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Lore Question: Is it possible for a capsuleer to permanently die?

Author
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-12-14 15:22:01 UTC
So this came largely out of hitting up the wiki because I was curious about clones and pods. Part of the deal with conciseness transfer was the memory flash that's required to be installed into pods. Since the wiki mentions that previous uses of the tech in vehicles could result in a failure to fire, and could effectively "kill" a clone owner despite, them having a backup, and there was a .3 % chance for it to fail in pods, can your mind fail to transfer?

Since pilots are able to get out of their pods, if a pilot got tired of immortality, or ticked off a corporation and got whacked at dinner (maybe the guy really wanted a space-steak instead of pod goo), then would losing their life result in no more clones, or just a reupload using outdated memories?

Also when Dust514 was introduced, did it change how memory transfer affected pilots, or was it specific to ground-based clones?
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-12-14 17:26:48 UTC
Malthus Aurelius wrote:
So this came largely out of hitting up the wiki because I was curious about clones and pods. Part of the deal with conciseness transfer was the memory flash that's required to be installed into pods. Since the wiki mentions that previous uses of the tech in vehicles could result in a failure to fire, and could effectively "kill" a clone owner despite, them having a backup, and there was a .3 % chance for it to fail in pods, can your mind fail to transfer?

Since pilots are able to get out of their pods, if a pilot got tired of immortality, or ticked off a corporation and got whacked at dinner (maybe the guy really wanted a space-steak instead of pod goo), then would losing their life result in no more clones, or just a reupload using outdated memories?

Also when Dust514 was introduced, did it change how memory transfer affected pilots, or was it specific to ground-based clones?



Prior to the introduction of capsules to the Caldari by the Jovians, our ships had crews and our captains were mortal as everyone else. However, capsuleers are only immortal because of our links to cloning technology. Remove that link, and you lose your immortality.

Eve isn't about flying the biggest ship, or having the biggest guns. It's about finding something you love to do and doing it better. Gallente born. Guristas driven.

Gila "Amadeus"

Next in line: Rattlesnake

#3 - 2016-12-14 20:29:19 UTC
A player character is never going to permanently die unless the player decides to biomass them. That can be explained IC as a cloning accident by all means.

The DUST implants are specific to ground troopers (and possibly Valkyrie fighter pilots). At the moment I understand them to be incompatible with pod piloting implants.

The community used to run with the idea of taking mind-state backups that could be used to resurrect a character killed out of the pod. That's usually referred to as soft-cloning. I believe current canon is that taking a full mind-scan destroys the brain involved in the process. Apparently when you jump clone the body you leave dies, is recycled, and any implants it contained are placed in the newly made, blank, jump clone to await the return of the owner's consciousness.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

#4 - 2016-12-14 20:30:45 UTC
Malthus Aurelius wrote:
...reupload using outdated memories...


Hmmm, does a device that can store consciousness and memories even exist? I might have missed that, but I can't remember to have read about such a storage device.

My understanding is that the neural transfer from the pod to the cloning facility via FTL is more like a streaming process. The Transneural Burning Scanner in the pilot's pod reads the brain and transfers immediately to the clone station. There is no intermediate step that stores the complete brain content (maybe the transfer is "buffered" for smaller chunks of memories). There is also only one try since the brain gets destroyed during the scan process. If the process fails or the Burning Scanner is damaged and doesn't work properly, you are dead forever, at least to my understanding.

In the Cloning Scientific Article are two other interesting concepts:

- The Burning Scanner is coupled to the Clone in the facility which means there is only one working scanner for the clone. If you go to a pub and return to your pod but it is stolen or destroyed or whatever, you're in trouble. You can't use another pod because it won't have the right Scanner that fits to your clone. But, I think, one could go to the clone station, let them create a new clone and get a new Scanner that is correctly coupled with the new clone.

- Clone Quality means that if you don't buy a clone of high quality the rebuilt brain might be flawed and you lose a part of your memories (i.e. skillpoints) even though the scanning process in the pod might have been perfect. If you don't buy your personal clone at all you get some kind of cheap standard clone model which has poor quality of course and the memory loss might be heavy. (Having no clone is not possible because capsuleers are obliged to have one in order to get a piloting license from CONCORD.) In the past when Clone Grades existed this was the background explanation why you could lose skillpoints when your clone wasn't up-to-date (meaning: of too poor quality for the amount of skillpoints you had). I don't know if the Clone Quality concept is still relevant today where no Clone Grades exist anymore.

