EVE Fiction

 
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The CCP storyline is not your friend.

Author
PANCAKES.
#1 - 2017-03-27 08:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
Better explanation below:

Also, Hamish, you tried to tell me this 4 or 5 years ago, and I blew you off. This is my apology. P
#2 - 2017-03-27 19:54:23 UTC
Come on dude, seeing people overreacting and getting butthurt over their fictional side is as fun as pew-pewing spaceships. So you go Mr Falcon. ^.^

PS
where is my 4 way war CCP and then a civil war inside those 4, huh?
PANCAKES.
#3 - 2017-03-28 01:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Come on dude, seeing people overreacting and getting butthurt over their fictional side is as fun as pew-pewing spaceships. So you go Mr Falcon. ^.^

PS
where is my 4 way war CCP and then a civil war inside those 4, huh?


You know what, you're right. I hope some people got enjoyment from seeing me butthurt. So I'll blank the above post.

But that is kinda my point. Falcon has no way BUT to make butthurt, and in my opinion, here is why:

In a competitive game like Eve Online, you derive enjoyment from winning. How do you know if you've won? Well, you put effort forward and achieved your objective. How do you know if you lost? Well, you didn't achieve your objective.

So, if your RP side wins in the story, you feel great for a moment, but it isn't truly a "win", because it was Falcon that did it, not you. CCP made the storyline. But if your side is the one that lost, you feel that just like if it was your own failure, because perception of loss doesn't need to involve effort. There's a reason "well, you tried" is such an empty comfort.

So, when RPing a side, Falcon is always going to end up screwing you. And it's always going to appear that he is, especially if he's fair. I don't think he is fair, in the fictional treatment of the sides, but hey, why should he be? It's his (well, CCP's game), not mine. He's the artist, not me. If I hate it so much, I can **** off. And, for a little while, because I was a crybaby, I did.

That little realization revealed to me that complaining about toxic players and RP doesn't do much when one is the toxic RP. And, then, thinking about it, I realized that my best moments in EvE were, and have been, the interpersonal and exploding things moments. In other words, the EvE storyline is not your friend, or even your enemy. It's fluff, literally. It gives flavor. It's not what makes the game fun, at least not for me.

So, because I'm a moron, I was walking away from gameplay I enjoyed, because of a storyline that was only ever intended as instrumental to the enjoyment of the game, not the core of it. Oops.

From this perspective, now, getting involved in RP, at least factional RP, was probably a pretty big mistake. I spent a few years of play getting no better (ok, a little better) at the game, and not doing much of what I enjoyed, trying to "win" something that couldn't be won and that other people told me I was taking too seriously. Oops again.

I got two of my friends to try EvE, or at least told them about it. One of them, IIRC, I tried to get into Caldari loyalism. He's gone. The other? Well, he went into EvE Uni, and eventually got me to join Pancakes (I was in Horde before). I think he'll be here for years.

EvE isn't supposed to be about the Empires. I don't even think it's about stories of alliances and grudges. EvE is at its best when, for example, I'm flying in my first cruiser nano-gang ever last night, and having a blast even though we didn't kill much (and I lost a Phantasm on an accel gate because I'm stupid, lol). It's a really great wide-open sandbox with tons of fun things to do, and I think that CCP have done great work to improve the game (Citadels are awesome, btw).
#4 - 2017-03-28 06:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Eve Online is always the most fun when large numbers of Empyrean put their heads together to figure out the best way to screw that other large groups of Empyrean.

It's why I roleplay my character as having no true loyalty to his nation of birth. So that I can avoid getting into that status quo nonsense and just do actual capsuleer shite and pretending to be someone whose job is to do actual capsuleer shite.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

PANCAKES.
#5 - 2017-03-28 14:39:48 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Eve Online is always the most fun when large numbers of Empyrean put their heads together to figure out the best way to screw that other large groups of Empyrean.

It's why I roleplay my character as having no true loyalty to his nation of birth. So that I can avoid getting into that status quo nonsense and just do actual capsuleer shite and pretending to be someone whose job is to do actual capsuleer shite.


Yes, I found your "it's just a job, and I can criticize my employer" attitude quite interesting, when I was still reading the IGS much. For all I know, the toxicity in the RP community has died down, and I'm full of ****. But I'm not eager to contribute to it again.

