Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
 

Fleet formations

Author
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-03-20 21:28:20 UTC
How come that this game has beeing going for so many years without fleet formations??

it would be so cool if we could stay in formations when we are in fleets. something V shape or L, just like you see planes in real life

Caldari State
#2 - 2017-03-20 21:31:41 UTC
Tom Danske wrote:
How come that this game has beeing going for so many years without fleet formations??

it would be so cool if we could stay in formations when we are in fleets. something V shape or L, just like you see planes in real life



It's not practical in space though - your allies create a cone of 'no shoot' behind them. Unless you're a jerk who shoots their friends.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2017-03-20 21:36:05 UTC
Please explain how your average fleet, which has anything up to a dozen different hulls, all with different pilot skills, would stay in a formation. Are we talking everyone moving at the speed of the slowest, and every current positioning and anchoring strategy being removed outright, or something else entirely?

Why would you want your logi, tackle, dictors, ceptors, probers and ewar to fly at the same speed in the same way as your battleships, for instance?
#4 - 2017-03-20 21:36:18 UTC
Shots travel through objects, ships that collide take no damage and all ships fire for full effect in all directions. Fleet formations are utterly pointless in eve.

If there was benefit to them, we'd fly them manually,

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Caldari State
#5 - 2017-03-20 22:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tom Danske
http://prnt.sc/emfs8t

Well this dont look like a formation fleet.. its more like a pile of ships smashed together
maby its pointless but its still a beautyful game, but looks strange with all this ships on top of each other
Evictus.
#6 - 2017-03-21 08:01:53 UTC
Ships orbit an anchor. The anchor maintains position for the fleet. Other pilots can focus on the job the fleet is intended to do.
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2017-03-21 12:48:08 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


If there was benefit to them, we'd fly them manually,


We would definitely try but achieving it is a whole different point.
#8 - 2017-03-21 14:08:02 UTC
The short version first so you can read and move on.
There is no practical or combat related reason to have formations in EvE so we do not have them because looking cool in your formation as you fly to your destruction in not a valid reason for CCP to waste dev time working on them.

In real life computers do not maintain formations, the people piloting the ships do by communicating with the others about what and when they are going to do something. Consider this your challenge as well, can you and your mates hold a formation while engaging in combat?

More useless stuff because I want to.

In real life combat ships at sea travel in a formation designed to maximize their ability to detect submarines and to protect the primary ship in the fleet which is usually but not always a carrier. Secondary to this is to maintain spacing to maximize every ships ability to do the job assigned. We do not have submarines in EvE, what we have is cloaked ships since they cannot be detected until they un-cloak there is little reason and no need to fly in fleets to maximize our ability to detect them. As Daichi points out since our shots fired or those fired at us will travel right through any ship they were not targeted at there is even less reason for formations.

In real life fleet formations at sea break apart as each sub group within the fleet does what they are assigned to do, as a result a travel formation rarely survives initial contact with the enemy.

Bombers in real life.
In WW II the bombers flew in a specific formation that maximized their ability to bring their machine guns to bear on enemy aircraft while minimizing the potential for damage to another aircraft in the formation.

They flew in formation because it was not uncommon for navigation instruments to fail or the navigator to be shot and wounded or killed, by being in formation there were always other aircraft they could follow to the target or back home again. In EvE we do not have navigation instruments to break or navigators to be killed so there is no reason to fly in a formation.

Modern bomber aircraft do not fly in formations, they are for all practical purposes on their own so they are not relevant.

Fighter aircraft will travel in a formation however when they enter into the combat area that formation will break apart with each aircraft and their wing man going off in their own directions as required by the attack plan and the situation. In fact modern fighters are at much greater risk of being shot down if they are in a formation, while radar may not be able to detect a single aircraft a formation of them would show up much more easily.

Caldari State
#9 - 2017-03-21 16:05:12 UTC
Hmm... Well, actually...

Use-case (I don't care which formation is used):

A squad consisting of:
1 command dessie, 3 assault frigates, 3 logi frigates, and 2 ewar cruisers.

The command dessie is the anchor, followed by the cruisers (basically the cruisers are in squad member 1 and 2), followed by your AFs in 3 4 and 5, followed by your logi frigs in 6, 7, 8.

The ships "anchor" which tells the computer to match guidance, which will tell all ships to set their max speed to that of the anchor as well as match their flight vector each server tick. The anchor must then be aware of what's in his squad. Any member of the squad can simply resume manual piloting of their ship which would automatically remove the speed limitations.

Here's where it gets interesting, if the command dessie is head-shotted, the formation auto-adjusts to the next squad member (in this case one of your ewar cruisers), which reduces the impact of head-shotting. Perhaps this is desirable, perhaps it is not.

When it's time to engage and your frigates don't want to be moving 350m/s, they simply take manual control and orbit their target or kite as per SOPs for their fit.


