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Loki balance? Minmatar cruiser balance? Arty/autocaanon balance?

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Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-01-03 00:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: An-Nur
The need for a buff/balance to the Minmatar line up and especially M artillery/autocannons has been ignored for what 2 years now? At what point is there going to be a rebalance?
Other than a few niche exceptions Minmatar ships are often nothing more than tackle ships within the cruiser size range.
I'm sitting here looking at the Loki in pyfa scratching my head thinking what a lost opportunity t3 subs are. The Loki offers so many possibilities for versatility, but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none. What could have been a guiding principle for even greater diversity in t3's has ended up looking like a lazy attempt at design theory crafting.
What's the niche envisioned for Minmatar hulls now that other racial hulls don't now do better?
#2 - 2017-01-03 00:30:44 UTC
An-Nur wrote:
...but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none.


Isn't that exactly what T3 Cruisers were designed as? Probably the only one of the class that meets the criteria, imho.


Medium artillery and AC have yet to pass through the Tiericide. Hopefully this year will do it.

O.U.Z.O. Alliance
#3 - 2017-01-03 08:58:20 UTC
Wait air-condition gets a rebalance?

Personally I have nothing against cool air in a warm environment to keep my head cool and all but what does air-condition has to do with EVE again?

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#4 - 2017-01-04 11:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
The t2 cruiser and bc/cs lineup is actually pretty good for minmatar. The muninn is bad but the rest really is quite good (at least as brawlers). The selflinked arty fleet cane is really good, as is the sleipnir. The 100mn perma vaga is very strong too. And the rest of the t2 cruiser is so specialized that they are good by default.


Its only the t1, faction and pirate ones that are pretty bad (and the scythe fleet isnt that bad).



But acs are getting rebalanced soon so there is still hope for kiting minmatar cruisers.
O.U.Z.O. Alliance
#5 - 2017-01-04 13:25:04 UTC
You might be right, those wine-matar ships are so underpowered, you never ever see one on any killboard or something.

Oh wait, the pink background color was Caldari right?

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#6 - 2017-01-04 15:09:54 UTC
An-Nur wrote:
The Loki offers so many possibilities for versatility, but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none. What could have been a guiding principle for even greater diversity in t3's has ended up looking like a lazy attempt at design theory crafting.

The jack of all trades master of none WAS the initial design theory for the T3 cruisers. The Loki is notable in this class because it is the only one that ever came close to meeting this design goal. Seriously all of the T3 ships in the game are desperate need for a re-work from the ground up.
Evictus.
#7 - 2017-01-04 15:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Little
Go to https://zkillboard.com/ and take a look at the top 10 ships (7 day top killers)

At this moment:

#1 Sabre
#3 Stiletto
#4 Svipul
#5 Loki
#7 Machariel (half Minmatar!)

That's 4 of the top 5 slots. Are you sure they need a buff?!
Legio De Mortem
#8 - 2017-01-04 17:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: napaCeN
yes they need a buff, cause only loki out of all those can use Medium arty/autos and we all know what kind of fit is the loki most used and its not for dps! Medium artys/autos are totaly underpowered and suck in almost every aspect comparing to other weapon systems, the most used are artys on cynabals munnins and sometimes on loki.
#9 - 2017-01-04 18:47:05 UTC
The thing with projectile weapon balance is a lot of it is dependent on the ship hulls that use the weapon platform and their bonuses. It is my impression that small and medium projectiles are in a somewhat weak spot right now.

For small turrets the svipul has very strong bonuses that make small projectiles work very well, however the t1 min frig line seems to be a bit weak, that said there is a min frig in the top ten frigs, oh wait it's the vigil. The Stiletto also uses small projectiles and is a strong ship, but for reasons other than the guns. the sig radius, speed, and point/scram range bonus are imo all bigger factors to fly the ship than the guns. If we look at the top ten solo stiletto pilots only 5 have more than one kill. Many kills that have Stilettos on them the only thing the Stiletto uses is a point. At the cruiser size things aren't any better.

Also in the top 10 overall the cynabal! With the angel cartel bonuses autocannons/arty become strong. Also the dramiel makes the frigate top 10 list, and has a much better solo rate compared to the stiletto. On the BS level the mach shows projectiles can be strong, but again how much of that is due to the weapons and how much is the ship bonuses? How often are the tempest and maelstrom used?

