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Just saying

Author
Electus Matari
#1 - 2017-05-08 13:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
A history lesson follows.

Some of the people here might still remember how ten years ago, there was fighting in The Bleak Lands [1], threatening to push us into a hot war with the Amarr Empire. The Republic eventually caught the troublemaker Karishal Muritor [2] and the war fizzled. Plenty of capsuleers then and today place Defiant blood on Karin Midular's hands. It is less remembered today that it was also Malaetu Shakor that spoke against the escalation of the war by the traitor Karishal Muritor [3].

When it was found out that Karin Midular had been in talks with the Ammatar tribe to bring them to the fold, there was a huge outcry [4]. The terrorist group Bloody Hands of Matar worked against this, and pretty much succeeded for a while [5].

When we found out about the existence of the Starkmanir [6, 7], it was Karin Midular's appointed ambassador [8] who knew of the Elder Fleet and enough of the situation to make threats to OCNCORD [9]. It was still her Fleet, when we let it pass through our territory unharmed [10]

But it was Malaetu Shakor - who had himself spoken against open war in the Bleak Lands only a year earlier, remember - who seized that historical moment to advance his own agenda and to call the achievements of her government "appeasement [11].

When Karin Midular dissolved the parliament to advance the goals of the tribes, riots broke out and she was - rightfully, mind you - called on it [12]. Yet when the same parliament was murdered by the Thukker without trial for being "corrupt" [13], people were quick to support the calls for Malaetu Shakor to replace it [14].

And so, when it is all already over, he returned and played the part of the savior [15]. And there was much rejoicing [16] and a remarkable lack of mention of how you can end up murdered in a purge if you disagree in the parliament. It does not take much to win an election when you are the only candidate [17]. Then you can give yourself a fancy title [18].

For some reason, when Malaetu Shakor gives condolences for the sad loss of Amarr life and wows to catch warmongering terrorists, it's not appeasement [19]. Talking to the Ammatar about unification has also turned politically correct some time after the “elections" [20] and dissolving the parliament is also now just fine [21]. This all is a little puzzling to anyone having followed his rhetoric and that of his followers, but at least bombing Minmatar theatres because they make fun of him is also just fine [22], so we know he has not grown all soft.

(cont'd)
Electus Matari
#2 - 2017-05-08 13:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
(cont’d)

There is much speecifying and some incredibly wonderful poll numbers [23] and military posturing [24].

(Meanwhile, Sebiestor tribe members again save the Starkmanir, while Shakor’s council is busy talking [25]. No one pays much attention.)

Then, quite suddenly, a lone gunman attacks an event where the Sebiestor tribal chief, former Prime Minister Karin Midular happens to be present [26]. RSS makes quick action to recover the shooter [27]. The Republic also makes quick requests to have Karin Midular in their hands, dismissing or trying to dismiss offers of medical aid by both the Federation [28] and The State [29]. She dies [30]. The Minmatar government is so keen to recover the shooter that they almost start a shooting war with the Federation over it [31]. They finally get what they want, and the shooter is quickly and effectively silenced forever [32].

Karin Midular is replaced on the tribal council by Acassa Midular, a known “sharp critic of the old parliamentary system” [33].

Five years pass. The toy war comes and goes, eating our resources but bringing no progress whatsoever.

The silence grows so loud it hurts my ears.
Mercenary Coalition
#3 - 2017-05-08 14:09:16 UTC
This is why I genuinely love having you back in the void, Ell. Someone to commiserate with about the state of affairs, while occasionally locking horns with. It's frankly heartening to have someone on your side of the spectrum in that regard, because that means that no matter which one of us ends up being in the wrong, there's someone on the other side that can say they stood for what ended up being right.

That said, I'm curious. You've spent a lot of time talking about our recent history and - right or wrong, that was quite a bit of personal opinion injected along with the facts - lambasting both those events and the current status, but you haven't spoken much about the path forwards. What do you see being the right path to walk for the Tribes? What is your solution to the grievances you have?
Electus Matari
#4 - 2017-05-08 14:20:41 UTC
I don't have one, Miz.

That is the problem.

It's a war of attrition and we've lost.
Mercenary Coalition
#5 - 2017-05-08 14:25:40 UTC
Then the question becomes, what are you going to do about that? Nothing? Something?
Electus Matari
#6 - 2017-05-08 14:45:19 UTC
We're a bunch of unelected pilots with little to no Tribal or other political representation... we're perfectly able to destroy things on a tactical level (toy wars, etc) but the levers of power are moved with or without us.

Probably this isn't the best venue for discussion of solutions, if any can exist, which is up for debate itself. But at least setting down a relatively consistent set of facts is rather more transparent than some other discussions about this kind of thing have been.
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-05-08 15:08:19 UTC
KillJoy Tseng wrote:
We're a bunch of unelected pilots with little to no Tribal or other political representation... we're perfectly able to destroy things on a tactical level (toy wars, etc) but the levers of power are moved with or without us.

Probably this isn't the best venue for discussion of solutions, if any can exist, which is up for debate itself. But at least setting down a relatively consistent set of facts is rather more transparent than some other discussions about this kind of thing have been.



At the https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6921446#post6921446 I had asked for a debate, on similar topics raised by Captain Rhiannon. I think we should try and make that happen. Or given how I am a nobody amongst capsuleers, those who matter should.(thats my opinion at least)

I will disagree with you friend that since we all are unelected pilots we have little swing and say. Changes require time and effort, and usually happen slowly but surely. The first step is to organize and adress the issues.

