Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Remove WCS

Author
#1 - 2017-04-18 09:48:24 UTC
Hunting FW players and realizing how many of them are pathetic stabbed plex farmers has highlighted a point I've believed for a long time: warp core stabilizers need to be removed from the game. They have two major problems, issues that are inherent to the concept of the module and can not be fixed with a mere balance pass:

1) They create negative play experiences. It's incredibly frustrating to do everything right, especially in a situation where you're hunting an unwilling target that has every advantage in trying to escape (local, d-scan, etc) if they're paying attention at all, only to watch your target warp out because they had their low slots full of WCS. Did they win the fight? No. Did they earn an escape by getting out of range/neuting my point off/etc? No. They just fit their ship so that it's impossible to tackle for a solo player (unless they're flying a HIC). So you end up wasting time trying to get to a fight when you were doomed to failure the whole time.

2) They reward terrible play. Fitting WCS means admitting that you are never going to win a fight. In addition to the penalties from the WCS itself you've wasted low slots on them instead of using those slots on modules that will help you win. And they only help you when you've already screwed up by failing to use local/d-scan/etc to be aware of a potential threat and set up your escape. So you have the textbook situation for a Darwin award in EVE: a fail-fit ship flown by a careless player. But because they've fitted the magic "get out of jail free" module they get to escape with their ship intact. Incompetence is not punished, and the player learns that continued incompetence is acceptable. They're never forced to learn to win in PvP, or to use the available tools to escape before a warp disruptor is activated against them. They just mindlessly orbit the FW beacon and warp out if anything tackles them. This is a problem.

At the very minimum WCS should have crippling penalties such that they are only ever useful for travel fits, and can never be used while engaged in any kind of PvP or PvE. No offensive modules (including analyzers, mining lasers, etc) can be activated, and a ship with WCS fitted should not count towards any FW control beacons or similar "have a ship present" effects. If you want to do anything but get from point A to point B you should not be able to fit WCS.
#2 - 2017-04-18 09:54:31 UTC
And no, "just bring more ships" is not a solution to WCS. In many of these cases we're talking about weak targets like T1 frigates, where it can be a fun 1v1 fight but bringing 2-3 (or more!) people to ensure tackle makes it a boring execution instead of a fight. And that's on top of the difficulty of coordinating multiple ships to get tackle before the target warps, having more people in local to scare them off, etc. If you can't get these fights solo then there's no point in wasting time on them.

Nor is "fit multiple points" a solution. Very few ships have enough mid slots to fit sufficient points to deal with 3+ WCS, especially if you don't want to cripple the ship in every other way. You pretty much have to use expensive faction scrams to have a realistic fit, and a 50-100 million ISK module should not be required for T1 frigate vs. T1 frigate fights.
#3 - 2017-04-18 11:14:07 UTC
You're one of those bloodthirsty twits who thinks everyone should be forced to fight, aren't you?

WCS is meant to help haulers WHO WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. All Johnny Carebear wants to do is take his stuff from Point A to Point B. He's not interested in fighting anyone, he just wants to get where he's going and drop off his cargo. WCS allows him to do that without your interference.

Stop crying about stabs and go do some real PvP instead of preying on haulers, you scumbag.
#4 - 2017-04-18 11:44:31 UTC
If you are going to remove stabs, you need to replace them with something to allow withdrawing from a fight.

A slow spool up of warp core strength that every ship can do without using modules would be an option though, as that would force everyone to commit to a fight initially, but mean that if you can't kill them in a reasonable time they can still escape. Probably with no weapon timer allowed for the spool up meaning you are on the defensive only. Or at least reduced DPS/Ewar/etc when it is spooling up, so you don't just start it going as soon as you fight to always be able to escape.
(For reasonable time I'm imagining a spool up something like 1 point per (Minute * ship size), where frigs are 1, dest 2 cruiser 3 etc. So to escape a single T1 scram would take 4 minutes for a frigate if they fired guns, or 3 minutes if they started trying to escape instantly)