There are also important questions to ask like why is someone flying the ship. the loki is in the top 10, but how much of that is to provide long range webs or armor/skirmish boosts vs do damage?

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#10 - 2017-01-04 19:12:24 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
The thing with projectile weapon balance is a lot of it is dependent on the ship hulls that use the weapon platform and their bonuses. It is my impression that small and medium projectiles are in a somewhat weak spot right now.

For small turrets the svipul has very strong bonuses that make small projectiles work very well, however the t1 min frig line seems to be a bit weak, that said there is a min frig in the top ten frigs, oh wait it's the vigil. The Stiletto also uses small projectiles and is a strong ship, but for reasons other than the guns. the sig radius, speed, and point/scram range bonus are imo all bigger factors to fly the ship than the guns. If we look at the top ten solo stiletto pilots only 5 have more than one kill. Many kills that have Stilettos on them the only thing the Stiletto uses is a point. At the cruiser size things aren't any better.

Also in the top 10 overall the cynabal! With the angel cartel bonuses autocannons/arty become strong. Also the dramiel makes the frigate top 10 list, and has a much better solo rate compared to the stiletto. On the BS level the mach shows projectiles can be strong, but again how much of that is due to the weapons and how much is the ship bonuses? How often are the tempest and maelstrom used?

There are also important questions to ask like why is someone flying the ship. the loki is in the top 10, but how much of that is to provide long range webs or armor/skirmish boosts vs do damage?


This

They need to be looked upon not just medium ones but all of them anything minmatar worth flying is pirate(half minmatar) ships or ones that spew missiles as long as dmg goes.

Fleet tempest need to be looked upon since tier 1 got dmg buff phoon and navy phoon should use more drone space 300/375 respectively with current bandwidth unchanged

Everything sub battle cruiser and not t2/3 is just fast tackle with sub par damage and usually tank too.

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#11 - 2017-01-04 23:43:34 UTC
Loki is fine as it is - you might need to throw a bit of bling at it or be a little inventive to do some things well but that is the nature of the beast.

T3s generally are in a good place as in somewhat interesting rather than balanced into bland mundaneness aside from the odd sub-system that needs a tweak.
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-01-05 00:50:04 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Loki is fine as it is - you might need to throw a bit of bling at it or be a little inventive to do some things well but that is the nature of the beast.

T3s generally are in a good place as in somewhat interesting rather than balanced into bland mundaneness aside from the odd sub-system that needs a tweak.


I wouldn't call sitting on a low sec stargate popping frigates much of a strong ship. Its only other role is gang support as a brick webber for gang work. The fact that a solo Loki couldn't go toe to toe with any of the other t3's let alone a Stratios says something. It puts out anaemic DPS in most fits, and thus reduced to support tackling like its HAC brethren or alpha-ing frigs. Whoo what a ship!

Legio De Mortem
#13 - 2017-01-05 11:59:21 UTC
An-Nur wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Loki is fine as it is - you might need to throw a bit of bling at it or be a little inventive to do some things well but that is the nature of the beast.

T3s generally are in a good place as in somewhat interesting rather than balanced into bland mundaneness aside from the odd sub-system that needs a tweak.


I wouldn't call sitting on a low sec stargate popping frigates much of a strong ship. Its only other role is gang support as a brick webber for gang work. The fact that a solo Loki couldn't go toe to toe with any of the other t3's let alone a Stratios says something. It puts out anaemic DPS in most fits, and thus reduced to support tackling like its HAC brethren or alpha-ing frigs. Whoo what a ship!


give this guy an oscar, all said
#14 - 2017-01-05 13:43:09 UTC
An-Nur wrote:
The need for a buff/balance to the Minmatar line up and especially M artillery/autocannons has been ignored for what 2 years now? At what point is there going to be a rebalance?
Other than a few niche exceptions Minmatar ships are often nothing more than tackle ships within the cruiser size range.
I'm sitting here looking at the Loki in pyfa scratching my head thinking what a lost opportunity t3 subs are. The Loki offers so many possibilities for versatility, but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none. What could have been a guiding principle for even greater diversity in t3's has ended up looking like a lazy attempt at design theory crafting.
What's the niche envisioned for Minmatar hulls now that other racial hulls don't now do better?