It's a big round-about way of having a "floating" anchor. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad. But it would certainly look cool.
#10 - 2017-03-21 16:57:42 UTC
This has been suggested a lot and there's just no practical reason to implement something like this. It would just increase server load when used for no actual benefit.

Besides, if some advantage to more precise positioning was implemented then it shouldn't be automated, positioning should be something based on manual input rather than some automated system that makes you have to do even less to fly the ship.
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2017-03-21 17:54:59 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Hmm... Well, actually...

Use-case (I don't care which formation is used):

A squad consisting of:
1 command dessie, 3 assault frigates, 3 logi frigates, and 2 ewar cruisers.

The command dessie is the anchor, followed by the cruisers (basically the cruisers are in squad member 1 and 2), followed by your AFs in 3 4 and 5, followed by your logi frigs in 6, 7, 8.

~snip~



Let me just preface this by saying that I am not an FC, but I have a hell of a lot of experience in fights.

The assault frigs might orbit the anchor, if they're hawks or something snipey. The logi will be probably 20-30km away from the anchor, orbiting thier own anchor who is maintaining position with the dps boats between them and the hostiles. The ewar is situational, long range jams or paints will be on the logi anchor, points and webs will be on the dos anchor.


You do not, under almost any circumstances, want your logi on your DPS anchor. In a small gang like that you're -probably- going to have your dps orbiting your anchor with propmods on too. If you have your fast moving logi and assfrigs matching speed and direction with a slower, fatter destroyer then they are not going to be speed tanking at all, which is going to make them easier to kill.

A small gang using your formation and a small gang in equal ships with an equally skilled FC and pilots using current eve tactics is only ever going to end with the current system winning.
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-03-21 19:40:56 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

Let me just preface this by saying that I am not an FC, but I have a hell of a lot of experience in fights.

The assault frigs might orbit the anchor, if they're hawks or something snipey. The logi will be probably 20-30km away from the anchor, orbiting thier own anchor who is maintaining position with the dps boats between them and the hostiles. The ewar is situational, long range jams or paints will be on the logi anchor, points and webs will be on the dos anchor.


You do not, under almost any circumstances, want your logi on your DPS anchor. In a small gang like that you're -probably- going to have your dps orbiting your anchor with propmods on too. If you have your fast moving logi and assfrigs matching speed and direction with a slower, fatter destroyer then they are not going to be speed tanking at all, which is going to make them easier to kill.

A small gang using your formation and a small gang in equal ships with an equally skilled FC and pilots using current eve tactics is only ever going to end with the current system winning.


I agree entirely that such a formation in such a fleet in the middle of a fight would be suicide. Which was why I specifically mentioned the frigates taking manual control when it was time to engage.

Different fleet comps need different things, for example Cerbs, Petes, and other kitey crap need to keep-at-range from their anchor so that the FC can warp them all to a ping that he has aligned to... anyone orbiting instead of keeping at range is gonna get left behind and quite possibly end up tackled. Having a formation would mitigate this. "Get good" is also a good way to mitigate that of course.

Moving your fleet in squads would help to decentralize things. I'm not saying that's useful in present mechanics, because a giant ball of ships is more useful, but if they ever make diverse fleets a thing and get rid of alpha fleets (I have a thread for that at this very moment) or if they make ship bumping more extreme (imagine 50 HACs playing a permanent game of MWD bowling just by trying to anchor up), then formations would absolutely come into play.

At the moment, as said in my previous post, it's useful for nothing more than having the "anchor" be pre-determined by their location in the squad. And looking cool.
#13 - 2017-06-16 16:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Octavian Nero Gaius
Please please please YES!

Fleet Formations would be so welcome. First off, let's be real it would take a few extra seconds to lock your target if you are in a massive blob like a ball of anacondas. I think it could be reasonable to add a targeting penalty if grouped to close together while trying to fire, thus promoting the use of proper fleet formations.

Not to mention how this would help a viewer like myself who got intrigued by the massive fleet battles and stories of alliance warfare, but wishes the battles could be viewed in a cleaner manor. My suggestion was a Total war rome 2 style "Cinematic Camera" that zooms and locks above the unit showing it's perspective in combat. This could be applied to the various ships and allow for cinematic footage for promotion and recruitment of new players into the world that is EVE.

Thoughts?
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-06-16 17:32:17 UTC
It remains functionally useless, although I admit it would "look cool" to have a squad of frigates in formation.

Whether or not there is a targeting penalty, you would have to make it absolutely crippling to outweight the benefits of anchoring. With anchoring the FC can warp his whole fleet out (by making sure the anchor stays aligned to a safe/whathaveyou) and not rely on special individuals to align their own ships.

