Missions & Complexes

 
 

SOE - Dagan

Author
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2017-05-01 22:49:22 UTC
Alright, so after a close call or two in the SOE arc, I've finally reached Our Man Dagan.

Currently, I know I don't have enough DPS to take him down (sitting right at 100.8 DPS Coercer, when every place I've looked has said he tanks 100), but wanted to ask a few questions about him so that I could nail down how much further to get to the point where I can solo him (such as do I need to jump to the Omen, or will switching to pulse be enough, or will it be IN crystals that do enough, etc.). Beyond that, eve-survival has his EM/Thermal resists at 85/81.3. Slightly problematic for an Amarr clone.

I do want to solo this, if at all possible, just to prove to myself that I can.

My questions now are:
1) Is the common quote of 100+ DPS before or after the resists? If after the resists, how would I go about factoring the resists into my DPS?

2) How far of a range does he have? I've seen multiple posts telling me to orbit at 500m to prevent him from being able to track, which I can do. But if I was going to stay out of range, how much distance do I need?

3) I've seen one place say that, if you can wait it out, you can drain his capacitor and make the tank more manageable. Obviously, since it's only one place, I'd like a confirmation on that.

I might have more questions later as I hear answers, but for now, this is it. Thanks!
#2 - 2017-05-02 03:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
I haven't run the SOE arc in a while, but I recall soloing it in a Catalyst (Gallente) without any problem. If you're an alpha and are locked in to Amarr, then consider a Dragoon. Seamus Donohue from EVE University ran a great video series on completing the SOE arc and he used a Dragoon against Dagan. Skip to about the 27:00 min mark for the relevant portion. Just fit an afterburner and orbit him at 500m to speed tank. Once in close, he shouldn't touch you.

1. Here's a more complete review of Dagan's ship if you want to run the numbers some more, but he tanks 100DPS after resists. That's about 75-80% uniform resists plus a repair rate of 28 HP/s (not sure if the 47% skip rate applies to Dagan - probably not). Empirically, anything over 100DPS will take him down eventually. In the above video, Seamus only had about 115DPS and got it done after several minutes. Dagan is weakest against explosive and kinetic, but his resists are pretty uniform, so use whatever damage type gives the best DPS.

2. His range is about 18k (optimal of 1.8k + 2*Falloff of 8k). You'll never get the damage application you need at that range. 500m will work just fine with an afterburner.

3. How NPCs use cap is disputed, but cap warfare is generally not effective against NPCs. His capacitor isn't going to simply drain on its own.

Just get a ship with more than 100DPS, fit an afterburner and go try it. If you orbit him at 500m, you'll tank him indefinitely. Worst case scenario is you don't have enough DPS and you warp away.
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2017-05-02 03:42:08 UTC
Excellent. I just need to switch from Beams to Pulses, and I should have the damage needed.

Thanks for your help and for the more complete stats of Dagan's ship. Yet another website to bookmark. Smile
#4 - 2017-05-02 10:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
"3. NPCs tend to have massive recharge rates (Dagan's is listed as 1000 GJ/s). His capacitor isn't going to drain."

You're reading the stats wrong on cap: the capacitor recharge rate is not how much you get per second, it's how many seconds it takes to fully recharge from 0. They just never use their cap tanks, though it's been commonly rumored that using neuts on NPC's adversely affects their repper use.

Also, pretty sure his stats mutate depending on which faction you choose to side with in an earlier mission. Specifically his use of EWAR and weapons/defenses and such last I recall. The NPC linked isn't even Dagan (though it might actually be a variant of him given he uses more than one "template"); A lot of NPC's used shared ship hulls, but have differing stats, even NPC's with the same name might behave differently depending on the circumstances for them spawning. It could be him if the nomenclature used for his ship type matches the name of the NPC in the link, so long as that particular variant is spawned during that mission. I could be wrong on that much since his name is not being expressly given here, and him having multiple stat templates could also be something CCP got rid of at some point.