@Alessienne Ellecon, WCS mainly don't help haulers since there are almost no haulers that can make effective use of them, really only DST. Since the others all are sacrificing significant cargo space for them, and all the T1 haulers are vulnerable to instant alpha also if they are carrying enough to interest gankers, so...... sorry but your argument isn't a very good one for WCS remaining. I may have argued a lot for changes to industrials in some ways, but this isn't really going to impact on haulers.
Badfellas Inc.
#5 - 2017-04-18 11:56:47 UTC
FW needs a rework to be more combat focused
Circle-Of-Two
#6 - 2017-04-18 13:02:54 UTC
Kelly Riley wrote:
FW needs a rework to be more combat focused


Sure. When they fix FW targets docking in hostile space.
And lots of other insipidly stupid issues.
Make lowsec worth living/mining/missioning/etc in. Aside from FW missions and L5's there's too much risk for low benefit.
#7 - 2017-04-18 13:12:17 UTC
There is no real argument for removing WCS.

If there is a mod for preventing warp, there needs to be one that blocks that. That's how the rock/paper/scissors of eve works.

There might be an argument for blocking WCS from FW complexes. I'd actually like every complex to be bubbled (with the edge of the bubble extending say... 10km past the maximum distance you can be from the complex center to still trigger the count down).

I'm for forced action in FW complexes... because that's what FW is about. You should be ready for PvP when you warp in to a plex. But WCS in general are fine.
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2017-04-18 13:29:11 UTC
wcs are fine as they are ,eve is about choices and fitting Your ship differently or badly is totally what eve is about as everyone should be allowed to play and fit up a ship however they want
#9 - 2017-04-18 13:35:38 UTC
WCS are a pro module that when used correctly do many marvelous things. Their primary purpose (my opinion) is to generate salty tears from guys w/out enough points fitted to their ships. If these stabbed ships upset you enough you will come up with a fit to counter them. Look into the faction scrams (3 points of scram) and things like that. I'm not saying it will be easy.

There has been quite a bit of reference over time of the negative impact that wcs are having on FW pvp. I get that. TBH it only makes sense that if you sign up for faction WARFARE you are signing up to do pvp - I get that too. I'm not solid on the mechanics with the FW sites, but I do understand that ship size limits are important to prevent one sided camping and that this makes wcs more powerful as ship size goes down.

It seems some form of adjustment to the game is needed, but I don't feel removing wcs from the game is the answer. It is such a broad stroke for shut a narrow issue. If all ships were using wcs all over Eve were avoiding pvp, then sure wonk them. The problem though is very narrowly focused, so I think a more focused fix would be in order. I don't know what that fix is (again, not a FW expert), but removing wcs isn't it.
#10 - 2017-04-18 14:42:11 UTC
OP let me keep my response short and sweet, I can elaborate later if needed.

You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand.
As a result of your complete and total failure your targets routinely get away.
Yet despite your complete and total failures you believe it is unfair that these players get away, and so in typical fashion you demand that CCP change the game so that what is currently your failures will become your wins.
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2017-04-18 14:50:34 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
And no, "just bring more ships" is not a solution to WCS. In many of these cases we're talking about weak targets like T1 frigates, where it can be a fun 1v1 fight but bringing 2-3 (or more!) people to ensure tackle makes it a boring execution instead of a fight. And that's on top of the difficulty of coordinating multiple ships to get tackle before the target warps, having more people in local to scare them off, etc. If you can't get these fights solo then there's no point in wasting time on them.

Nor is "fit multiple points" a solution. Very few ships have enough mid slots to fit sufficient points to deal with 3+ WCS, especially if you don't want to cripple the ship in every other way. You pretty much have to use expensive faction scrams to have a realistic fit, and a 50-100 million ISK module should not be required for T1 frigate vs. T1 frigate fights.


If you are not willing to fit or form up to catch your target, I wish your target also spam fofofofofo in local after escaping because you deserve it.
#12 - 2017-04-18 17:02:34 UTC
no. Cool
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-04-18 18:39:32 UTC
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
You're one of those bloodthirsty twits who thinks everyone should be forced to fight, aren't you?