I think some of the best stories have come out of people writing character stories, as Ciarente used to do. I used to think that was wishy-washy and niche. Now I think it was wisdom.
#6 - 2017-03-28 17:46:20 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Come on dude, seeing people overreacting and getting butthurt over their fictional side is as fun as pew-pewing spaceships. So you go Mr Falcon. ^.^

PS
where is my 4 way war CCP and then a civil war inside those 4, huh?


You know what, you're right. I hope some people got enjoyment from seeing me butthurt. So I'll blank the above post.

But that is kinda my point. Falcon has no way BUT to make butthurt, and in my opinion, here is why:

In a competitive game like Eve Online, you derive enjoyment from winning. How do you know if you've won? Well, you put effort forward and achieved your objective. How do you know if you lost? Well, you didn't achieve your objective.

So, if your RP side wins in the story, you feel great for a moment, but it isn't truly a "win", because it was Falcon that did it, not you. CCP made the storyline. But if your side is the one that lost, you feel that just like if it was your own failure, because perception of loss doesn't need to involve effort. There's a reason "well, you tried" is such an empty comfort.

So, when RPing a side, Falcon is always going to end up screwing you. And it's always going to appear that he is, especially if he's fair. I don't think he is fair, in the fictional treatment of the sides, but hey, why should he be? It's his (well, CCP's game), not mine. He's the artist, not me. If I hate it so much, I can **** off. And, for a little while, because I was a crybaby, I did.

That little realization revealed to me that complaining about toxic players and RP doesn't do much when one is the toxic RP. And, then, thinking about it, I realized that my best moments in EvE were, and have been, the interpersonal and exploding things moments. In other words, the EvE storyline is not your friend, or even your enemy. It's fluff, literally. It gives flavor. It's not what makes the game fun, at least not for me.

So, because I'm a moron, I was walking away from gameplay I enjoyed, because of a storyline that was only ever intended as instrumental to the enjoyment of the game, not the core of it. Oops.

From this perspective, now, getting involved in RP, at least factional RP, was probably a pretty big mistake. I spent a few years of play getting no better (ok, a little better) at the game, and not doing much of what I enjoyed, trying to "win" something that couldn't be won and that other people told me I was taking too seriously. Oops again.

I got two of my friends to try EvE, or at least told them about it. One of them, IIRC, I tried to get into Caldari loyalism. He's gone. The other? Well, he went into EvE Uni, and eventually got me to join Pancakes (I was in Horde before). I think he'll be here for years.

EvE isn't supposed to be about the Empires. I don't even think it's about stories of alliances and grudges. EvE is at its best when, for example, I'm flying in my first cruiser nano-gang ever last night, and having a blast even though we didn't kill much (and I lost a Phantasm on an accel gate because I'm stupid, lol). It's a really great wide-open sandbox with tons of fun things to do, and I think that CCP have done great work to improve the game (Citadels are awesome, btw).


Yeah, I get what you saying, I don't agree with everything you are saying but I think I get your point.

The fun is not seeing people acting irrationally / getting butthurt (altho there is some fun in that too), but that all of it is over a fictional problem that does not exist and most of the time could not be solved. It's hilarious seeing reasonable and smart people getting upset over literally nothing.

I actually never got the toxic RP argument, reason is toxicity breeds conflict and conflict is fun. This shouldn't be confused with OOC toxicity tho, that thing just break groups. One thing is to help people acquire information and explain the basics OOC to have an IC confrontation with them in space or on the forums and completely the other one is to carry that IC drama in OOC environment.

My view of eve faction loyalties RP was always as a Sisyphus endeavor, no matter how hard you try that ******* rock always falls down, sometimes on you and there is a certain degree of fun in it imo. Also "your" faction shouldn't be confused with your character, it's the faction who is being screwed or f up not your character, again just imo.

A game is just a game and it's not fun when you aren't having any, RP is a spice that you can add or not in the end to your main experience.

Have fun and good luck dude.
#7 - 2017-03-28 21:51:17 UTC
What the hell is going on in this thread.
#8 - 2017-03-28 22:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kolodi Ramal
Vikarion wrote:
EvE isn't supposed to be about the Empires. I don't even think it's about stories of alliances and grudges. EvE is at its best when, for example, I'm flying in my first cruiser nano-gang ever last night, and having a blast even though we didn't kill much (and I lost a Phantasm on an accel gate because I'm stupid, lol).

