Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
 

Potential Caldari/Minmatar Faction Ideas

Author
Requiem Eternal
#1 - 2017-04-18 21:20:54 UTC
So right now the Caldari/Minmatar(C/M) racial combo is the only combination not represented for faction ships. And while it would be nice to have that combo, posting "༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give C/M Pirates" is not the most effective method to reach these ends.

One of the things I believe is hampering this is "What would C/M ships do?" Caldari ships are know for strong shield tanks, missiles, an engineered design ascetic with a focus of function. Minmatar are know for speed, guns, and a more redneck "Well, we welded some cruiser engines to a shuttle cockpit then spot welded guns to everything flat. The solar panels are duct taped and we aren't sure if there is fire control or steering!" style of design. They are both very different but the I've found one main intersecting point.

Hulls

Both have hulls. So why not make them a Hull Tank faction, something that the game currently lacks.

Now, before the mods delete this thread and drag me off to an asylum, I would like to present my outline for a C/M faction ship.


  • High numbers of slots for a ship of it's class.
  • Lower Turret/missile hard points, forcing turret/missile diversity (ie. 2 Turrets, 2 Missiles, 5 High Slots)
  • Hull makes up 50-75% of base ship HP
  • Average Agility (Will be penalized by Bulkheads)
  • Above Average Velocity
  • Above Average Mass (AB less effective)
  • Low signature radius


For ship bonuses I propose:

    Caldari
  • Local & Remote Hull repair bonus (Larger than average.)
  • Cap and Range Bonus to Remote
  • Minmatar
  • Hull Resist & HP bonus
  • Role Bonus
  • Flat damage bonus to missiles and guns
  • Able to fit two Damage Control Units


All of these provide a fast small ship that does not benefit from prop mods as much as a standard ship.
It can function as solo ship as well as a logi for "Hull Fleets"
The weapon requirements mean that it will need a large amount of skills to pilot effectively but it has a large amount of flexibility when building.
The uniform resistances of Damage Controls provide an effective omni-tank that while effective, has no fail-safe. Its all or nothing, if your tank fails you die.

Overall you would be adding a niche ship that is quick, tanky, unique, and piloted by only the completely insane.


Thank You for entertaining my insane dreams.


P.S. You could stick them in The Great Wildlands. Thukkers only have 3 stations in 101 systems. I think they can share.
Solitaire.
#2 - 2017-04-18 23:23:42 UTC
There's no gallente amarr faction either. Soe is caldari visually.
And exploration is race neutral.
Rate My Ticks
#3 - 2017-04-18 23:32:06 UTC
Um.... generally, no. There's a reason why hull tanking is done on ships able to take advantage of such buffer fits. Brutix for example, have exceedingly good durability for hulltank fits in small gang roams. Most other ships can as well.

Hull repairers? ****ing utterly worthless. You realize just how little they repair for, right? Here, have some numbers (given my skills on capital sized T2 reppers):

-Hull reps: 864GJ cost, 60sec cycle time, 2160 repair amount
-Armor Reps: 2880GJ cost, 30sec cycle time, 11520 repair amount
-Shield Reps: 2880GJ cost, 10sec cycle tyime, 8640 repair amount

The remote reps are just as disgustingly worthless:

-Remote hull: 1980/12/430
-Remote armor: 1950/12/875
-Remote shield: 2640/16/1150
Requiem Eternal
#4 - 2017-04-18 23:56:54 UTC
Krysenth wrote:
Um.... generally, no. There's a reason why hull tanking is done on ships able to take advantage of such buffer fits. Brutix for example, have exceedingly good durability for hulltank fits in small gang roams. Most other ships can as well.

Hull repairers? ****ing utterly worthless. You realize just how little they repair for, right?



I know hull tanking is worthless, hence why the ships are built for it. The bonuses can help mitigate how bad they are. Additionally two damage controls and 20% resists yields 71% resists. If they changed the hull reps to correspond to armor/shields either through bonuses or updates to the reps themselves it could work. Will it, probably not, but it could atleast be useable for PVE or PVP if you are crazy enough.


Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
There's no gallente amarr faction either. Soe is caldari visually.
And exploration is race neutral.


??
SoE is Gallentee/Amarr skills
Rate My Ticks
#5 - 2017-04-19 05:14:50 UTC
Karlos Solrak wrote:
Krysenth wrote:
Um.... generally, no. There's a reason why hull tanking is done on ships able to take advantage of such buffer fits. Brutix for example, have exceedingly good durability for hulltank fits in small gang roams. Most other ships can as well.

Hull repairers? ****ing utterly worthless. You realize just how little they repair for, right?



I know hull tanking is worthless, hence why the ships are built for it. The bonuses can help mitigate how bad they are. Additionally two damage controls and 20% resists yields 71% resists. If they changed the hull reps to correspond to armor/shields either through bonuses or updates to the reps themselves it could work. Will it, probably not, but it could atleast be useable for PVE or PVP if you are crazy enough.


Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
There's no gallente amarr faction either. Soe is caldari visually.
And exploration is race neutral.


