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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Serrice Council.
#861 - 2017-03-14 17:54:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Forgotten N Forsaken
Personally i think the nerf is a bit extreme when you consider the fact it cost 10 billion isk to set up a rorq, thats with the drones priced at 1 bil each. I personally paid 1.3 bill for each of my drones but i know guys who had to pay as much as 1.9 bil so there full fits where 15 bil when all was said and done.

We had to put alot on the line for the ship. We should be able to reap the rewards of it.

150 mil an hour is doable in high sec running incursions with a 1 billion isk ship.

(150 mil an hr in the rorq is doable if your mining only arknor for an hr. which is very unlikely)
Goonswarm Federation
#862 - 2017-03-14 18:15:25 UTC
Well done fozzie, you complete muppet! because of the size of asteroids it takes on average 15 seconds for drones to return...

believe it or not I had a bit of optimism about this rebalance but with the flight time for excavators i'm only just mining a little more than my hulk alts at 25meters... Hardly the Behemoth mining machine ?

if I could advise you on how this could be made fair, is to make mining drones like sentries where they do not move and if you wanted to make it even more interesting, throw in a mechanic where you need to be within 2500me or something crazy.. but as it stands Rorquals must be deemed broken at the moment.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#863 - 2017-03-14 19:15:09 UTC
And so the long awaited Rorqual rework is undone in less than 6 months time returning it to purely a boosting role stuck on grid for 5 minutes at a time.

So Fozzie, when do we get our capital mining barge with short range mining lasers?
#864 - 2017-03-14 20:42:12 UTC
Deleted some off-topic posts as well as some posts with offensive language.



Please remember to be respectful!

ISD Chanisa Nemes

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Blades of Grass
#865 - 2017-03-14 21:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ultimatefox02
Quote:
#864 - 2017-03-14 20:42:12 UTC
Deleted some off-topic posts as well as some posts with offensive language.



Please remember to be respectful!


do you think, what you do with my Rorqual , is respect US ?

No, is not , i stop paying my account, for the first time after 10 years , because YOU NOT RESPECT US.

Your update is a S H I T, my last connection yesterday to help a member = 5 MIN , and today to see the belt = 5 MIN

TANK YOU CCP and fly safe , but not with me
Hell's Sirens
#866 - 2017-03-14 21:35:38 UTC
just wanted to say thank you again dev. for making it open season on rorquals . thanks alot buddy ol pal im really thinking of quitting this game .
The Volition Cult
#867 - 2017-03-14 22:12:33 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
And so the long awaited Rorqual rework is undone in less than 6 months time returning it to purely a boosting role stuck on grid for 5 minutes at a time.

So Fozzie, when do we get our capital mining barge with short range mining lasers?

Actually, I kinda want that, or even a battleship size barge
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#868 - 2017-03-14 22:41:40 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
And so the long awaited Rorqual rework is undone in less than 6 months time returning it to purely a boosting role stuck on grid for 5 minutes at a time.

So Fozzie, when do we get our capital mining barge with short range mining lasers?

Actually, I kinda want that, or even a battleship size barge


I was being serious believe it or not. Since the players have shown they want a capital level mining vessel.
Mining lasers are more easily balanced than mining drones, this is a fact.
Short range means they have to move around rather than sit in one place vacuuming everything in sight.
Making it a whole new ship will allow for them to avoid allowing it to use the panic module and industrial core meaning no super tank or invulnerability shenanigans.

Mineral market will adjust and strike a balance with other activities, it always does. Which is why these nerfs never made sense to me in the first place other than to protect high sec miners who refuse to move to null where it would be more lucrative and just as, if not more, safe than their current venue.
The Volition Cult
#869 - 2017-03-14 22:50:58 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
And so the long awaited Rorqual rework is undone in less than 6 months time returning it to purely a boosting role stuck on grid for 5 minutes at a time.

So Fozzie, when do we get our capital mining barge with short range mining lasers?

Actually, I kinda want that, or even a battleship size barge


I was being serious believe it or not. Since the players have shown they want a capital level mining vessel.
Mining lasers are more easily balanced than mining drones, this is a fact.
Short range means they have to move around rather than sit in one place vacuuming everything in sight.
Making it a whole new ship will allow for them to avoid allowing it to use the panic module and industrial core meaning no super tank or invulnerability shenanigans.