The whole ~100 DPS thing is pretty consistent, though. A Dragoon would be perfect given you don't actually need to fight inside his range to hit him as hard as you can, just close enough to send your drones to him. He's not much more difficult than any other non-elite cruiser, though he is meant to be a bit more of a challenge than the typical NPC you would face in previous SoE Arc missions. In this case, I would bring a propulsion module of some sort. I Microwarp drive is preferred, though an afterburner can work as well. Lock him up and throw your drones at him, then pull range to keep him from getting in a good position to shooting at you. If your tank starts to buckle, burn away from him at best speed to give your tank some time to rep back up and let your drones do the rest, burning in closer to use on-board weapons if that's not enough. Your drones in that boat will be the main source of your firepower anyways.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Amarr Empire
#5 - 2017-05-02 12:31:16 UTC
His stats no longer change, and he now consistently uses a target painter. Still, with high EM/Thermal resists does mean that an Amarr has to be prepared beforehand.

A Coercer with a full bank of Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Turret I's (you do have to boost the powergrid size), Extruded Heat Sink, and a cap-stable 1MN Afterburner (the Coercer needs a touch of extra speed to push it over 300 m/s to pull off the orbit at 500 meters method. He seemingly can track you if you're slower than that) can bring down Dagan pretty easily. Which I did yesterday night. Big smile
#6 - 2017-05-02 12:39:15 UTC
As another said, the dragoon may be the way to go, simply because of the drones. Assuming you can fit 5 T1's... that's 50-100 extra DPS of your choice of type (whatever his lowest resist hole is) depending on your skills.

Amarr Empire
#7 - 2017-05-02 12:47:32 UTC
I'd calculate drones at a 4x level. Training Drones V is a 9 day thing for Alphas, and it's unlikely that they have that at the end of SOE. Still respectable, though.

Problem was that I hadn't trained my Drones just yet as I hadn't needed them. Capacitor management skills was where I was training. Energy turrets and Armor reppers are such hogs.
#8 - 2017-05-02 13:04:51 UTC
Sofia Ziyara wrote:
Alright, so after a close call or two in the SOE arc, I've finally reached Our Man Dagan.

Currently, I know I don't have enough DPS to take him down (sitting right at 100.8 DPS Coercer, when every place I've looked has said he tanks 100), but wanted to ask a few questions about him so that I could nail down how much further to get to the point where I can solo him (such as do I need to jump to the Omen, or will switching to pulse be enough, or will it be IN crystals that do enough, etc.). Beyond that, eve-survival has his EM/Thermal resists at 85/81.3. Slightly problematic for an Amarr clone.

I do want to solo this, if at all possible, just to prove to myself that I can.

My questions now are:
1) Is the common quote of 100+ DPS before or after the resists? If after the resists, how would I go about factoring the resists into my DPS?

2) How far of a range does he have? I've seen multiple posts telling me to orbit at 500m to prevent him from being able to track, which I can do. But if I was going to stay out of range, how much distance do I need?

3) I've seen one place say that, if you can wait it out, you can drain his capacitor and make the tank more manageable. Obviously, since it's only one place, I'd like a confirmation on that.

I might have more questions later as I hear answers, but for now, this is it. Thanks!


Back when I ran the SOE-arc for the first time, I've heard that Dagan will always have a resist-profile tailored to your race (don't know if that was true, though), so fighting him as an Amarr with lasers will just lead to pain and disappointment.

Anyway, as an Amarr myself I changed into a Thorax with blasters and some medium drones. Worked like a charm.
#9 - 2017-05-02 14:09:32 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
You're reading the stats wrong on cap: the capacitor recharge rate is not how much you get per second, it's how many seconds it takes to fully recharge from 0. They just never use their cap tanks, though it's been commonly rumored that using neuts on NPC's adversely affects their repper use.


Perhaps. But nobody has ever presented a well tested explanation of NPC cap use. The only thing we know with certainty is that cap warfare is not an effective tactic against NPCs (except for nos maybe). Everything else is pure speculation based on age old rumors.