??
SoE is Gallentee/Amarr skills

Read again. I didnt say hulltanking was useless, I said HULL REPAIRERS. Hulltanking is perfectly viable right now with the right ships that already exist. They're buffer fits.
#6 - 2017-04-19 05:28:47 UTC
Aside from the balance issues (which could be fixed by adjusting numbers), it's a stupid concept from a fluff perspective. Neither faction has anything to do with hull tanking, and hull tanking buffed to the point of being useful is really no different from shield or armor tanking. From a conceptual point of view Caldari are long-range shield tankers, while Minmatar are fast and have a little of everything across their various ship classes. If you want to create a hybrid faction you need to look at where those concepts overlap, and that brings up a few (flawed) ideas:

1) Fast shield-tanking missile boats. This would have been the obvious thing to do, right up until the balance pass where Minmatar got fast shield-tanking missile boats as their own ship line. So it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to come up with a line of faction ships that isn't just Minmatar 2.0.

2) Fast railgun ships. Fine concept in theory, using the Minmatar half to buff the Caldari snipers into the ultimate kiting ship, but speed and railgun tracking are often conflicting goals.

3) Caldari ships with Minmatar webs. Not bad in isolation, but "{faction} with Minmatar webs" has already been done twice, so there's probably not much design space left for it.

So, I don't know, maybe there's a viable concept out there somewhere, but it's a difficult problem to solve.
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-04-19 12:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Whilst it is an unusual proposal, I would hope that as there is only one chance to get this mix of factions into the game, I would hope that CCP would find something more useful to bring the wider player-base.

The idea isn't bad, Just I think there could be a better option, but what that is is hard to say. The off the wall example of Guristas ie Gila, shows how it can be done. The idea of medium drones damaging like large was great lateral thinking.

Maybe something like a chance/possibility of reflecting webs and ewar? 12.5% per applicable racial hull level? Web reflect :- minmattar, ewar reflect :- caldari?

That doesn't make the ship more powerful, but makes one think of the effects before the attacker engages. A nice PVP interaction mechanic. It would Give CCP headroom to make the ship have a good base damage and defence configuration so it was useful for PVE etc without racial bonuses making it overpowered.
#8 - 2017-04-19 13:58:03 UTC
Projectile drone combo only one not present in game

Battleship

5%gun rof and falloff per lvl 10% drone dmg and hit points per lvl

Pirate bonus

Ranged Web something per level

Limited amount of high slots (7 gun hard points 7 highs)plenty of mid/lows it is basically combat variant of bhaalgorn and with strong gun bonuses it forces ship to use em instead of neuts/vamps.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2017-04-19 14:01:33 UTC
Regardless of what the ships do, is there even a faction in the game that would be suitable to use for Cal/Min skills? Thukker are the only real candidate and they don't mesh well with the Caldari part.
#10 - 2017-04-19 19:51:10 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Projectile drone combo only one not present in game

Battleship

5%gun rof and falloff per lvl 10% drone dmg and hit points per lvl

Pirate bonus

Ranged Web something per level

Limited amount of high slots (7 gun hard points 7 highs)plenty of mid/lows it is basically combat variant of bhaalgorn and with strong gun bonuses it forces ship to use em instead of neuts/vamps.


That makes no sense for Caldari/Minmatar, neither faction is good at drones.
#11 - 2017-04-20 02:18:38 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Projectile drone combo only one not present in game

Battleship

5%gun rof and falloff per lvl 10% drone dmg and hit points per lvl

Pirate bonus

Ranged Web something per level

Limited amount of high slots (7 gun hard points 7 highs)plenty of mid/lows it is basically combat variant of bhaalgorn and with strong gun bonuses it forces ship to use em instead of neuts/vamps.


That makes no sense for Caldari/Minmatar, neither faction is good at drones.


Neither is Machariel with gallente battleship bonus for Large projectile falloff.

Ship would be unique that would be my pick over "politically correct" raven rehash.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Requiem Eternal
#12 - 2017-04-20 03:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Karlos Solrak
Mina Sebiestar wrote:


Neither is Machariel with gallente battleship bonus for Large projectile falloff.

Ship would be unique that would be my pick over "politically correct" raven rehash.



Ya, that's why I went into far left field for unique since the best idea got stolen by Mordu's Legion.
#13 - 2017-04-20 04:30:57 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Projectile drone combo only one not present in game

Battleship

5%gun rof and falloff per lvl 10% drone dmg and hit points per lvl

Pirate bonus

Ranged Web something per level

Limited amount of high slots (7 gun hard points 7 highs)plenty of mid/lows it is basically combat variant of bhaalgorn and with strong gun bonuses it forces ship to use em instead of neuts/vamps.


Cross-race ships are all pirate ships. CCP has said that pirate ships break the normal rules that other ships follow.

Web-range is a T2/T3 Minmatar thing, it's not a pirate thing - Blood Raiders pirate thing is magic Nos/Neut.