Cool story bro. (Actually I am glad you figured out where your fun is. Go for it! Smile)

I'm sure you understand, though, that not everyone wants to play that way. What you describe as the best EVE is not my best EVE, your solution is not my solution, etc. There's room for all of the different playstyles, and/but/so I'm wary of such declarative statements on this subject--statements that also strike me as fatalistic toward the lore, storyline, and RP.
#9 - 2017-03-28 23:36:17 UTC
I certainly didn't think in 2011 that I would one day enjoy RP, nor did I think in 2013 that I would one day enjoy industry. Kind of a quirk of this game I guess, fun hiding in unexpected places as our interests ebb and flow. That the formal backdrop of New Eden remains indifferent to our efforts as players and characters is not surprising; "what's past is prologue." We can use it as a jumping off point for our stories, on rare occasion influencing the stage in meagre fashion, but mostly we can only influence each other. We aren't bound to that history as we are to the community of players, but on a personal level, I like characters and the metaplot provides them with context. It's up to me to succeed or fail at engaging others with that character.

I'm probably just echoing the others here.

In any case, OP, I'm glad that you're still around and enjoying EVE how you want to enjoy it. As a side note, I hope that you continue your other fiction projects.
PANCAKES.
#10 - 2017-03-29 03:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
EvE isn't supposed to be about the Empires. I don't even think it's about stories of alliances and grudges. EvE is at its best when, for example, I'm flying in my first cruiser nano-gang ever last night, and having a blast even though we didn't kill much (and I lost a Phantasm on an accel gate because I'm stupid, lol).

Cool story bro. (Actually I am glad you figured out where your fun is. Go for it! Smile)

I'm sure you understand, though, that not everyone wants to play that way. What you describe as the best EVE is not my best EVE, your solution is not my solution, etc. There's room for all of the different playstyles, and/but/so I'm wary of such declarative statements on this subject--statements that also strike me as fatalistic toward the lore, storyline, and RP.


Oh, dude, this is totally just me, and me reflecting on some of the toxicity (including my own) I saw in the RP community last time I was in it. Which was a while ago. For all I know, I was the entire source of it, with complaining included.

But, uh, I kinda don't think so. I've seen this from the old days of chatsubo until the last time when people were complaining about...I'd better not say.

Anyway, this thread isn't too serious. I'm not saying don't do your own thing. And don't take me for a CCP Falcon hater, anymore, anyway. I think he's done far more good than harm, and I'm not sure he's done harm.

The State sure seems to hate freighters, tho. P

But I will say that a lot of the toxicity seems to actually create real personal rifts, without actual fun fights. And the further I've gotten away from that, the more fun I've had.
#11 - 2017-03-29 06:10:45 UTC
For those people like me who liked the original OP, Eve-Search and Chribba ARE our friend, unlike the storyline and V.

http://eve-search.com/thread/515354-1#1

Vikarion also has a damn good point that I agree with.
PANCAKES.
#12 - 2017-03-29 06:41:57 UTC
Myxx wrote:
For those people like me who liked the original OP, Eve-Search and Chribba ARE our friend, unlike the storyline and V.

http://eve-search.com/thread/515354-1#1

Vikarion also has a damn good point that I agree with.


Yeah, but keep in mind, I was trying to be intentionally funny and provocative, things I don't always do well. I'm a pretty **** writer, as of yet. P

I do think that CCP might be using the storyline to preach, a bit, but seriously, what are they going to do, have the Space Slaver Catholics and Nazis (I didn't call the Caldari that, that was CCP's CEO, IIRC), win? Geez, just wait until Buzzfeed or some other clickbait outfit gets ahold of that!

What really sticks in my mind is this: how much of a **** I was to some RPers, just because they were on the other side (Gallente), and, how much even more some were to me, and how I reacted to it. That wasn't fun, that wasn't awesome, that was pure, unadulterated suck.

But thanks. Big smile
#13 - 2017-03-29 10:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
As you may have noticed, choosing an existing side will yield you effects that Falcon will probably bestrow upon you.

So isn't it better to choose the side that Falcon never heard of and never will be glad to pick up?

