Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
3 Pages123Next page
 

[Feedback Request] Custom probe formation in the scanning system

First post
Author
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-12-15 16:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Claymore
This is now locked as we have enough information from the replies we have received. Thanks everyone.

Hey folks,

Team Psycho Sisters here with some questions.

1. Do you use custom probe formations when scanning?
2. What formation do you use? Provide pictures if possible
3. Why do you use a custom formation over the default spread or pinpoint formations?
4. Do you use custom formations for combat scanning, exploration or both?

We are asking because we would like to deal with the current state the scanning system is in where we have 2 systems and 1 is kind of in beta but not really but both systems have pros and cons and we are seeing about 50% usage across both of them.

Going off the feedback thread created by the CSM and the above reasons we have started taking a look at what needs to be done to address the primary player concerns, but we are also coming across areas of the feature that we do not have data on player usage such as, custom formations.

Please try and keep this focused on custom formations. We have gathered the other feedback from forums and other sources, but there are some gray areas we would like some more information from you all on.

So just custom formations for now, as required we will make new threads for other specific areas.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Team Psycho Sisters.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-12-15 16:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Yes, I was using custom formations for faster results while I was not max skilled for all kind of sigs. The formation contains 4 narrow probes and 4 wide probes, pinpoint like but in a plane, 4xformation centered, overlapping and 2 steps apart (e.g. 2AU+8AU, or 4AU+16AU). Today I'm just lazy and use pinpoint 95% of the time (except Thera).

BTW: I'm not using the beta because: lack of probe handling accuracy (speed of probing), performance. Both are showstoppers and not some inconvenience.

I'm my own NPC alt.

#3 - 2016-12-15 16:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
Disclaimer: I rarely probe. But I do have one custom formation I have used. A perfect cube - when I am really sure of something's approximate location, I cube it to get a really tight formation on the target. Again, I rarely probe, but I feel like this formation in certain instances gives me a better sensor strength on target than the normal "pinpoint" premade formation. Whether or not it actually makes a difference, *shrug*.

Edit: sorry forgot to answer the last question. That's mainly for combat scanning. The normal "pinpoint formation is perfectly adequate for scanning sigs in my experience. But I haven't tried the hard stuff out in nullsec and all that fun jazz.
Central Omni Galactic Group
#4 - 2016-12-15 16:47:02 UTC
not tested this will assume it does not work, but on earth we only need 2 GPS satalites to get a rough location based on their area of influence and its overlap, with 3 your getting an accurate reading within a few meters and with more you can get it down to inches.

I think the probes here should work the same way, to get max scan on a sig should only require 4 probes in a 3 sided pyramid shape, this would allow good players to actually scan down multiple signatures at the same time speeding things up, as it stands now there is almost zero need to use anything other than pinpoint and then use the shortcut to narrow the scan where needed.

Army of New Eden
#5 - 2016-12-15 16:56:14 UTC
I'm a pretty active explorer, so I'll give my feedback (and feel free to look at my skillset too).

1. Do you use custom probe formations when scanning?
- Yes, but only for Standard and Superior Sleeper Sites at my skill level.

2. What formation do you use?
- I use a sort of cross formation (which has six probes in very close proximity, but not equal distance from a center probe on the X, Y, and Z axis), with the eighth probe that is offset and lower than the center probe. That seems to work best so far.

3. I typically use the pinpoint formation that is provided. I only use my custom Close-up configuration when the pinpoint resolution at 0.25 AU isn't strong enough to resolve it.

4. I primarily use mine for exploration.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2016-12-15 17:24:02 UTC
Full-time explorer with perfect skills here. I just use pinpoint for all PvE content; with a properly fit and rigged Buzzard it's more than adequate for any site.

For combat probing I do sometimes use spread. It gives a snapshot that can be helpful for finding people in safespots and such. However, for the most part I just use pinpoint there too; player behavior is predictable enough that I can usually get it done faster that way.
The Clown Car
#7 - 2016-12-15 17:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Svara Eir
These days I probe probably around 150-400 wspace systems a week between all characters that use / live in wspace, usually with multiple characters scanning different parts of chains at once.