WCS is meant to help haulers WHO WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. All Johnny Carebear wants to do is take his stuff from Point A to Point B. He's not interested in fighting anyone, he just wants to get where he's going and drop off his cargo. WCS allows him to do that without your interference.

Stop crying about stabs and go do some real PvP instead of preying on haulers, you scumbag.


Nobody in game should be exempt from any type of player-on-player interaction. So, yeah if Johnny Carebear is carrying stuff from point A to point B and somebody wants to shoot them...that should be allowed. Conversely Johnny is also allowed to try and evade, shoot back, etc.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#14 - 2017-04-18 19:44:42 UTC
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
You're one of those bloodthirsty twits who thinks everyone should be forced to fight, aren't you?

WCS is meant to help haulers WHO WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. All Johnny Carebear wants to do is take his stuff from Point A to Point B. He's not interested in fighting anyone, he just wants to get where he's going and drop off his cargo. WCS allows him to do that without your interference.

Stop crying about stabs and go do some real PvP instead of preying on haulers, you scumbag.


Apparently you didn't read beyond the title, because I'm primarily talking about combat ships, not haulers. I don't love WCS on haulers (it favors mindless autopiloting over careful use of scouts/the map/etc), but it's not something I care very strongly about. If WCS are nerfed so that only haulers can fit them I'll be ok with that.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you are going to remove stabs, you need to replace them with something to allow withdrawing from a fight.


There are plenty of things that allow withdrawing from a fight: ECM, neuts, having a faster ship and burning out of tackle range, etc. The problem with WCS is that they make all of these things redundant. You don't need to have a superior plan to win the ability to disengage, you just press "warp" and warp out because no single ship can tackle you.

And the problem with the "spooling up" idea is that it encourages blobbing. If the timer is short enough that it is relevant in a realistic fight then the answer is to bring more ships and kill the target before they can build enough strength to warp out. That gets you the kill, sure, but it makes the resulting execution much less interesting than a 1v1 fight.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Their primary purpose (my opinion) is to generate salty tears from guys w/out enough points fitted to their ships.


How exactly is a T1 frigate supposed to fit 3-4+ points of scram strength? Am I supposed to leave off the AB/MWD and fit nothing but scrams in my minds?

Quote:
Look into the faction scrams (3 points of scram) and things like that.


I already addressed that idea. A 50-100 million ISK faction module should not be mandatory equipment for a 1v1 fight between T1 frigates.

Donnachadh wrote:
You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand.


Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview.

Now, I have no problem with that part of the situation. A target escaping because of superior situational awareness is fine. My problem is that WCS eliminates the need to pay attention to any of those things. You don't need to spam d-scan or even pay attention to the overview. You can just sit on the warp-in beacon at 0km and press "warp" as soon as you hear the scram notification, and because you have lows full of WCS you're guaranteed to escape.
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#15 - 2017-04-18 19:44:56 UTC
op should be glade they were even nerfed

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

#16 - 2017-04-18 20:09:29 UTC
If you think they are stabbed bring a heron with +3 scrams lol.

But really, fw mechanic's are about capturing the sites more than the farmers. When he runs away, you win. If you really want a kill then put those extra scrams on. Theres also a faction frig that gets extra scram str and can get into novice sites.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2017-04-18 20:30:43 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:


Donnachadh wrote:
You have failed in every way that it is possible for you to fail in a situation where you should have had the upper hand.


Lolwut. Do you know anything about FW PvP? The target has every advantage in this situation, not the hunter. If they're spamming d-scan with a short radius they'll have plenty of advance warning of any ship warping to their site and can align out. Then if the potential threat enters the site they immediately warp out before the hunter can finish exiting warp. And even if they miss the hunter on d-scan if they're smart they're going to move away from the warp-in point so that they still have time to align out and warp even if they don't start trying until after the hunter appears on their overview.