Mineral market will adjust and strike a balance with other activities, it always does. Which is why these nerfs never made sense to me in the first place other than to protect high sec miners who refuse to move to null where it would be more lucrative and just as, if not more, safe than their current venue.

+1 to all of this. Not to mentions small ships had finally became profitable due to the materials being cheaper. CCP just couldn't have that.
#870 - 2017-03-15 02:59:06 UTC
Quote:
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Removed one or more post for the above reason.

At this point I have placed a time lock on this thread. There is a right way and a wrong way to give feedback.

If you have an issue, concern, or grievance about this topic please feel free to lay it out. However, calling for anyone to get cancer, **** off and die, or any other form of abuse will not be tolerated.

Take this time to collect yourselves and take a breath.

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Northern Coalition.
#871 - 2017-03-17 14:05:26 UTC
With these changes, it is simply not worthwhile to train into a rorqual and make the investment in the platform due to the large amount of time someone would have to mine in order to break even at this point, even with the price of drones going down.

Honestly...why didn't you just make some capital mining lasers? Those would have been infinitely easier to fine tune than drones and wouldn't have been affected by a drone's return speed.

CCP...we want capital mining lasers, give us capital mining lasers or a mining DD for the rorqual! :D
Goonswarm Federation
#872 - 2017-03-17 14:50:11 UTC
CCP: We've noticed a 5-minute respawn timer after fully clearing a nullsec asteroid anomally since the patch went live, where it used to be nearly instantaneous (something like 10 seconds?). Can you confirm if this was intentional, and if so, whether that respawn behavior is being explored/tinkered with for balance purposes? I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about that in this post or the patch notes.

General feedback:

I've done a good amount of rorqual mining since the patch. Everything is working as predicted, the income is still great, and I will continue to use my rorquals + barges. In addition, mineral prices have recovered nicely since the nerf was announced, to the point of nearly offsetting the nerf entirely from a pure isk-per-hour perspective.

The larger rocks are sometimes a headache to deal with, and it's a shame it now takes ~30%+ more time to acquire enough rocks to build a supercarrier, but otherwise all seems well.

A quick summary of ways to mitigate the changes:


  • Change default "warp to within" to 3,000m or so to avoid bouncing when warping to larger rock models.
  • Use barges/exhumers as much as possible on the larger rocks instead of rorquals.
  • Fit 1 or 2 drone navigation computers.
  • Be especially vigilant mining larger rocks if hostiles are nearby, since drone return time could be significant if the asteroid radius is over 5,000m or so.
  • Try to finish the last asteroid with barges instead of rorqs if you're nervous about the P.A.N.I.C. changes.



#873 - 2017-03-17 21:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariko Musashi Hareka
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the passionate feedback so far!

I'm going to go through a bit of Q&A from the thread so far, but first let's spend a little time diving into the specifics of the proposed PANIC module changes:

There are three separate use cases that we are at least somewhat concerned about with the PANIC module:
  1. The use of the PANIC module alongside tackle modules (such as the Heavy Warp Scrambler) to provide very durable tackle for capital fleets.
  2. The use of the PANIC module alongside cynosural field generators to provide very durable secondary cynos for capital fleets.
  3. The use of the PANIC module as a survival mechanism for entosis Rorquals that come under significant attack.

Use case #1 is the one that we've heard the most concern about from players and the one that many people have been suggesting alternate fixes for in this thread. However use case #3 is probably the most important one to study to help identify the best possible solution to all three problems.
In the context of use case #3, simultaneous use of the PANIC module and entosis link isn't the problem as that is already disallowed. You can't activate the entosis link while the PANIC module is running and activating the PANIC module breaks the entosis connection and halts the capture progress. However even with these restrictions the sequential use of entosis links and the PANIC module can be very powerful. A Rorqual can start capturing the node and only activate PANIC if it comes under too much fire to tank normally. Then the PANIC module provides the time needed for a reinforcement fleet to arrive at the command node and drive off the attackers. In this case the issue isn't that the PANIC module can be used at the same time as the entosis link, but that the Rorqual can use the entosis link and keep the PANIC module as a "get out of jail free" option as needed.

