EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
 

Getting into tanking.

Author
#1 - 2017-01-11 17:46:37 UTC
o7

When I play games I'm not much of dps person or things like that.
Usually more of a support/tank person.

I already started to train in ewar which I think is very cool.

But I was wondering what would be a good choice to
start going more "tank".

Mainly:

- Are there any faction that as a little advantage over the others on that side.

- Any ship I should look into to get started?

- I know that their's a lot of sort of tanking, I'm just looking for a little header to get started.

- Would probably to do some ratting/pve cause ratting with my black bird isn't too easy.
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2017-01-11 18:03:52 UTC
We have tanks on our ships but the "Tank" role that exists in other MMOs does not really exist here.

Eve is a totally different game. If you want to do well here you will need to let go of pretty much everything that you were progammed to expect from all of the WoW clones.
#3 - 2017-01-11 18:07:41 UTC
Tanking in eve has a different meaning that most MMOs http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Tanking

If you are going the ewar route you should probably be looking at armor tanking as the mid slots are normally used to shields and you need those for your jamming toys. Also, as an ewar ship, you will be a primary target, so you'll want to be able to tank for as long as you can hold out.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

#4 - 2017-01-11 18:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sukkoy Tekitsu
Hum yeah I know there's no tanking like in other mmos,

What I meant to say that I badly expressed was this basically:

Any ship is a bit more sturdy than the other.
Like not to "tank" but just to be able to get shot without blowing up too much.

(like a moa would sustain more damage then a caracal because of it's passive I guess)

I'm looking for that sort of thing.
Escalating Entropy
#5 - 2017-01-11 18:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
As the others said above, "tanking" as a concept is radically different in EVE compared to other MMOs.

Specifically...

- you ship decides your "class"... and you can swap ships around as much as you would like as long as you have the relevant skills to fly it.

- the "tank" role does not exist in EVE.
---- The NPCs here will not focus exclusively on one person
---- There are no skills or modules that force NPCs to focus on you
---- Players (especially experienced ones) will try to prioritize the "tankiest" ships last (unless there is a special reason for them not to).

- A "super tanky" ship is really only good at one thing; bait. Because there are limitations on what you can fit on your ship at any given time, any fit you make is going to make some trade-offs.
If you overtank your ship you tend to give up speed, utility, and/or damage potential. This makes you undesirable to a fleet which needs each member operating optimally.

- Tanks are only one component of your ship and won't always help you.
---- Depending on the engagement, your tank can be pretty much useless.
For example; larger fleets tend to primary one target at a time, meaning that a MASSIVE amount of damage will hit so quickly that there is no chance to be saved by your own tank or from Remote Repair support in your own fleet (note: this can get so absurd that even multi-million HP capital ships can die in mere seconds).

---- If you are in a massive ship with a massive tank, you may encounter a situation where a smaller ship pins you down in space. Because your larger ship has some penalties in applying damage to smaller vessels, you cannot escape. However, the smaller vessel cannot kill you due to your tank.
Had you fit your ship less for tank and more for utility, you may have been able to escape... but in this case, it will come down to who can call friendly support faster.
Escalating Entropy
#6 - 2017-01-11 18:29:53 UTC
Sukkoy Tekitsu wrote:
Hum yeah I know there's no tanking like in other mmos,

What I meant to say that I badly expressed was this basically:

Any ship is a bit more sturdy than the other.
Like not to "tank" but just to be able to get shot without blowing up too much.

(like a moa would sustain more damage then a caracal because of it's passive I guess)

I'm looking for that sort of thing.

And the answer is; it depends on the way you fit it.

Unfortunately, there is no clear answer to your question.

We can say X ship has more armor or shields than the other... but that will not help you much as a ship is more than just one aspect.

For example... the Moa may be tankier than a Caracal (on paper), but because the latter is faster and more mobile, it can avoid damage outright (see: speed tank).

A Maller may be tankier than an Omen, but it has crappy capacitor power and a limited slot layout... making it subpar for anything beyond fleet work in general.
#7 - 2017-01-11 20:06:48 UTC
Sukkoy Tekitsu wrote:
Hum yeah I know there's no tanking like in other mmos,

What I meant to say that I badly expressed was this basically:

Any ship is a bit more sturdy than the other.
Like not to "tank" but just to be able to get shot without blowing up too much.