Just a bit of imagination would be needed to create an independent wing that fights and wins on the chosen frontier. When fleshed out in the game, you give assets to corpmates and they pursue an idea. The leader leads by example and fights on the front line for the cause. Fill cargo bays with minerals and produce cruisers for the army, it does not matter what army. You can win this war no matter which side wins.
PANCAKES.
#14 - 2017-03-29 14:39:43 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
As you may have noticed, choosing an existing side will yield you effects that Falcon will probably bestrow upon you.

So isn't it better to choose the side that Falcon never heard of and never will be glad to pick up?

Just a bit of imagination would be needed to create an independent wing that fights and wins on the chosen frontier. When fleshed out in the game, you give assets to corpmates and they pursue an idea. The leader leads by example and fights on the front line for the cause. Fill cargo bays with minerals and produce cruisers for the army, it does not matter what army. You can win this war no matter which side wins.


That's definitely a possibility. However, there's also the CVA approach, where you pay lip service to one empire and then essentially go do what you said (pursue what you want).

That idea was actually kinda what Hamish Grayson proposed to me at one point, but I was too pig-headed and grudge-bearing to try it. I think it could have been a lot of fun, and I'm kicking myself for not doing so.

In proof of your statement, however, I once did some wormhole exploration with Soter. It was pretty fun. I could have done a lot more of it, before wormholes became sneaky null-sec (that's a joke!), but instead...*RP*. Was that RP worth losing out on having fun?

Well, I know that Saide Riordan and Aleksylva Paradox seemed to have a much better time with their RP of your description (in a wormhole) than I did in Caldari FW. So, yes, I suppose you are right.
Didja Mizmi
#15 - 2017-03-30 20:38:59 UTC
I have just one question. What point was it that Vikarion was claiming CCP was preaching?
PANCAKES.
#16 - 2017-03-31 05:18:48 UTC
Didja Mizmi wrote:
I have just one question. What point was it that Vikarion was claiming CCP was preaching?


What? Oh, you mean the political point? Nothing fancy, just democracy, human rights, etc = good, "we don't actually approve of slavery in RL", that sort of thing. Things I generally agree with in real life.

My point was that if CCP had, say, the Amarr Empire be the fairest and bestest in the land, so to speak, people might start asking if they are, uh, "glorifying" slavery and theocracy. Similar problem with the State. If I were in CCP's shoes, in today's touchy climate, I might not have as much artistic integrity as they have had.

But that does mean that if you are a State loyalist, and really attached to your faction "winning" (I'm sure you can think of some like I was), you're essentially kicking yourself in the cojones. I mean, don't let me stop you if you genuinely do enjoy that. P

As to why I wouldn't aim this more widely, well, do you really think it would be in good form for a former State RPer to start preaching (yeah, hey, if I use it for CCP, gotta be fair, right?) to his former RP enemies about the futility of putting fake causes and grudges over pewpew? Wouldn't that seem a bit...I dunno, disingenuous?

#17 - 2017-03-31 12:24:41 UTC
Vikarion wrote:

My point was that if CCP had, say, the Amarr Empire be the fairest and bestest in the land, so to speak, people might start asking if they are, uh, "glorifying" slavery and theocracy. Similar problem with the State. If I were in CCP's shoes, in today's touchy climate, I might not have as much artistic integrity as they have had.


Do you even fiction bro?

This is a game, telling a story that is not real. There is no "gloryfiying" a behaviour by talking about it. Only people with psychic suffering and people not used to literacy mix the line between the fiction of a story and the reality.

Like the World of Darkness, they chose to tell mature stories that show how much gray exists on the actions of human beings, for good or bad. This is not a child´s game, no wonder the avarage age of the players was 33 or something.

And todays touchy climate, what do you mean by that? Are you are talking about the claiming of rights by groups of people that don´t accept being stomped upon anymore?

You can talk about subjects in a manner in a tasteful way or you can talk in a way that opresses people. There are plenty of lore touching very delicate issues like abuse, necrophfily, torture, murder and so on, and the mature audience can handle it. Nothing like the misoginy of the term "**** cage" that used(?) to be said about the pre combat on a POS.

Anyway, this kind of thinking is for people who needs to read more books and train their thought patterns to differentiate reality from fiction.