Now, I have no problem with that part of the situation. A target escaping because of superior situational awareness is fine. My problem is that WCS eliminates the need to pay attention to any of those things. You don't need to spam d-scan or even pay attention to the overview. You can just sit on the warp-in beacon at 0km and press "warp" as soon as you hear the scram notification, and because you have lows full of WCS you're guaranteed to escape.


Maybe make it so FW players cannot fit stabs on their non-hauler ships and restrict haulers so they cannot be used in these sites.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#18 - 2017-04-18 20:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Personally I would prefer that the landing beacon double as a webbing tower and T2 large warp disruption bubble. It's easily doable and would work wonders to enhance player to player interactions. Not just FW beacons, but all non HS beacons (I'd be OK w/ HS beacons too, but would only go for that once everyone agrees how wonderfully they are performing in the non HS regions of space). These beacon scrams would be so awesome that they would over ride any nullification and MJD technology (inty/T3 I'm looking at you).

This would promote commitment from site runners and also encourage players to get to know one another better through close interaction.

You could also start by just putting this new feature on FW and SOV null beacons. My reasoning being that the W in FW means you're signing up to fight in a war and SOV null by definition means you're a tough mofo that can police his own territory. This seems plain dumb obvious.

That would fix a lot of this. Only a risk averse crybaby would oppose this universal solution.

Faction WARFARE = combat
SOV NULL = able to police ones own space

Let's get this done!
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2017-04-18 20:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Personally I would prefer that the landing beacon double as a webbing tower and T2 large warp disruption bubble. It's easily doable and would work wonders to enhance player to player interactions. Not just FW beacons, but all non HS beacons (I'd be OK w/ HS beacons too, but would only go for that once everyone agrees how wonderfully they are performing in the non HS regions of space). These beacon scrams would be so awesome that they would over ride any nullification and MJD technology (inty/T3 I'm looking at you).

This would promote commitment from site runners and also encourage players to get to know one another better through close interaction.

You could also start by just putting this new feature on FW and SOV null beacons. My reasoning being that the W in FW means you're signing up to fight in a war and SOV null by definition means you're a tough mofo that can police his own territory. This seems plain dumb obvious.

That would fix a lot of this. Only a risk averse crybaby would oppose this universal solution.

Faction WARFARE = combat
SOV NULL = able to police ones own space

Let's get this done!


I like that even better.

Edit: Well, except maybe the webbing part...unless it can be disabled by say shooting it or something.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#20 - 2017-04-18 20:52:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Personally I would prefer that the landing beacon double as a webbing tower and T2 large warp disruption bubble. It's easily doable and would work wonders to enhance player to player interactions. Not just FW beacons, but all non HS beacons (I'd be OK w/ HS beacons too, but would only go for that once everyone agrees how wonderfully they are performing in the non HS regions of space). These beacon scrams would be so awesome that they would over ride any nullification and MJD technology (inty/T3 I'm looking at you).

This would promote commitment from site runners and also encourage players to get to know one another better through close interaction.

You could also start by just putting this new feature on FW and SOV null beacons. My reasoning being that the W in FW means you're signing up to fight in a war and SOV null by definition means you're a tough mofo that can police his own territory. This seems plain dumb obvious.

That would fix a lot of this. Only a risk averse crybaby would oppose this universal solution.

Faction WARFARE = combat
SOV NULL = able to police ones own space

Let's get this done!


I like that even better.

Edit: Well, except maybe the webbing part...unless it can be disabled by say shooting it or something.



I added the webbing to help older players become acquainted with the newer breed of players that like to go fast and kite everything. It would still be possible, just not until you get out of the bubble. My thought being that really careful player could land on the beacon and run out to a kiting distance, it would just allow some time for the friendlier players to stop by and say hello.

I got this idea from the surveillance beacons. Players deploying them come in 2 flavors. The vanilla players that will let you warp in and take their surveillance loots and the Rootin tootin raspberry players that stop by and say hello and even lend some assistance when you go for their goodies. (Not to derail this great idea w/ another, but these surveillance thingerdoodles should not be deployable w/in 100km of anything. Some guys are dropping them on anoms by mistake and ruining a lot of interaction opportunities)
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