(like a moa would sustain more damage then a caracal because of it's passive I guess)

I'm looking for that sort of thing.

I feel like that is just something you will pick up over time. In general sure you can fit a moa for more EHP or tank than a caracal, however different people use different fits so for them they might run a glass cannon moa and a big tank caracal.

I think right now it isn't too important to focus in on one attribute too much, Even if you have that giant tank what does it matter if you are a slow brick that does no damage? The enemy is just going to ignore you and shoot your team mates.

With damage there are a few questions, like how far can I shoot, how well can I hit things, and how much can I do? You generally have to pick one or two of these to specialize in with each ship. The ship hull and weapons you fit make some big choices here, but you can add some damage mods, or application mods on top of that. A moa with 250mm rails is very different than a moa with neutron blasters. and the caracal has choices between RLML, HML, and HAMs.

Tank also has multiple issues like raw hit points, resists, and HP regen. Many people will combine raw hit points and resists into EHP which divides your raw hp by one minus your average resists. Is it better to have 100k hit points and no resists, or 25k HP and 75% resists? Most issues don't come out that clear, what if it was 60k HP and 50% resists. In a small gang fight the raw HP probably wins as you won't receive logi reps and will be limited to local reps which probably won't get many cycles off. Where in a fleet the resists probably win as they multiply the effect of logistics reps.

@ChainsawPlankto

Caldari State
#8 - 2017-01-11 20:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Trasch Taranogas
From one newbro to another.

You have shields and armor.

Your race and ship determines bonuses for
either (maybe both).

As a Caldari myself I would benefit to go all
out on shields. Skills should be trained acordingly.

Check what fittings, and riggs gets most value to the ship.

A good site to explore: https://o.smium.org/

I know, before you pros attack me. This game is still
overwhelming and we have to start somewhere.

Forumkiller.

#9 - 2017-01-11 20:50:40 UTC
Amarr or Gallente. There you go.

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<○> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <○>

#10 - 2017-01-11 22:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Tanks in other MMO's have 2 jobs:

- hold the target focused on them and absorb its damage so it doesn't hit other players
- lead the group

EVE has some (a lot, actually) ships that have bonuses to armor or shield resistances, or to repairs, and these can be fitted as "tanks" if you wish. But regular NPC pirates don't have the aggro and threat mechanics that you see in other games; here they go for whichever target first. Only wormhole-space Sleepers have advanced AI that uses threat and aggro switching.

Unlike other games, your ship is your class/role here, and you can switch ships whenever you feel like it. And the modules that you install in your ship give you your abilities, so to speak. However, there are no modules that can directly influence aggro or threat, because again aggro and threat don't quite exist like in other games.

So what we do is "deal with it" as you would in a party with no tanks: everybody puts on their best damage resist armor, and use self-healing and plenty of healers. In this game pretty much every ship can increase its resistances and hitpoints for either shields or armor, and can install a self-repair module (for shields or armor). And we have dedicated remote-repair ships in the logistics lines of ships, from frigates to various types of cruisers.

So, a fleet's logistics group will just switch to whomever is taking damage at any second, and repair them, then switch to the next ship and repair them too. The fleet interface offers the ability to "call" (pop-up messages) when you need repairs, and logistics ships can maintain 10+ targets at the same time. The fleet interface also allows ships to be "monitored" (see their health bars). And otherwise, each fight is about disrupting the enemy logistics chain (using electronic jamming), or killing them first.

As far as leading the group, you can try / train to / become an FC (fleet commander). You kinda need to know the game / know PVP pretty well, to be successful, but the fleet system and the voice comms do support the role. There are even "command ships", they perform a fleet buffing role, which is somewhat fire and forget, so that the FC can focus on directing the fleet and ordering targets, coordinating with the scouts, etc.

EDIT: As far as races / ship lines, each race tries to have equivalent ships to other races. First decision is whether the fleet composition will have armor ships or shield ships, because the logistics has to be one type or the other. And then once that's decided, there are plenty of choices for the actual ships to bring, because, again, all can tank.