Sobaan Tali wrote:
Also, pretty sure his stats mutate depending on which faction you choose to side with in an earlier mission. Specifically his use of EWAR and weapons/defenses and such last I recall.


As noted by the OP, if this was ever true, it's no longer the case. He seems to use a fairly uniform resist profile and target painter against everybody now. If you have specific evidence of these "mutating stats", please present, because this also appears to be another age old rumor.


Sabaan Tali wrote:
The NPC linked isn't even Dagan (though it might actually be a variant of him given he uses more than one "template"); A lot of NPC's used shared ship hulls, but have differing stats, even NPC's with the same name might behave differently depending on the circumstances for them spawning.


That's a fair point, but there isn't anything about the Dagan mission that I'm aware of that runs counter to the stats from the Chruker website (with the possible exception of the shield booster skip chance, which I noted). If that's not a perfect representation of his ship then it's an incredibly close approximation, to include the turret tracking rate and the use of the target painter. I'd be very curious if you can identify any specific discrepancies based on objective evidence vs rumors.

Sobaan Tali wrote:
Lock him up and throw your drones at him, then pull range to keep him from getting in a good position to shooting at you. If your tank starts to buckle, burn away from him at best speed to give your tank some time to rep back up and let your drones do the rest, burning in closer to use on-board weapons if that's not enough.


While I acknowledge that there's no one "right" tactic for anything in the game, why would you fight him at range when you can speed tank him in close and get the added benefit of being in optimal range for your weapons? Not to mention, most people running the SoE Arc don't have the drones skills yet to rely on those.
#10 - 2017-05-02 14:28:49 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:


While I acknowledge that there's no one "right" tactic for anything in the game, why would you fight him at range when you can speed tank him in close and get the added benefit of being in optimal range for your weapons? Not to mention, most people running the SoE Arc don't have the drones skills yet to rely on those.


Well... I'd guess gallente would. I've always prioritized getting drones to V and level III for a few drone support skills... but I've always loved the Tristan and Algos for smaller ships. The gallente career missions do lead you that direction a bit.
#11 - 2017-05-02 15:01:38 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Well... I'd guess gallente would. I've always prioritized getting drones to V and level III for a few drone support skills... but I've always loved the Tristan and Algos for smaller ships. The gallente career missions do lead you that direction a bit.


A lot (most?) people running the SoE Arc for the first time have been playing the game for less than a week. I think I did it within the first few days (as Gallente) and my drone skills were still abysmal simply because I hadn't had time to train them up yet. The kind of player who can sit at range and beat Dagan with nothing but drones has probably been playing long enough that he doesn't need help.

Even if you're Gallente with good drone skills, it's still much faster to get in close and speed tank him while hitting him with hybrid blasters. If you can also throw some drones at him, all the better.
#12 - 2017-05-02 15:41:30 UTC
The Dagan section is to encourage players to work together.


#13 - 2017-05-02 16:19:09 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
The Dagan section is to encourage players to work together.


If that were true, it wouldn't be solo'able by players with less than a week in the game. It seems more like it was meant to be a moderate challenge to new players - which is what it is. If they were trying to encourage teaming up, it would be much harder.
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2017-05-02 16:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sofia Ziyara
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
The Dagan section is to encourage players to work together.




I heard that a lot going into the mission, but now, from the other side of the fence of completing SOE, I don't think it's true. Or at least not fully true.

It's more of a transition. Taking down Dagan can be done in multiple ways. What it is, is a clear-cut "end" of the tutorial missions, an intro to the Eve where the gloves are coming off. How you go over that hump is up to you.

At the end of the Advanced Military, you get a full Destroyer hull. The SOE arc showers you in cash to outfit it. With a bit of research and a basic understanding of fitting, taking down Dagan can be very easy. Fortune favors the prepared and all that jazz.

You could fleet up with locals/corp mates and take him down. Equally valid.

You could yolo it, do no research, and maybe you get lucky in taking him down. (unlikely, though) Valid way of playing Eve.

You could ignore the combat and go off to do exploration. Still a valid way of playing.

