Ships & Modules

 
 

Best of class: Assault frigates

Author
#1 - 2017-05-06 05:44:00 UTC
I've been inspired to make this thread in relation to some other threads elsewhere talking about AF's getting new roles etc. I don't think that new "roles" are especially needed in a game that already has specialised niche ships. What new role could an AF even possibly have? The game has mechanical limitations to it not just in terms of ship interaction but server structure as well, this is why the proposed "flak cannon" AF's idea will never work. Even if you could program them to be this way, they just simply wouldn't work at an architectural level.

So instead I'd rather approach AF's from a different angle. The goal of this thread has 3 simple objectives.


  • To delineate functionally good assault frigates vs functionally poor ones.
  • To propose highly specific discussion about individual ships regarding their strengths and what weaknesses they may have
  • To generate lists for ships which prove the above points but with a simple caveat: the fit of modules cannot be more than 2x the value of the hull. Ergo a 30mil hull is allowed 60mil of modules. Extra points are awarded for fits that go 1:1 or better. You will lose points for not using modules that conform to the ships native bonuses. That means shield tanked armour bonused ships lose points. It means a laser rokh loses points. You get the idea.


So I'll go first. Starting from the top, using pyfa as my analysis tool:
Quote:
[Vengeance, Vengeance solo]

Shadow Serpentis Small Armor Repairer
Shadow Serpentis Small Armor Repairer
Ballistic Control System II
Shadow Serpentis Adaptive Nano Plating

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200
Warp Scrambler II
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket
Small Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket

Small Anti-Thermal Pump II
Small Bay Loading Accelerator II


Inherent Implants 'Squire' Power Grid Management EG-603
Standard Exile Booster


Navy Cap Booster 200 x20


So with some of these modules the prices that come up in pyfa are a bit off. This is the best well rounded fit I personally could come up with for a 'reasonable' budget. The reppers themselves are actually overcosted here, you can get them much cheaper.

Some vitals to analyse - 166hp/s tank / 201hp/s with exile. 211 dps with rage rockets. Neuting pressure. Combined price in pyfa is 52mil.

Some commentary I'd like to drop at this point is that this ship just screams for more PG. It only needs 1 more pg to be an actually useful ship, which would allow you to just use t2 reppers which are cheaper yet again. This fit actually technically doesn't work. It is 55.36 pg available and it needs 55.4 meaning you need 0.04pg to make even a basic fit with some faction gear work. I don't find this acceptable at all. Either that or continue to downgrade and downgrade equipment until the ship becomes worse than a t1.

So let's get some discussion rolling, anyone make a better vengeance fit for cheaper? Any input on this specific hull? I think it's really important to discuss these things and get some numbers popping out because CCP do actually act on strong evidence when something is wrong.
#2 - 2017-05-06 07:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
I may have missed the point. But I don't think people are saying the AF's are bad, just that T3D's made them, outdated. And I am honestly not trying to derail. Just felt like throwing it out there,


Also TIL: Delineate means to describe or portray.

Quote:
[Hawk, Hawk fit]

Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Initiated Compact Warp Scrambler
Republic Fleet EM Ward Amplifier (Fleeting Compact Stasis Web)

Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
[Empty High slot]

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Core Defense Operational Solidifier II



Pretty sure this a basic Hawk fitting, needs a 2% CPU Implant to work, 258dps with rage + heat. tanks (With standard blue pill) 293dps with a single MASB 586 with both, heated 758 with heat and both, but at that point you'll be alpha'ed. The total cost is 55mil. Would like to find a way to fit a neut in, but the hawk doesn't have the fitting room unless you tech down to an AB. Which negates it's MWD bonus.

You can switch out the EM ward for a stasis web, which will lower your fitting cost further and give the bonus of a full tackle set.

EDIT: My Pyfa is outdated, so some number may be wrong.
#DeleteTheWeak
Evictus.
#3 - 2017-05-06 08:26:00 UTC
Why would you pay 24 million for a Vengance when you can buy a Confessor or Jackdaw for 35 million? In what scenario is the Assault Frigate a better choice?

That's the viewpoint you need to approach any rebalance discussion. AFs are not independent entities - they exist as part of an ecosystem and they can't compete with T3 destroyers. They need a new niche.

#4 - 2017-05-06 09:04:36 UTC
Do Little wrote:
Why would you pay 24 million for a Vengance when you can buy a Confessor or Jackdaw for 35 million? In what scenario is the Assault Frigate a better choice?

That's the viewpoint you need to approach any rebalance discussion. AFs are not independent entities - they exist as part of an ecosystem and they can't compete with T3 destroyers. They need a new niche.