1. Use custom formations?
Pinpoint/Spread are all right in themselves given that we can Ctrl-scale. I've messed around with different formations for fun, but there is only one I've found that works a lot better than the defaults for important use cases.

2. What formations?
Sometimes I cube but not often. The formation I find useful involves taking the top and bottom probes of the Pinpoint formation and bringing them both into the same plane as the others (i.e. they inhabit the centre), except with one of these two centre probes being one smaller resolution than all the rest. It's a little wider than Pinpoint but you adjust this with Ctrl+scaling as per your needs.

3. Why?
The use case this formation deals with the best is putting the formation at 0 on a celestial with multiple signatures around it, which lets me do banding so I can pre-select for things I may or may not want (for example, 99% of the time I'm just looking for WHs and don't really care about the rest). It doesn't matter if a formation is geometrically "superior" if it can't also offer you the option of creative ways to selectively isolate depending on your needs; this is where customs are useful and arguably necessary.

Here is an example image of this custom formation in use. If you are having a hard time discerning what is happening in the image then maybe that helps demonstrate the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it UI problems that were just dumped on players for over a year with zero iteration, breaking the experience of probing to the point of torturous eyestrain at times, all in the name of 'an updated look'. That's the most important conversation to have in terms of probing UI/UX changes, but you did ask us to stay on topic, so...

4. Customs in Combat or Explo?
This is going to be a bit blunt but if you need custom formations for combat probing you're doing it way wrong

EDIT: For reference, I use the new version because I don't know when the old one's being taken out so I stay used to it. I like all the panel UI changes; it's the sphere shaders in the actual 3D probing environment that sometimes make it borderline unusable.
#8 - 2016-12-15 18:23:38 UTC
It was stated in the dev blog announcing probe formations, that the default formations were good, but not the most optimal configurations. A typical game design decision leaving room for player skill. That inevitably lead to min/max players experimenting with custom formations of probes, attempting to get the best possible result. If CCP wishes to end debate and give players the most optimal pinpoint formation, that would eliminate the one custom formation I use most often.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2016-12-15 20:44:08 UTC
I have probed extensively in the past for exploration sites and wh mapping. My combat probing experience is limited to once or two. The main issue with scanning is the interface and not the probe positioning.

As for you seeing usage of 50/50 between the two systems, I would be curious to see how this breakout works if you look at players who were around before the beta was introduced and after. My guess is you would see a heavy weight toward the beta map for newer players (because it is defaulted to it) and toward the old version for older players.

Custom Probe Position:

I never have needed to use a preset custom position. I have been able to find all sites by using the current ones and making slight adjustments. Before I got better skills, I would need to manually move one or two probes to get superior sleeper sites, but in the end everything was scanable easily.

Scanning Systems (old vs new/beta versions)

Below are the reasons the beta system is not being used by me or a few others I fly with:

1. To much "noise". It is hard to see anything given the color of the probes and interface. The beta version looks very nice, but it has reduced the clarify of scanning (and thus speed). The beta version is even harder to move individual probes as well.

2. Ease of use. The interface is slower in the new version. It is harder to see (as stated above). Moving probes and even the camera itself is much harder to do in the beta version.

3. The integration with the galaxy map in general. The old version was simple: switch between the views of the system or galaxy. The new system causes you to need to scroll in or out which is slower and no where near accurate enough. The system requirements of the new map do not help at all. Yes, one client on a decent computer has no problem, but once you get a couple of accounts logged in, an internet browser up with dotlan and other sites, comms, etc. The beta version of the map and scanning interface is not responsive enough.


TLDR: The problem with probing is not custom positioning but the interface. The old version does not look pretty but it is superior due to how quickly things can be done. Beta version looks great but suffer in performance.