Current niche - T3 brick that webs like nobodies business. Like all T3s, it's a BS tank w/ a cruiser sig radius. T3 brick that paints the crap out of non capital ships so that said capital ships can chew through them quickly.

So that's 2 off the top of my head.


Is it the solo pwnmobile that every pilot in eve wants their favorite ship to be? NOPE

Does that mean it needs buffed? NOPE


Noting how Seipnir fleets chew through gangs (using arty or autos) I'm not really feeling the 'projectile turrets suck' thing is going to get much traction beyond the EFT and perfect world math guy crowds. If you buff projectiles - you're going to make sleipnirs grossly OP.
RvB - RED Federation
#15 - 2017-01-05 13:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Do Little wrote:
Go to https://zkillboard.com/ and take a look at the top 10 ships (7 day top killers)

At this moment:

#1 Sabre
#3 Stiletto
#4 Svipul
#5 Loki
#7 Machariel (half Minmatar!)

That's 4 of the top 5 slots. Are you sure they need a buff?!


Fistly, non of these ships bar the loki are medium sized. Secondly, 3.5 of those ships are pretty exclusively fleet ships (sabre, stiletto, mach + sort of loki, and yes some those can solo but almost no one does). Thirdly, everyone agrees, sort of, that the problem are medium ACs, not artys. And the loki is a arty ship mostly (afaik the reason its so high up is due to its power as a arty gatecamper or web support in fleet))



And lastly the top 10 ship have pretty much 0 meaning on the actual strenghts of a ship, i mean the cynabal is on that list and the cynabal is total garbage.
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2017-01-05 14:00:25 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
An-Nur wrote:
The need for a buff/balance to the Minmatar line up and especially M artillery/autocannons has been ignored for what 2 years now? At what point is there going to be a rebalance?
Other than a few niche exceptions Minmatar ships are often nothing more than tackle ships within the cruiser size range.
I'm sitting here looking at the Loki in pyfa scratching my head thinking what a lost opportunity t3 subs are. The Loki offers so many possibilities for versatility, but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none. What could have been a guiding principle for even greater diversity in t3's has ended up looking like a lazy attempt at design theory crafting.
What's the niche envisioned for Minmatar hulls now that other racial hulls don't now do better?



Current niche - T3 brick that webs like nobodies business. Like all T3s, it's a BS tank w/ a cruiser sig radius. T3 brick that paints the crap out of non capital ships so that said capital ships can chew through them quickly.

So that's 2 off the top of my head.


Is it the solo pwnmobile that every pilot in eve wants their favorite ship to be? NOPE

Does that mean it needs buffed? NOPE


Noting how Seipnir fleets chew through gangs (using arty or autos) I'm not really feeling the 'projectile turrets suck' thing is going to get much traction beyond the EFT and perfect world math guy crowds. If you buff projectiles - you're going to make sleipnirs grossly OP.


Fair enough point about the Sleipners, but I don't know if that invalidates 2 years of calls for a balance for M projectiles.

I'm not saying there's not some really interesting and great ways the Loki is being used in support, but the utility needs either the said buff or utility being the operative function to t3's. Just my thoughts
RvB - RED Federation
#17 - 2017-01-05 14:37:21 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
An-Nur wrote:
The need for a buff/balance to the Minmatar line up and especially M artillery/autocannons has been ignored for what 2 years now? At what point is there going to be a rebalance?
Other than a few niche exceptions Minmatar ships are often nothing more than tackle ships within the cruiser size range.
I'm sitting here looking at the Loki in pyfa scratching my head thinking what a lost opportunity t3 subs are. The Loki offers so many possibilities for versatility, but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none. What could have been a guiding principle for even greater diversity in t3's has ended up looking like a lazy attempt at design theory crafting.
What's the niche envisioned for Minmatar hulls now that other racial hulls don't now do better?



Current niche - T3 brick that webs like nobodies business. Like all T3s, it's a BS tank w/ a cruiser sig radius. T3 brick that paints the crap out of non capital ships so that said capital ships can chew through them quickly.

So that's 2 off the top of my head.


Is it the solo pwnmobile that every pilot in eve wants their favorite ship to be? NOPE

Does that mean it needs buffed? NOPE


Noting how Seipnir fleets chew through gangs (using arty or autos) I'm not really feeling the 'projectile turrets suck' thing is going to get much traction beyond the EFT and perfect world math guy crowds. If you buff projectiles - you're going to make sleipnirs grossly OP.