Ok so t2 frigate is 24-30mil
T2 dessy is 50 mil
T3 dessy is 35 mil
T2 cruiser is 180-220mil

is it purely market forces or maybe the costs of t3d is way out of line?
RvB - RED Federation
#5 - 2017-05-06 14:30:16 UTC
Afs are **** even without t3ds. Its not like t3ds are actually a thing in fw lowsec anymore anyways. Afs are to slow, they cant beat kiters and they arent good enough brawlers to compete with t1 cruisers or similar.

A comet will 1v1 most afs, and even if it doesnt win it can always get away.


A AF is basicely a t1 dessie in performance for pretty much everything, the extra speed and sig reduction is meaningless in battles vs ships that are smaller then cruisers. And ever since the t1 cruiser redesign afs cant beat cruisers and up anyways.
#6 - 2017-05-11 11:17:17 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Afs are **** even without t3ds. Its not like t3ds are actually a thing in fw lowsec anymore anyways. Afs are to slow, they cant beat kiters and they arent good enough brawlers to compete with t1 cruisers or similar.

A comet will 1v1 most afs, and even if it doesnt win it can always get away.


A AF is basicely a t1 dessie in performance for pretty much everything, the extra speed and sig reduction is meaningless in battles vs ships that are smaller then cruisers. And ever since the t1 cruiser redesign afs cant beat cruisers and up anyways.


Part of this thread was meant to collate info for the devs about what players had as expectations for AF going forward. If you watched the fan fest clip where Larrikin talks about making AF more like marauders then you can see conceptually where they're headed.

But

Very big but

They're reasoning for this change was that lots of newbs run low level missions in AF which I personally think is a total non sequitur. I know a guy who does hacking sites in null using an interceptor because they are bubble immune. You wouldn't think so but its true. I know that marauders themselves were designed for pve specifically and pvp use is just incidental bonuses but taking a pure pvp class like AF and giving them a rather nebulous redesign to pve so that their puny dps can let them run almost worthless missions is bizarre.

The real question I'd have is if looking waaay back in time to tgose days what specifically led CCP to decide that these kind of slow but tanky frigates whom most fight inside scram range what the point of giving them a 50% mwd sig bloom bonus was. Unlike their big brothers the hac they don't have the range or the fittings with these systems to really start kiting or whatever. Nevermind ships like vengeance or hawk whose bonuses are specifically tuned for a job they're just not brilliant at.
The Wraithguard.
#7 - 2017-05-11 15:22:25 UTC
I still fly AF's and love them. Sure a t3 dessie is the thing. But sometimes the old AF rocks. Maybe stop worrying about the numbers nd learn how to fly your ships!
Some fun fits:

[Hawk, Skelee VI's Hawk]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Phased Scoped Target Painter
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster,Navy Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster,Navy Cap Booster 50

Rocket Launcher II,Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Mjolnir Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

[Vengeance, Skelee VI's Vengeance]
200mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
IFFA Compact Damage Control
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer,Nanite Repair Paste

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Scoped Warp Scrambler
Fleeting Compact Stasis Webifier

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet EMP S
Rocket Launcher II,Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Inferno Rage Rocket

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2017-05-11 20:09:29 UTC
I love my AFs too...

And having just come back from a ~5 year break (lol, right?)... I see they got "unloved" then "loved" then now... IDK.

I love flying them as well. Missions though used to be easier (I remember doing L4's - though slowly - in my AFs).

Still trying to figure out what I should fly again though. =]

Should I move up to HAC's?
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2017-05-11 20:21:15 UTC
Nope. Only if you wanna support fleets, they're not good for much else. What to train into depends what you wanna do.
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-05-11 20:38:18 UTC
Awesome. I'll stick with my AFs then (and all other frigs)! I like the small fast ships.

Now I just need to find me a new corp. XD
#11 - 2017-05-12 12:52:54 UTC
Brun Torrson wrote:
I love my AFs too...

And having just come back from a ~5 year break (lol, right?)... I see they got "unloved" then "loved" then now... IDK.

I love flying them as well. Missions though used to be easier (I remember doing L4's - though slowly - in my AFs).

Still trying to figure out what I should fly again though. =]

Should I move up to HAC's?


No... but if you like AF's there might be other ships you'll like a lot more. Combat fit interceptors (as opposed to tacklers) are very fun. So are T3 Destroyers. Both might be a lot more enjoyable for you than the AF.