As Aristoteles said 'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.'

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

PANCAKES.
#18 - 2017-03-31 16:16:41 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:

This is a game, telling a story that is not real. There is no "gloryfiying" a behaviour by talking about it. Only people with psychic suffering and people not used to literacy mix the line between the fiction of a story and the reality.


You know that, and I know that, but does Kotaku or another click-bait site care about that? Don't confuse perception with reality, and it is perception that would harm the game, not reality.

Also, I would note that fiction is often assumed to have a point, whether or not it does.

Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
And todays touchy climate, what do you mean by that? Are you are talking about the claiming of rights by groups of people that don´t accept being stomped upon anymore?


I'm not sure who you are referring to here, or what rights are being suppressed in regards to EvE fiction. I think you may be inferring ideas that I do not have in mind when I am talking about not pinning yourself to EvE fiction.

Or, to put it another way, you seem eager to demonstrate some sort of virtue by inferring prejudice where there is none, and thus providing a wonderful example of the sort of thing I believe that CCP Falcon would be very wise to be wary of.

QED. Thank you. Big smile

Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
You can talk about subjects in a manner in a tasteful way or you can talk in a way that opresses people. There are plenty of lore touching very delicate issues like abuse, necrophfily, torture, murder and so on, and the mature audience can handle it. Nothing like the misoginy of the term "**** cage" that used(?) to be said about the pre combat on a POS.


Well, can they? Or, more to the point, can I?

Games are a different sort of fiction for us apes, which involves placing ourselves within the narrative framework. I suppose you could characterize this as a question of how far one should go with that. I was in a bit too deep, in my opinion, and now I am proposing that skimming along the surface provides more "happiness utility".

By necessity, a game involves a certain abandonment of the distance a reader/perceptor usually has from fiction. And we pretend, sometimes, in ways that actually do reify conflicts into actuality.

Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Anyway, this kind of thinking is for people who needs to read more books and train their thought patterns to differentiate reality from fiction.

As Aristoteles said 'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.'


I think it would be impossible to be innocent of the charge that one has not read enough, so I, as I always will, plead guilty to this. Smile
#19 - 2017-03-31 16:51:58 UTC
Quote:
I'm not sure who you are referring to here, or what rights are being suppressed in regards to EvE fiction. I think you may be inferring ideas that I do not have in mind when I am talking about not pinning yourself to EvE fiction.

Or, to put it another way, you seem eager to demonstrate some sort of virtue by inferring prejudice where there is none, and thus providing a wonderful example of the sort of thing I believe that CCP Falcon would be very wise to be wary of.

QED. Thank you. Big smile


Math background or just friends with latim ?

It was a question about your statement "today's touchy climate". What would this be?

Quote:
Well, can they? Or, more to the point, can I?


That is for you to know. Some people read a book and enjoy the make believe, some people read it as truth and try to act on it. The focus here is the person, not the text. The text is just a bunch of characters forming sentences.


Quote:
Games are a different sort of fiction for us apes, which involves placing ourselves within the narrative framework. I suppose you could characterize this as a question of how far one should go with that. I was in a bit too deep, in my opinion, and now I am proposing that skimming along the surface provides more "happiness utility".


Define "far" and "near".

Glad you found the balance point that suits your needs.

Quote:
By necessity, a game involves a certain abandonment of the distance a reader/perceptor usually has from fiction. And we pretend, sometimes, in ways that actually do reify conflicts into actuality.


Example ?

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

#20 - 2017-03-31 18:48:49 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:

Anyway, this kind of thinking is for people who needs to read more books and train their thought patterns to differentiate reality from fiction.

As Aristoteles said 'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.'

On the other side, what if those thoughts are really appealing to you? You may at first really consider something only as thought experiment, but sometimes idea can really get a foothold and then maybe even become a canon someday.

First I was thinking about Talocans being only one of many different ancient races, but after some time I was thinking more and more about them and making up different ideas and look what happened.

I have also an image of Talocan Headmaster suit I made in GIMP. It was just a bit of curtain at first, that folded in a strange way that grabbed my atention. Everywhere I see some pieces of Talocan stuff now. In real world. I use the real world to expand my EVE world somehow.

That piece of fanfiction is really what I am thinking should be someday expanded and even picked up by CCP. How crazy that is? 😛
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