A good per-level bonus that's not been used before is increased effectiveness of anti-EW modules like TCs and SeBos.
#14 - 2017-04-20 05:42:04 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Neither is Machariel with gallente battleship bonus for Large projectile falloff.


But Minmatar do get falloff bonuses on projectiles, and Gallente do get falloff bonuses in general. Every single attribute doesn't necessarily have to be shared by both factions, but at least one of them has to have it. For example, with the Machariel its Gallente influence is pretty weak (probably because the Serpentis ships got all the good ideas) but everything about it is indisputably something Minmatar or Gallente can do. But with your hypothetical Minmatar/Caldari drone ships neither faction can do drones. So instead of a Minmatar/Caldari hybrid you've created a random ship from some other faction and thrown the Minmatar/Caldari label on it.
#15 - 2017-04-20 06:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Quote:
But Minmatar do get falloff bonuses on projectiles


Yes yes they do you couldn't be more right ,there is nothing Remotely gallente in a projectile falloff bonus further more it doesn't do hybrids nor drones and by some miracle there it is a machariel gallente(lol) minmatar ship.

Fine unique ship no one complains about i just mention another one that atm doesn't exist in game ...hell it being Starkmanir or Thukker ship is fine by me migratory they are trading caravans doing trading stuff drone tech is no technologically more difficult than any other.

I don't have any more direct idea for cal / min combo that comes to mind.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

#16 - 2017-04-20 11:07:27 UTC
Gustav Mannfred wrote:
In my opinion, thukker should be a missile faction, as we have already a projectile turret pirate faction(angel). Mordus legion is more for long range tackle. We don't have a pirate faction with dual application bonuses like serpentis at the moment

frigate:

role bnus: 300% to rocket and light missile damage

minmatar frig skill: 20% to target painter strenght
caldari frig: 15% to missile speed

2/5/3 slot layout, 2 launcher, 0 drones

cruiser:

200% to assault and heavy missile damage

minmatar cruiser: 25% to target painter strengt
caldari cruiser: 15% to missile speed

4/7/4 slot layout, 4 launcher, 0 drones

battleship:

200% to cruise missile and torpedo damage

minmatar bs: 30% to target painter strenght
caldari bs: 15% to cruise missile and torpedo speed

5/8/7 slot layout, 4 launcher, one flight of small drones

these ships should be significantly faster than angel ships, but their signature radius is much bigger than most other ships of their classes. the targeting speed is also much lower, as well as the sensor strengt, which makes them easier to jam. Their cargobay is also lower, so that they can't carry lots of ammo and cap boosters with them. The frig and cruiser don't have drones, the battleship can only launch one flight of small drones. Lastly, the damage bonuses are not applied for undersized missiles(imagine the cruiser with rapid lights and 3 target painters, it would just oneshot frigs)

their advantages are
- more pg and cpu, fitting should not be a problem
- might be the fastest ships in game at the moment
- the target painting bonus helps fleet mates too
- decent amount of dps


with this, we have another high dps pirate faction, similar to serpentis. Serpentis ships also have 2 application bonuses, one which is bound to webs and another which gets applied directly to turrets. In this case the same again. Back when the barghest was introduced, some people wanted it to be a high dps boat with 2 application bonuses, here it is


maybe upwell consortum could represent minmatar/caldari too?


I posted this already in another thread here in the forums

As for Upwell: I don't know if that is a faction actually, but it would still be nice to have ships of that faction


Here Ideas for upwell, that could also use caldari/minmatar skills:

frigate:

100% to optimal range, falloff and tracking of small hybrid turrets

caldari frig: 25% to small hybrid turret damage
minmatar frig: 7.5% to shield boost amount

3/4/3 slot layout, 2 turret slots, 1 launcher
10/10 drones

cruiser:

100% to optimal range, falloff and tracking of medium hybrid turrets

caldari cruiser: 15% to medium hybrid turret damage
minmatar cruiser: 7.5% to shield boost amount

5/6/4 slot layout, with 4 turrets
25/25 drones

battleship:

100% to optimal range, falloff and tracking of large hybrid turrets

caldari bs: 7.5% to large hybrid turret rate of fire
minmatar bs: 7.5% to shield boost amount

7/7/6 slot layout, with 6 turrets
200/125 drones


- faster than most other ships(about the same as angel), but hight mass, so ab/mwd speed isn't anything special
- high signature radius
- perfect targeting speed, but low targeting range
- decent cargo capacity
- maybe a structure hangar?
- low damage, but perfect application and more drones

Here are just 2 ideas for minmatar/caldari combinations (thukker and upwell), that make sense. Those are both factions that still don't have ships available for players.

Thukker ships could be obtained throught the thukker LP store, the same way as SOE ships are obtained
Upwell ships could either be obtained as a price for launching a certain amount of structures or from upwell mining operations, where you have to wait for the upwell industrial, that might carry these bpc's.


thukker ships do more dps than most other ships of their faction with good projection and application(similar to serpentis)
Upwell is the missing shield/hybrid turret combo. They have perfect application but don't do so much dps as the serpentis ships.

I don't know other factions that could be minmatar/caldari.

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

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