That's kind of the problem. It's not that AF's suck, but there are other ships at the same price point that do everything an AF does... only better.
#12 - 2017-05-12 21:11:18 UTC
Care to qualify that statement? Seems pretty far fetched to suggest that similarly priced or cheaper hulls are 100% without a doubt better than any AF of similar bonuses. Infact from casual observation most pirate ships can only boast more speed and damage very rarely can they match the tank.
The Wraithguard.
#13 - 2017-05-15 15:26:10 UTC
Too many variables to qualify that argument!
If a frig gets nailed by a hurricane does more tank really matter? anything under 10,000 ehp is dead in seconds.
Screw isk factor, look at the fun factor. I still fly facton frigs, inteceptors ... all fun to fly. Picked up fully fit Retribution for 25 mil! I will get lots fun out of that one.
Ocularis Inferno
#14 - 2017-05-16 20:08:25 UTC
Scialt wrote:


No... but if you like AF's there might be other ships you'll like a lot more. Combat fit interceptors (as opposed to tacklers) are very fun. So are T3 Destroyers. Both might be a lot more enjoyable for you than the AF.

That's kind of the problem. It's not that AF's suck, but there are other ships at the same price point that do everything an AF does... only better.



and that's exactly it.

they aren't as bad as the perception, which means a lot of people will take a fight with one without realizing that they have a near 0% chance of winning that fight.

The one advantage assault frigs have over all T3D's except confessor is their signature (jackdaw is too slow for the sig reduction to matter in the ways you would use the small sig offensively)
You can slow-boat orbit against any cruiser with less than two webs and be under their guns. The combination of a signature less than 50 and a base speed above 300.

Of course, that just means X-instinct and Halos will make things stupid (unless the drug fairy hates you and gives you -20% to something important).


Instead of a "new niche", AFs should get some love to the CPU, PG, and align time. The AF fitting is so tight that there is very little space available for different fitting styles. You are generally shoe-horned into one or two fits that aren't clowny with more fitting mods than damage or tank mods.

Also, after the t3d nerfs (production cost and non-sharps dps nerf), their market history is a roller coaster. The t3d hulls can vary from 25m-55m, and with an additional 15 mil to fit them (and an additional 10 mil for a set of sister probes and sister combat probes), there is a place for AFs to bring hard tackle to the stuff the ceptor catches with a point while the fleet takes it's sweet time to get there where a t3d does about the same job (tank and speed wise) but at a higher enough cost to not bother with.
The-Culture
#15 - 2017-05-18 08:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
Being that my primary hobby (when not engaging in hijinks with other alliance members) is to annoy and provoke mission runners into trying to murder me, the assault frigate is pretty much my go-to vessel of choice.

In particular I prefer the Ishkur of Fantastic, fit in classic Lords of Midnight fashion.
The enyo is nice too, but what it gains in firepower it loses in versatility.

Ishkur of Fantastic

Lows:
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Small Armor Repairer II

Mids:
1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II (Navy Cap Booster 150)

High:
Light Ion Blaster II, Fed Navy Antimatter(drones) or Void S(shiny things)
Light Ion Blaster II
Light Ion Blaster II
Small Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer

Rigs:
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Drones:
Hobgoblin II x10 OR x5 and Acolyte II x5

With a set of Halos this little monster packs a signature nearly as small as a light drone, smaller if you want to get drugs involved. It has a tough enough tank to be able to weather incoming fire from a mission runner's entire pocket AND their blingship at the same time... all the while delivering the death of a thousand cuts to their shiny pimpmobile.

The ability to field two full flights of bonused light drones gives it the versatility to keep the primary target on lockdown while blueballing or outright melting outside help that may come to rescue the princess. Well, usually. It's not an 'I win' guaranteed, but so long as you're not trying to take on a Rattlesnake solo with one it can seriously ruin someone's day.

I also love the Comet, but that's a story for a different thread.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

E.B.O.L.A.
#16 - 2017-05-22 08:24:23 UTC
How about giving them a considerate speed boost and making them impervous to cap warfare as a role bonus? I can imagine something like this would be fun to fly without breaking too much.
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-05-22 08:49:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Atomeon
Juana Cavin-Guang wrote:

Instead of a "new niche", AFs should get some love to the CPU, PG, and align time. The AF fitting is so tight that there is very little space available for different fitting styles. You are generally shoe-horned into one or two fits that aren't clowny with more fitting mods than damage or tank mods.


That^
Everyone thinks Enyo is a monster. Make a fit for example Enyo, so you can fit a high utility and a couple Mag stabs.
If you wanna fit it with 150mm rails to take just for fun to missions..... then the fun starts, you must leave empty slots.
There are AF that can barely fit guns and a rep. Shame.
Phalanx Federation
#18 - 2017-05-22 18:32:04 UTC
Love using the Vengeance. It does pretty good for me, I can fit all tech 2 mods on it pretty cheaply as compared to a Confessor.
Im not saying it's a great ship but I am very fond of it. One look at my killmail will tell you I suck at pvp with any ship anyway.
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