Clarifications: Yes, I have tried using the new interface for several weeks both in null and wormhole space (as did others in my corp), so we have experience with the new system. We even did tests where we had several people start at one end of a pipe and start scanning. Half used the beta system and half the old system. The old system was faster in all but one case due to low skills (we assumed due to he was the newest guy with the least expereince).
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#10 - 2016-12-15 21:17:37 UTC
Full time explorer, part time wormhole pirate, but don't tell Rixx Javix I said pirate, because I'm not -10.0.

tl;dr - provide us with a more optimal pinpoint, and I'll never use custom again.

1. Do you use custom probe formations when scanning?
Yes, but only when I have to. Making custom formations isn't really fun, it's just something I do once, save, and use when necessary.

2. What formation do you use? Provide pictures if possible

  • I use default pinpoint exclusively when exploration scanning on a well-skilled character, or when combat scanning after narrowing down the probable target using d-scan.
  • I use default spread for initial combat scanning when performing drone rescue operations or looking for opportunities to ninja salvage.
  • I use a cube (not too small, not too large... had to fiddle with it to find the right size and diminishing returns on making it smaller).


3. Why do you use a custom formation over the default spread or pinpoint formations?
I can't get a 100% hit on small signature targets when I have a default formation and lower skills, even if I know where the sig is and am just testing different formations, perfectly placed.

4. Do you use custom formations for combat scanning, exploration or both?
I only use a custom (cube) when the cube will resolve something that pinpoint will not resolve. This is typically for drone rescue, but also for ghost sites when on a character with less-excellent skills, or in a ship with less-than-excellent bonuses.
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-12-15 22:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Scanning wormhole chains with an alt. Scanning for about an hour at a time, but sometimes longer. About 143 probe strength with a day-to-day gear.

CCP Claymore wrote:
Hey folks,
Team Psycho Sisters here with some questions.

1. Do you use custom probe formations when scanning?


Yes, almost exclusively.

CCP Claymore wrote:
Hey folks,
2. What formation do you use? Provide pictures if possible


4x4 formation: 4 probes at 2au in corners of a 1au rectangle + 4 probes at 8au in corners of a 4au rectangle. Will resize if needed.

CCP Claymore wrote:
Hey folks,
3. Why do you use a custom formation over the default spread or pinpoint formations?


Signatures are clustered (around celestials). With this formation I can pinpoint signatures with the small radius probes and get secondary hits (for subsequent scannig) with the large radius probes.

CCP Claymore wrote:
Hey folks,
4. Do you use custom formations for combat scanning, exploration or both?


In combat scanning I use pinpoint when I have a good idea where the target is. Otherwise custom.
Scary Wormhole People
#12 - 2016-12-15 23:16:25 UTC
Just never remove the old probe system and everything is fine.

you can scrap the new one.
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2016-12-16 01:27:39 UTC
Yes, a Cube formation. I save them at 4 different aus for quick change. with lvl 3 skills I can scan anything in 5 cycles. Im not willing to share what it exactly looks like. I did leave out a detail. BUT YES YES YES to custom formation.
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2016-12-16 07:58:29 UTC
I am scanning very regularly, one character with perfect skills and another with levels being a mix of 3 and 4.

With my perfect skill character the default formation are working fine, spread for large sweep, pinpoint for exact localization, usualy down two sizes at a time to get to the location in two to four scans.

With my less skilled character, I can scan relic sites like temples with the pinpoint (one size down at a time), but for crystal quarry sites, the pinpoint is not enough to get 100%. I usualy use control on the arrows from the pinpoint to get all the probes closer to the last 80-90% scan and get to 100% that way.

I have tried custom formations but reverted to the process above.

Candidate for CSM XII

#15 - 2016-12-16 09:36:10 UTC
100% explorer here.