There's no one "right" way to do it, and suggesting that a newbie has to, or should, fleet up to take down Dagan isn't true. They can, if they want. But if they don't, they can easily compensate in other ways. It's their preference.

Edit: Ninja'd because I took too long to write.
#15 - 2017-05-02 16:37:32 UTC
Sofia Ziyara wrote:
[Edit: Ninja'd because I took too long to write.


Yes, but well said regardless. You already have a better grasp of this game than a lot of people who have played for years.
#16 - 2017-05-02 18:41:03 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
The Dagan section is to encourage players to work together.

If that were true, it wouldn't be solo'able by players with less than a week in the game. It seems more like it was meant to be a moderate challenge to new players - which is what it is. If they were trying to encourage teaming up, it would be much harder.

I suspect we may have differing ideas on what "encourage" might mean. I don't think something has to be impossible or nearly so in order to nudge players in a possible direction of action. In fact, it might be said that much of the appeal of EvE is in it's minimal scripted courses of action.




Sofia Ziyara wrote:

...There's no one "right" way to do it, and suggesting that a newbie has to, or should, fleet up to take down Dagan isn't true. They can, if they want. But if they don't, they can easily compensate in other ways. It's their preference.

If I gave you the impression that I think an EvE player has to do things in a certain way then I apologise. Certainly I don't think that is the case. As for should...well, for me, anyway, that has often proven to be more useful. I see a "should" suggestion as to a course of action to be similar to choosing damage types to inflict on an opponent - if they are most vulnerable to kinetic damage, it might be preferable to deal kinetic damage. Does one have to? No, but it might produce a better result one might find more useful.




Zarek Kree wrote:
...You already have a better grasp of this game than a lot of people who have played for years.

I agree that is sadly true and Sofia Ziraya displays an admirable attitude. As far as your insult angle goes, however, well...ok, then...







#17 - 2017-05-02 19:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Zarek Kree wrote:
...You already have a better grasp of this game than a lot of people who have played for years.

I agree that is sadly true and Sofia Ziraya displays an admirable attitude. As far as your insult angle goes, however, well...ok, then...


That wasn't intended as an insult toward you. Frankly I wasn't even thinking about your comment when I wrote it. That said, I wouldn't have disagreed if you'd said, "Many new players approach Dagan by teaming up. Teamwork is a highly effective solution and one which is equally applicable to most aspects of EVE." But definitive statements (which are rarely applicable) without any caveats (which are almost always applicable) about what the game designers intended (which is unknowable in this instance since they've never stated their intentions for the SOE Arc as anything other than a good introduction following the career missions), is simply irresponsible.

What I was actually thinking about is how people who have been here for a while (like yourself) have a really bad habit of rolling into these threads and spreading unverified rumors as definitive fact - even when they've been objectively debunked ages ago. There are multiple instances in this thread alone. It's one thing when noobs (like myself) pass objectively wrong information. That doesn't make it excusable, but at least I can plead youth and ignorance. But older players don't have that excuse. At the very least they should at least know what they don't know and shut up.

Sometimes what your corp mate heard from some dude's brother 4 years ago is correct - but most of the time it's rubbish. Yet rather than research the answer or actually (God forbid) empirically verify some random rumor, a lot of old timers just give the rubbish answer, thereby perpetuating a falsehood. It pisses me off because they have a responsibility as older players to pass factually correct information if they're going to frequent this board. I can't tell you how many times I've fact checked some dude with 10,000 posts whose been playing since 2005 and found his answer to be 100% wrong. And then seen the exact same thing in the very next thread.

So when you give a definitive answer to something on these boards that you don't know with a high degree of objective certainty is correct, you're either being lazy or stupid. You old timers need to tighten it the hell up or move along. You should be ashamed that it takes a noob like me to tell you that.