ASSUMING "incentives" were offered for fleets, I'd rather see something like frigates being able to link their shields together. I am not advocating this as it would be horribly OP, but something that offers incentive rather than penalty will encourage players to utilize it rather than ignore the downsides.
#15 - 2017-06-16 22:30:24 UTC
Keeping formation would likely mean the fc flying peoples ships for them. Another reason not to do it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

#16 - 2017-06-17 01:30:28 UTC
I'd find a more nuanced sphere formation to be pretty welcome. It could be done with the addition of a single variable.


Basically, instead of having a 20km or so warp sphere, have a variable radius mechanic.

If you weighted the radius to ship mass, you could sort ships that way. You might have an inner sphere comprised of heavier ships, and an outer shell comprised of lighter, more maneuverable ships.

Conversely, large hulls tend to need more room to prevent visually unwelcome clumping. *snip* comment about travel system *snip*

It could also be a mass independent warp option selectable by the user. They could not control where they land, but how far from the target, and not just in a strait line from it.

Another possibility is that "warp accuracy" could be an allowance that offsets minimum time or velocity associated with getting up to warp. Objects like warp core stabilizers (or even destabilizers) could modify these values.

It would be interesting to see CCP play around with large volumes of space in a tactical context, but I doubt it would ever be considered.
#17 - 2017-06-17 01:38:35 UTC
Another suggestion I had was to make the bubble (Forgive me I don't know the exact name, believe it's the interdiction bubble) less pronounced. Perhaps making it still visible to have a visual indicator that it is present or not, but less so that the battle is still visible more clearly.

Often, we see several bubbles and cannot makeout what is going on in the engagement. Veterans may not see this as a problem, but I enjoy watching engagements. It's the reason I played Total War rome 2 and used the cinematic camera to watch my soldiers engage in hand to hand combat, to watch my siege batteries smash against the massive walls of Carthage and much more.

I am a content creator as well, and I would really like some better tools to create amazing content and showcase these fantastic ship designs, and the impressive world of space. I believe we can get people interested in space exploration through games of this magnitude, and perhaps, begin our own plans for space colonization. I want EVE to get bigger, for as many people as possible to enjoy it. Real world skills can be learned if you apply them.
I Aim To Misbehave
#18 - 2017-06-17 03:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
I agree with the suggestion and wonder myself why formations are not implemented. Mechanically speaking, there should be a "join formation" command in your context menu which will then move your ship inito formation with the 'anchor'. The chosen anchoring ship woulf have a pallete of different ship formations which would automatically assign ships into formation positions based on their size and function. The maximum speed of the formation would be governed by the slowest ship so it would guarantee position.

This process would be a more efficient form of anchoring. Unlike anchoring, it would guarantee allignment - such that the anchor can align the entire fleet and guarantee a successful fleet warp during disengagements. It would also prefent the bumping which occurs with anchoring, and give the FC much greater control over ship positions. With the selectable use of 'light lead', 'heavy lead', spherical and wall formations. With this level of control the FC can create open formations to mitigate AoE damage, or create a standoff formation with light screening ships, or use a tight formation to keep everything close and centralised.

+1 this suggestion and hope that it is implemented.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 - 2017-06-19 04:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeryn Maricadie
Old Pervert wrote:
It remains functionally useless, although I admit it would "look cool" to have a squad of frigates in formation.

Whether or not there is a targeting penalty, you would have to make it absolutely crippling to outweight the benefits of anchoring. With anchoring the FC can warp his whole fleet out (by making sure the anchor stays aligned to a safe/whathaveyou) and not rely on special individuals to align their own ships.

ASSUMING "incentives" were offered for fleets, I'd rather see something like frigates being able to link their shields together. I am not advocating this as it would be horribly OP, but something that offers incentive rather than penalty will encourage players to utilize it rather than ignore the downsides.

This exists already, it's called spider tanking.

The OP' s suggestion of V type formations and stuff that looks pretty would actually gimp a fleet in EVE. Though some more functionality for an FC to be able to do things like align a wing in any direction would be nice.
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2017-06-20 01:28:31 UTC
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
Please please please YES!

Fleet Formations would be so welcome. First off, let's be real it would take a few extra seconds to lock your target if you are in a massive blob like a ball of anacondas. I think it could be reasonable to add a targeting penalty if grouped to close together while trying to fire, thus promoting the use of proper fleet formations.

Not to mention how this would help a viewer like myself who got intrigued by the massive fleet battles and stories of alliance warfare, but wishes the battles could be viewed in a cleaner manor. My suggestion was a Total war rome 2 style "Cinematic Camera" that zooms and locks above the unit showing it's perspective in combat. This could be applied to the various ships and allow for cinematic footage for promotion and recruitment of new players into the world that is EVE.

Thoughts?

Single-target damage clouds caused by missed shots would also fix blobbing. Can't hit a speed-tanking frig with 800mm arty, but you sure as hell can hit a flock of them all clustered on an anchor.
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