Ad. 1 I'm using custom formation when starting to scan a singnature. Then alt or crtl mousewheeling if necessary;
Ad. 2 More spread pinpointed 8AU formation for start, rest as above;
Ad. 3 Spread formation is spreaded too much, while pinpoint is too narrow to catch signature bubble on 8 AU for example;
Ad. 4 I don't do combat probing but if I do I would use custom formation a lot, less time the probes are in space more chances I would catch my prey.


I have max scanning skills, using scanning implants. Usually flying ships with bonuses to scanning. If not I'm using pinpoint formation for scanning to 100% (last scan usually).

Make the thread about merging old and new map. This is the top issiue here, not formations.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

#16 - 2016-12-16 09:39:07 UTC
I just use pinpoint. It works.

The new scanning system still sucks. It's pretty, but most of it is unnecessary and clunky. Many people have been saying this. The old system is simple and works perfectly well. Change for changes sake if you ask me, and not for the better.
C C P Alliance
#17 - 2016-12-16 10:19:56 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Yes, I was using custom formations for faster results while I was not max skilled for all kind of sigs. The formation contains 4 narrow probes and 4 wide probes, pinpoint like but in a plane, 4xformation centered, overlapping and 2 steps apart (e.g. 2AU+8AU, or 4AU+16AU). Today I'm just lazy and use pinpoint 95% of the time (except Thera).

BTW: I'm not using the beta because: lack of probe handling accuracy (speed of probing), performance. Both are showstoppers and not some inconvenience.


Interesting, will take a look.

So how do you change the size of the probes in this example?

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

C C P Alliance
#18 - 2016-12-16 10:24:07 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Disclaimer: I rarely probe. But I do have one custom formation I have used. A perfect cube - when I am really sure of something's approximate location, I cube it to get a really tight formation on the target. Again, I rarely probe, but I feel like this formation in certain instances gives me a better sensor strength on target than the normal "pinpoint" premade formation. Whether or not it actually makes a difference, *shrug*.

Edit: sorry forgot to answer the last question. That's mainly for combat scanning. The normal "pinpoint formation is perfectly adequate for scanning sigs in my experience. But I haven't tried the hard stuff out in nullsec and all that fun jazz.


Thanks for the reply, I will take a look.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

C C P Alliance
#19 - 2016-12-16 10:25:08 UTC
Satchel Darkmatter wrote:
not tested this will assume it does not work, but on earth we only need 2 GPS satalites to get a rough location based on their area of influence and its overlap, with 3 your getting an accurate reading within a few meters and with more you can get it down to inches.

I think the probes here should work the same way, to get max scan on a sig should only require 4 probes in a 3 sided pyramid shape, this would allow good players to actually scan down multiple signatures at the same time speeding things up, as it stands now there is almost zero need to use anything other than pinpoint and then use the shortcut to narrow the scan where needed.



We are not looking to change the fundamentals of scanning at this point in time. So the underlying system will not be changing.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Fraternity.
#20 - 2016-12-16 10:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: light heaven
1. Do you use custom probe formations when scanning?
Pinpoint are used for most, but I do use a custom formations when It is hard to scan.

2. What formation do you use? Provide pictures if possible
See pic http://imgur.com/a/RblNF, just pull Spread formation closer, you will get it.

3. Why do you use a custom formation over the default spread or pinpoint formations?
For referenc, my scan char has full scan skills, full mid-virtue set, AQ-710 and AR-810. Which means my combat probe's base sensor strength is about 100 point. It is enough to scan combat ships, but is still hard to scan the old off grid booster T3s. I usually set start to scan target by Pinpoint formation and scan range is 8 au or 16 au. Move probe near target and use smaller scan range. I always got 100% after 2 or 3 analyze. When scan range is 0.5 AU and results is larger than 90%, I will use custom formation to scan. It always result 100% to me. In my experience custom formation could always get better result than Pinpoint formation when target is at same horizon.

4. Do you use custom formations for combat scanning, exploration or both?
I only use custom formations for combat scanning. Cause my core probe's base sensor strength is about 200 point which is very easy to scan all cosmic signals.
3 Pages123Next page
Forum Jump