The Jita 4-4 chronicle discusses this question if a capsuleer can die in Part II. It's interesting to read. It basically says Yes and explains that the other critical variable in the process - aside from the Burning Scanner and the highly controlled environment in your pod - are the people in the white suits who work at the cloning facility that holds your clone. They are the true overlords of us capsuleers who can decide about life or death and "because these people in white suits could make things go horribly wrong for you and me". If the receiving end of the neural data transfer fails it leads to the same ultimate death as a failing sending end.

So, be always kind and nice to the people there when you visit your clone station. Smile
Phoenix Naval Systems
#5 - 2016-12-14 21:20:49 UTC
A prominent character was killed when he died outside the link to his clones. In chronicle published in EON Magazine, which were illustrated and approved by CCP at the time, we saw the effects of dying without your clones being up to date.

SPOILER ALERT BELOW!!!!!!

Quote:
Otro Gariushi, former CEO of Ishukone Corporation, died when a ship collided with his station, killing him while not being linked to his clones. This was covered in the novel, EVE: Empyrean Age.


Quote:
In the magazine chronicle, a capsuleer is murdered without an updated clone, so in addition to the skill loss they suffered a temporary memory loss and had forgotten about the events immediately prior to their murder. However, in the novel Empyrean Age, we see the same sort of death. However, the pilot only suffered skill loss, not memory loss.

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind

Caldari State
#6 - 2016-12-14 22:54:51 UTC
Thanks, this really gave me some insight into what happens.

Also thanks for the clarification on the clone differences. I played DUST before it was shut down, and that's how I came across EVE.

(Plasma Cannon Spam was fun af)
#7 - 2016-12-14 23:19:53 UTC
Kolmogorow wrote:
Malthus Aurelius wrote:
...reupload using outdated memories...


Hmmm, does a device that can store consciousness and memories even exist? I might have missed that, but I can't remember to have read about such a storage device.



Furthering off this point here, a capsuleer can die permanently if killed outside their pod providing they do not have a "backup copy" of their mind stored somewhere ready to be placed into a new body. (EVE: Source, pg. 30) However, they will lose any memories between the time that the backup was made and the time they died, as you can imagine for a capsuleer used to invulnerability such a prospect is quite terrifying.

Also to respond more particularly the ability to store a person's consciousness electronically is confirmed in various places across the lore: the above from EVE: Source, Zainou Biotech corporate description in-game, and also of course the existence of DUSTer clone process (EVE: Source, pg 29).

I hope that helps a little, happy to provide further information upon request. :)

Xun

Sanxing - 'Three Stars' - Committed to the Jin-Mei and the Federation

Find us on your Neocom on the router: Sanxing

Arataka Research Consortium
#8 - 2016-12-14 23:41:52 UTC
It's also worth noting that the Sleepers uploaded themselves to what is essentially the Matrix, which requires digitization of the consciousness. Interestingly, when we were trying to figure out criteria for cryostasis, the constant issue we ran into is that any non-hard-freeze method would eventually result in decomposition of the body through biotic processes-- so it's not that they're even necessarily in a networked dream, but fully uploaded.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

#9 - 2016-12-15 09:01:58 UTC
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-12-26 00:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Quartz Jori
Kolmogorow wrote:
Malthus Aurelius wrote:
...reupload using outdated memories...


Hmmm, does a device that can store consciousness and memories even exist? I might have missed that, but I can't remember to have read about such a storage device.

According to the EvE artbook, pirate factions actually use this method to fudge their own Capsuleer forces. An imprint of the mind is stored electronically and then uploaded onto a clone when the pilot dies.

The method has a relatively high rate of error. Missing memories or crossed wires during the replication process means a lot of pirate clones have mental issues or personality defects they didn't have prior to cloning.
#11 - 2016-12-31 22:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
I would be concerned about the cloning station being hacked and your memories stolen and implanted in Sleeper Clones to do the bidding of the Drifters or someone playing a sick joke and switching your memories into another clone that wasn't yours or worse into a cube of clone biomass that makes the Capsuleer look like Sponge Bob Square Pants.
#12 - 2017-01-07 12:11:57 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
I would be concerned about the cloning station being hacked and your memories stolen and implanted in Sleeper Clones to do the bidding of the Drifters or someone playing a sick joke and switching your memories into another clone that wasn't yours or worse into a cube of clone biomass that makes the Capsuleer look like Sponge Bob Square Pants.


Well. The EVE comic True Stories runs on the conceit that alts are simply that, differently appearing bodies to contain the persona of the capsuleer. This was mainly so that it could tell the story of how the Goons took down BoB without breaking the fourth wall though (most of it was due to the interactions of the Goons & a BoB director's alt).

I play my alts as separate people but that means there is precedent in the canon to thinking of them as different meat suits for a single infomorph. It's a very Cyberpunk/Transhuman concept so would be a good fit for the setting in my opinion.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

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