People complaining about acs are complaining about their range and application, not their dps at 0. A rlml caracal outdamages a cynabal at 25km with reload already considered, thats how bad they are. So any medium projectile kiter is force into arties, at which point they have to compete to the opness that is scorch, drones (hello vni) or railguns which are just better, even drones beat artys for kiting. Now, im not saying arties are bad, they have their place. But its not as the weapon system of a kiting cynabal or stabber, party due to how they are designed and party because they are impossible to fit on most things.
#18 - 2017-01-05 15:52:17 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Do Little wrote:
Go to https://zkillboard.com/ and take a look at the top 10 ships (7 day top killers)

At this moment:

#1 Sabre
#3 Stiletto
#4 Svipul
#5 Loki
#7 Machariel (half Minmatar!)

That's 4 of the top 5 slots. Are you sure they need a buff?!


Fistly, non of these ships bar the loki are medium sized. Secondly, 3.5 of those ships are pretty exclusively fleet ships (sabre, stiletto, mach + sort of loki, and yes some those can solo but almost no one does). Thirdly, everyone agrees, sort of, that the problem are medium ACs, not artys. And the loki is a arty ship mostly (afaik the reason its so high up is due to its power as a arty gatecamper or web support in fleet))



And lastly the top 10 ship have pretty much 0 meaning on the actual strenghts of a ship, i mean the cynabal is on that list and the cynabal is total garbage.



The top 10 ships means they are the top 10 ships being used. I have yet to meet the guy that could convince the Eve community to consistently use a ship that sux. Based on that, top 10 status pretty much VERIFIES the strength of a ship through actual use.

The cynabal is a great all arounder that aligns and warps fast which makes it great for hit and run ops ESPECIALLY in nullbear systems where the crutch of local is a key deterrent to actual pvp content. Does it have awesome damage or oppressive super powers? NOPE. Is it one of the few ships that can get there quickly and do its thing and get out? YEP. They stepped on align/warp times pretty hard to make Eve bigger. The cynabal got a free pass on that round of nerfs. It's not an awesome solo pwnmobile, BUT it is a great ship based on it's ability to get to a fight before the fight docks or gets too big for small gangs to manage. The cynabal is a great ship and gets good use even though is 'sux' (based on your personal criteria).
O.U.Z.O. Alliance
#19 - 2017-01-05 16:33:05 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
...People complaining about acs are complaining about their range and application, not their dps at 0. A rlml caracal outdamages a cynabal at 25km with reload already considered, thats how bad they are. So any medium projectile kiter is force into arties, at which point they have to compete to the opness that is scorch, drones (hello vni) or railguns which are just better, even drones beat artys for kiting. Now, im not saying arties are bad, they have their place. But its not as the weapon system of a kiting cynabal or stabber, party due to how they are designed and party because they are impossible to fit on most things.


Are you comparing long range guns with short range guns again?

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#20 - 2017-01-05 17:03:17 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
...People complaining about acs are complaining about their range and application, not their dps at 0. A rlml caracal outdamages a cynabal at 25km with reload already considered, thats how bad they are. So any medium projectile kiter is force into arties, at which point they have to compete to the opness that is scorch, drones (hello vni) or railguns which are just better, even drones beat artys for kiting. Now, im not saying arties are bad, they have their place. But its not as the weapon system of a kiting cynabal or stabber, party due to how they are designed and party because they are impossible to fit on most things.


Are you comparing long range guns with short range guns again?



I think the crux of the auto cannons sux lobby (I didn't put slow continuous whine, because that wouldn't be politically correct) is that folks just can't bear to fight in first fall off like they are supposed to w/ auto cannons. Autos are deemed worthless outside 2k (whatever the optimal is for a given setup) because EFT says so (we all know math never lies Lol) The secondary 'problem' with AC are that you can't kite in optimal. The real issue is that a lot of the player base is soft and gets all itchy and stressed out fighting inside scram range. I've never had a problem with auto cannons doing what I want them to do. Perhaps I should try kiting with short range weapons so the problems are more evident????

TL/DR There are no balance issues with the loki or projectile weapons. There are problems with folks drawing the wrong conclusions from basic maths. https://xkcd.com/1132/ (protip - if it's not funny, google the explanation.... still not funny..... shrug)
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