So you're looking at racial preferences for shields vs. armor:

Amarr, Gallente = armor
Caldari = shields
Minmatar = either, versatile

PVE activities use the easy-mode weapons, typically missiles or drones, but mostly missiles, so you'll see mostly shield fleets for PVE incursions. PVP activities depend on the fleet composition used; a lot of times it's armor, but very often it's shields. If you want to train logistics, you will likely have to train all 4 races of cruisers, just to cover all options.
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-01-11 22:24:18 UTC
@Memphis Baas

Excellent explaining as always.

Thats the hardest thing for us newbros to understand.
That we are a cog in a machine.

We are part of something bigger. Every encounter has its ship, its fittings
and maneuvers.

Its not like WoT. You have your favorite tank and you play it for hours.

Forumkiller.

Amarr Empire
#12 - 2017-01-11 23:38:14 UTC
Sukkoy Tekitsu wrote:
Hum yeah I know there's no tanking like in other mmos,

What I meant to say that I badly expressed was this basically:

Any ship is a bit more sturdy than the other.
Like not to "tank" but just to be able to get shot without blowing up too much.

(like a moa would sustain more damage then a caracal because of it's passive I guess)

I'm looking for that sort of thing.

If you look at the ship bonuses it can give you somewhat of an idea of this. However that is not everything.

As you have noticed the Moa does have a tanking bonus of 4% per level to shield resists. That is a shield tanking bonus which works the same for active or passive tanks. A reduction of incoming damage by 20% ( at level 5 ) for example is a reduction in damage that you take by a flat amount, that being 20%. How you repair the damage that is applied matters not.

The Moa and Caracal both have a 5% per level damage bonus. In the Moa it's strait damage amount and in the Caracal it is RoF but essentially it winds up being the same thing.

Now on the Caracal you have 10% per level to Missile velocity. Which at level 5 is essentially a 50% range increase. Range can be a much better tank than resists. You can actually get to a range that you are taking no damage at all in some cases. Further if a range increase can allow you to use higher DPS weapons like HAMs where you would normally need heavies then it can also be a defacto damage boost.

When I was new I used to focus on tank because I did not want to loose ships. After a lot of struggle I found out that in many cases the best defense is a great offense. First off you don't have to tank incoming damage from dead NPCs. Second the increased rate at which you can make isk with higher DPS can often offset any increased risks of loosing a ship. But honestly I am not so sure that sacrificing tank for DPS does that.

Further due to exponential increases in training times with each level of a skill this game definitely encourages keeping your skills even in most cases or at least spread out. My typical advice is train tank only until you can use T2 mods. At that point focus more on: DPS, fitting and support skills.
Executive Outcomes
#13 - 2017-01-12 00:15:16 UTC
What you might want to look at is a role we call 'tackle'. It serves much the same purpose as a tank in traditional MMO's. You grab the enemy and keep him from escaping (warp disruption/scramble), often debuffing his speed (web)or increasing your fleet's ability to hit (target painting).
This role expands to where you act as a fleet scout and sometime bait. You can move into Interdictors, probably the most useful ship in null sec- literally all you ever need to fly in a null alliance is a Dictor and your FC will love you. Eventually you can fly a Heavy Interdictor which can single handedly pin down enemy capital ships. The role of tackle is sometimes seen as the new guy's job or disposable hero....but it offers quite a bit of depth and challenge. While I can fly nearly all sub caps in the game, I fly Sabres more than any other ship simply because they are so fun.

Do bear in mind that some EWAR skills are PvP-only modules. You cannot jam, neut, or tracking disrupt NPCs- or if you could it wouldn't matter very much against a mob. This is a mistake I made early on before I was fleeting up and PvP'ing- I trained all the EWAR because it seemed interesting to me- but then I found that none of it was applicable to the solo PvE I was doing as a newbie.

The other obvious support role is Logistics, our version of a cleric. This role is fairly straightforward but incredibly vital. Fleets won't even undock without enough logi to back it up. Again, if all you ever trained to fly was a logi, no one in your alliance would complain. Remote repair is another skill only useful in a fleet, whether it's you multiboxing or playing with others. It's not as common in PvE except in Incursions.

We also have Command Ships which buff your own fleet. New mechanics mean these ships are on the front line now and offer new tactics.
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