The OP made an effort to research thoroughly, try to separate the wheat from he chaff, ask relevant questions and then report back objective results with the proper caveats. The best I can say about your particular comment is that at least it wasn't objectively false. Congratulations for that.
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-05-04 21:19:32 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
You're reading the stats wrong on cap: the capacitor recharge rate is not how much you get per second, it's how many seconds it takes to fully recharge from 0. They just never use their cap tanks, though it's been commonly rumored that using neuts on NPC's adversely affects their repper use.


Perhaps. But nobody has ever presented a well tested explanation of NPC cap use. The only thing we know with certainty is that cap warfare is not an effective tactic against NPCs (except for nos maybe). Everything else is pure speculation based on age old rumors..


not rumors . confirmed by ccp neuts will lower npc % to repair . RTFM .. Big smile



Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-05-05 15:24:29 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
You're reading the stats wrong on cap: the capacitor recharge rate is not how much you get per second, it's how many seconds it takes to fully recharge from 0. They just never use their cap tanks, though it's been commonly rumored that using neuts on NPC's adversely affects their repper use.


Perhaps. But nobody has ever presented a well tested explanation of NPC cap use. The only thing we know with certainty is that cap warfare is not an effective tactic against NPCs (except for nos maybe). Everything else is pure speculation based on age old rumors.


Different rats are sometimes different, but my last experiment with nossing rats ended up with 0 GJ returned per nos no matter whether I was attempting to nos a frig, cruiser, or BS rat (from my BS, admittedly) and no matter what my own cap level was at.

You used to be able to nos beacons and structures, too... no longer.
#20 - 2017-05-06 01:25:39 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Zarek Kree wrote:
...You already have a better grasp of this game than a lot of people who have played for years.

I agree that is sadly true and Sofia Ziraya displays an admirable attitude. As far as your insult angle goes, however, well...ok, then...


That wasn't intended as an insult toward you. Frankly I wasn't even thinking about your comment when I wrote it. That said, I wouldn't have disagreed if you'd said, "Many new players approach Dagan by teaming up. Teamwork is a highly effective solution and one which is equally applicable to most aspects of EVE." But definitive statements (which are rarely applicable) without any caveats (which are almost always applicable) about what the game designers intended (which is unknowable in this instance since they've never stated their intentions for the SOE Arc as anything other than a good introduction following the career missions), is simply irresponsible.

What I was actually thinking about is how people who have been here for a while (like yourself) have a really bad habit of rolling into these threads and spreading unverified rumors as definitive fact - even when they've been objectively debunked ages ago. There are multiple instances in this thread alone. It's one thing when noobs (like myself) pass objectively wrong information. That doesn't make it excusable, but at least I can plead youth and ignorance. But older players don't have that excuse. At the very least they should at least know what they don't know and shut up.

Sometimes what your corp mate heard from some dude's brother 4 years ago is correct - but most of the time it's rubbish. Yet rather than research the answer or actually (God forbid) empirically verify some random rumor, a lot of old timers just give the rubbish answer, thereby perpetuating a falsehood. It pisses me off because they have a responsibility as older players to pass factually correct information if they're going to frequent this board. I can't tell you how many times I've fact checked some dude with 10,000 posts whose been playing since 2005 and found his answer to be 100% wrong. And then seen the exact same thing in the very next thread.

So when you give a definitive answer to something on these boards that you don't know with a high degree of objective certainty is correct, you're either being lazy or stupid. You old timers need to tighten it the hell up or move along. You should be ashamed that it takes a noob like me to tell you that.

The OP made an effort to research thoroughly, try to separate the wheat from he chaff, ask relevant questions and then report back objective results with the proper caveats. The best I can say about your particular comment is that at least it wasn't objectively false. Congratulations for that.

Dang, you sure got a bee in your bonnet, just a-spewin' that passive-aggressive froth! - lol Relax.
I don't care if you disagree and/or are pissed off about anything. Doubt many others do either. If you choose to dismiss what people say because some of the others who have also been in a video game you play might have been wrong, knuckleheads, or you don't like the way something is said - well, that's on you. Personally, I used the resource of information from people who had
been doing this game longer than I had when I was starting out and even more so today. There's so much to EvE most of us never stop learning. Have a special day.



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