimes.

I was on the CSM. I attended weekly meetings when I could. Aint got the stats to hand, but I'd guess it was about 25%. Sometimes I was on holiday. Sometimes I could work from home. Sometimes I didn't have some damb family business to attend to. Sometimes I was able to put in some unpaid hours to talk with the other CSMs and the CCP people whom I all liked quite a lot to give as much input as possible into whatever I knew somehing about.

When I couldn't make those meetings because I had to, you know, work to get money to pay the rent and buy food, I caught up by reading the minutes and talking with the other CSMs. I didn't just sit on my ass.

So please have a nice hot cup of shove your entitlement about what you think you can demand unpaid volunteers do.

It was your job and you put your hand up for it. No one forced you or the current CSM to do so.

You made a commitment to be on the CSM and do the job, knowing that you didn't have the time to do it. So that just shows you didn't think the CSM was worth much.

You volunteered and even ran for election. Did you ever post about how you didn't have time to do the job, before the election?

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#18 - 2016-12-04 00:35:27 UTC
Attendance at the meetings is a good thing to have. However, it's not a requirement, and most of what we do is done asynchronously, via the CCP's internal wiki, and using CCP's hipchat. The meetings are, tbh, a minor point.

Unfortunately, the other interactions are somewhat difficult to quantify. Unlike meeting attendance. Of courser, if you can't see how even a 100% rate could be useless (It's not in this case. I'm speaking in hypotheticals) then you're not thinking about things.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Amarr Empire
#19 - 2016-12-04 04:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Attendance at the meetings is a good thing to have. However, it's not a requirement, and most of what we do is done asynchronously, via the CCP's internal wiki, and using CCP's hipchat. The meetings are, tbh, a minor point.

Unfortunately, the other interactions are somewhat difficult to quantify. Unlike meeting attendance. Of courser, if you can't see how even a 100% rate could be useless (It's not in this case. I'm speaking in hypotheticals) then you're not thinking about things.

Actually it is rather funny you should say that.

After the suggestion about reddit, I had a look and found this

So apparently the fact that the current CSM don't communicate with the players much is not a new thing as that article is 4 months old.

Apparently last years CSM also had a similar low turn out for meetings where they were described as
Quote:
The meetings only account for maybe 50% of the communication we have with ccp. Manny is around on slack and the internal communications we have with ccp, many a long 'back in the day' talk has been shared with Manny on the csm.


So they are not a requirement and make up a large proportion of the interaction with CCP.

While attendance is not a guaranteed measure of participation in the CSM it is the main publicly available indicator players have and as I said before, if it was not important CCP would not be bothering to waste time and money on it.

And once again I will state that you wanted this job. You ran for election to get this job as did the rest of the CSM.

And the net effect of the CSM is that CCP communicate less with the players because of the CSM. The CSM needs to go and after reading reddit and the Crossing Zebras article I know I am not alone in my desire to see it gone.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#20 - 2016-12-04 21:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin'taan
Mark Marconi wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Attendance at the meetings is a good thing to have. However, it's not a requirement, and most of what we do is done asynchronously, via the CCP's internal wiki, and using CCP's hipchat. The meetings are, tbh, a minor point.

Unfortunately, the other interactions are somewhat difficult to quantify. Unlike meeting attendance. Of courser, if you can't see how even a 100% rate could be useless (It's not in this case. I'm speaking in hypotheticals) then you're not thinking about things.

Actually it is rather funny you should say that.

After the suggestion about reddit, I had a look and found this

So apparently the fact that the current CSM don't communicate with the players much is not a new thing as that article is 4 months old.

Apparently last years CSM also had a similar low turn out for meetings where they were described as
Quote:
The meetings only account for maybe 50% of the communication we have with ccp. Manny is around on slack and the internal communications we have with ccp, many a long 'back in the day' talk has been shared with Manny on the csm.


So they are not a requirement and make up a large proportion of the interaction with CCP.

While attendance is not a guaranteed measure of participation in the CSM it is the main publicly available indicator players have and as I said before, if it was not important CCP would not be bothering to waste time and money on it.

And once again I will state that you wanted this job. You ran for election to get this job as did the rest of the CSM.

And the net effect of the CSM is that CCP communicate less with the players because of the CSM. The CSM needs to go and after reading reddit and the Crossing Zebras article I know I am not alone in my desire to see it gone.


Except we highlighted in that that we did have a lot of communication with you guys!

We have had a PvE Townhall, a Capital Industrial Roundtable (prior to the Rorqual changes), 2 Ganking Rountables (one with anti-gankers, one with gankers), a Nullsec Content Creator Roundtable, we're active on Reddit, here and Twitter. We also appear on podcasts and streams regularly, and I have sat around in Rookie Help to observe the shift in questions being asked after the NPE changes.

I also know I've responded to every mail I get sent, I write weekly (Well closer to fortnightly) CSM updates here, and in response to that article we tried to do a CSM podcast with Apothne, but it had a pretty mediocre response so it was cancelled. I also do a Quarterly Review with the rest of the CSM, which lets even our more quiet members have a public face, if they wish to.

I like to call it the Schrodinger's CSM effect. We're either too powerful and ruling everything for our own benefit and therefore we should be eradicated, or we're doing nothing and therefore we should be discontinued. No-one seems to accept that there is a happy middle. And - whilst I don't think we are there yet - we're working towards it.

One of the problems is that people only want to hear from us when they are having problems and want to give us a solution to be implemented right then. I'm sorry, but we are not junior game devs, you are not a junior game dev. We don't drive changes to the game, we help isolate and identify problems with the game and bring them to CCP, and they present us aspects of their plans and we work to give them directional feedback to it. It's a valuable part of CCP's process, it's just not what everyone seems to think it is, which is why there's so much frustration between the CSM and the community, leading to threads like this, where we're forced to come out to simply stop our names being dragged through the mud and defend what we do.

Personally, I'm working to create some more simple, understandable outlines of what the CSM does to give to the people planning to run for CSMXII. I'm also planning to do an Industrial Townhall in January (expect that thread soon) to get a solid overview on the impacts of the EC's after the changes have settled and to bring their problems to CCP next summit.

Also, on why our communication does - at times - seem to be sparse or slow. It's simply because if we express something improperly or even make a mistake, we will simply be torn apart publically. And we accept that. It's part of being a public figure. But it means communication has to be checked to make sure it's perfect. And, to prove my point, I haven't proofread this, and it took me about an hour less than the updates I write because of that (not including the NDA checking process).

EDIT: That said, I am looking for more ways to communicate. Would having a list of what - actively - all members of the CSM do in the game help? Would it be easier if I provided the weekly updates in audio format? Video format?
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