Keeping the three troublesome use cases above in mind, there are three core reasons we were attracted to the idea of approaching the problem with a situational PANIC activation restriction rather than through a similar restriction to what we already use with triage and the networked sensor array. I'll list them below in order from least important to most important:
  • There's value in trying to reach the same goal through a smaller number of rules that players will have to remember. Three separate rules (one for ewar, one for cynos and one for entosis) could probably be used to solve these problems but if we have an opportunity to reach the same goal with fewer exceptions we'll generally prefer the single rule.
  • If possible, we would like to preserve the use of both cynos and ewar by mining Rorquals while they are defending their fleet with the PANIC module. Cynos serve a valuable purpose in helping them get support fleets to their position, and ewar helps them present an actual threat to their attackers during the PANIC period.
  • Most importantly, we were concerned that if we tried to solve the tackle and cyno use cases by restricting those functions while the PANIC module is running (similarly to how ewar is restricted while triage is active) or even by removing the ability to lock targets while the PANIC module is active, we would simply shift the problem into something more similar to what we're seeing with entosis right now. Although such restrictions would prevent a Rorqual from tackling or cynoing with PANIC active, it would not prevent a Rorqual from tackling or cynoing and then saving the PANIC activation as a "get out of jail free" card in case they come under too much fire. Considering the fact that people have the option of using multiple Rorquals and that even threatening a Rorqual's tank requires a fair amount of DPS to start with, this end result would be only a slight improvement on the current situation.

As for the reasoning for this proposal including a target lock restriction instead of a proximity check, the main motivation is to avoid the server load associated with large area proximity checks. For people concerned about jams and damps, remember that the Industrial core provides 100% ecm resistance and 75-80% damp resistance while active. This proposal does mean that Rorquals will be more vulnerable after finishing the last rock in a belt and while moving, but our current impression is that those limited periods of extra vulnerability have the potential to generate interesting gameplay. It’s also worth remembering that the Rorqual has a very significant set of defenses even without the PANIC module.
We are very interested in hearing suggestions of alternate concepts for solving these problems, but I'd caution against assuming that this question is a particularly simple one.


Seriously?
I am sorry but this just makes you sound really stupid
An EASIER way to avoid all of this was to just not rorquals to be able to fit those modules instead of putting in that ridiculous targeting an asteroid BS!

Edit: cynos should still be able to be used by rorquals but once you remove the others would stil fix the issues
#874 - 2017-03-17 21:58:03 UTC
Oh and also you NEED to reduce the Industrial Core time from 5 minutes to 1 minute
Goonswarm Federation
#875 - 2017-03-19 07:32:13 UTC
mayby remove the drones and put Giant mining laser on the rorq instead with like 20-25 km range would make it easier for ccp to regulate than calculate drone speeds yield etc then remove the core it self and just give the bonusses to the ship per lvl instead
O.U.Z.O. Alliance
#876 - 2017-03-19 14:55:24 UTC
bettepus wrote:
mayby remove the drones and put Giant mining laser on the rorq instead with like 20-25 km range would make it easier for ccp to regulate than calculate drone speeds yield etc then remove the core it self and just give the bonusses to the ship per lvl instead


Oh why thank you so much for that idea!

Now all I need to do to harass goons is to go to the anomalies and shoot the drones, leave and profit!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Goonswarm Federation
#877 - 2017-03-21 01:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghillie Troll Askold
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can now go to hisec and make more ISK/hr running incursions in a 500m battleship than in a 10b rorqual no? And it's probably safer too.
Gallente Federation
#878 - 2017-03-21 09:46:33 UTC
Ghillie Troll Askold wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can now go to hisec and make more ISK/hr running incursions in a 500m battleship than in a 10b rorqual no? And it's probably safer too.


Well to be fair mining is mostly AFK anyway.
You just sit there scooping up asteroids with 2 fingers in an orifice (I'll pick "Nose" this time)
Apocalypse Now.
#879 - 2017-03-22 15:32:48 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
Ghillie Troll Askold wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can now go to hisec and make more ISK/hr running incursions in a 500m battleship than in a 10b rorqual no? And it's probably safer too.


Well to be fair mining is mostly AFK anyway.
You just sit there scooping up asteroids with 2 fingers in an orifice (I'll pick "Nose" this time)


Which explains why your an absolute booger eating moron of a window licker. You have no idea what your talking about.
Goonswarm Federation
#880 - 2017-03-22 15:36:40 UTC
Ghillie Troll Askold wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can now go to hisec and make more ISK/hr running incursions in a 500m battleship than in a 10b rorqual no? And it's probably safer too.


LOL if you think CCP cares about that.
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