On topic area, I will congratulate Captain Rhiannon on this very well established post. I am certain more will follow.
Electus Matari
#8 - 2017-05-08 15:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
See, this is how these discussions tend to go:

Else: "... and that's why we have a problem."
Someone: "I agree. What's your plan?"
Else: "I don't have a plan. I think we've lost already."
Someone: "But what are you going to do about it?"
Else: "... gods and spirits."

Here are some things that have been suggested:

1) Assassinate the traitor on top.
Prohibitively difficult to achieve. Results uncertain.

2) Start a civil war.
Would invite an Amarr invasion, so untenable at this point.

3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.

4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. (Use toy war for practice.)
The Electus Matari way.

5) Go somewhere else where there are explosions and/or riches to be had, keep your head down, and eff it all until someone else comes up with a plan.
Personally appealing but not helpful.

6) Have political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however. Also see point no 2.
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2017-05-08 15:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioannis Sepphiros
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
See, this is how these discussions tend to go:

Else: "... and that's why we have a problem."
Someone: "I agree. What's your plan?"
Else: "I don't have a plan. I think we've lost already."
Someone: "But what are you going to do about it?"
Else: "... gods and spirits."

Here are some things that have been suggested:

1) Assasinate the traitor on top.
Prohibitively difficult to achieve. Results uncertain.

2) Start a civil war.
Would invite an Amarr invasion, so untenable at this point.

3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.

4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. Use toy war for practice.
The Electus Matari way.

5) Go somewhere else where there are explosions and/or riches to be had, keep your head down, and eff it all until someone else comes up with a plan.
Plenty of people do this, too. Personally appealing but not helpful.

6) Have a political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however.


As with anything in life, actions and talk is what one makes out of it. Maybe its time for different kind of discussions and different set of actions? If any of the above have been suggested and didnt work then either executing on them was wrong or they are fundamentally wrong. Which in any case would require a new set of thinking but most importantly executing on that thought.
Electus Matari
#10 - 2017-05-08 15:34:54 UTC
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
As with anything in life, actions and talk is what one makes out of it. Maybe its time for different kind of discussions and different set of actions? If none of the above have been suggested and didnt work then either executing on them was wrong or they are fundamentally wrong. Which in any case would require a new set of thinking but most importantly executing on that thought.

Please, go on.
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2017-05-08 15:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
You should write drifter conspiracies.

Endlessly trying to convince people with no say that the Tribal government that is not violently protested against, grows the Republic's economy, has dropped the crime rate, reduced corruption, and improved security is bad takes a real talent for omission and re-direction. Karin Midular literally dissolving the entire governing body of the First Republic when a vote of no confidence in her position as prime minister removed her from power was not the act of an authoritarian but the act of someone who truly was acting with the best interest of the Tribes at heart.

The Sanmatar returning all Tribes and overseeing the creation of a new Tribal order with the chief's at its head and then stepping back into the historic position of mediator he was elected into is obviously the dangerous first (second?) move of a dictator. He could have just kept all power like he had for years while he worked to that goal but then people would not like him.

The Sanmatar in your world must be the most brilliant dictator of all time. I do not know how he ever has time to actually mediate dispute in the Tribal Council or appear in public when he is so busy organizing everything from the bombing of empty theatres to the assassination of The Ray of Matar.

And I love how now the Elder Fleet was all attributed to Midular as well. That certainly is a strong reversal of the last few years of insisting that Shakor secretly funneled funds away to create it and use it to overthrow the First Republic. When she released a statement saying "we do not know who they are" at their appearance in Yulai she was just pretending then? When her office stated "Under no conceivable circumstances would Premier Midular authorize or endorse any threat against CONCORD" and that there would be "Very serious implications for Mr. Yun" (if he was involved) and you say it was her fleet??

Senior councilman Amrisar resigned because Karin Midular had "pulled the strings so long she had forgotten about political process." The number of Matari leaving her Republic for the Federation increased seven-fold under her stagnating economy due to unemployment and crime rising. Under Shakor more have moved to the Republic from the Federation than the inverse but that is beside the point no? Violence among the Tribes was at its highest during her reign. Muritor, the theft of the Alfhild, the One ISK protests, the Bloody Hands, the bombing of Egbonbet, [b]Skarkon[b] (when she threw Yun out of parliment), her slow response to Jarizza, ...all you gloss over in your effort to blame Shakor for her death. You paint the purge of the First Republic as an act of power consolidation and ignore the evidence of their corruption and connections to the Sanist Karsoth. You ignore it was Karin Midular herself that called for the vote that elected Shakor as Prime Minister and the wave of support that named him Sanmatar.

I enjoy also how you twisted events to pretend that medical aid was refused when the reality is she was not transported because she was in Federal medical care and could not be moved for fear of her life. It was not until Federal doctors stated that moving her would cause her no harm that she was brought to Pator but in your mind it must have been what killed her and all some plot by the Sanmatar. Regardless of the fact she was in the care of the Sebiestor Tribe.

You say the shooter was silenced forever and forget that it was YOUR tribe which did so. He was not tried by Shakor or the Brutor but by the Sebiestor Tribal Court so how does that fit into your conspiracy? Is the Sanmatar still such a fantastic dictator that your Tribe's highest court are also his puppets Elsebeth? His execution under Sebiestor law is somehow now a method to silence an agent of Shakor?

You go against the wishes of your own chief and disgrace Karin Midular, the Sanmatar, and the Republic with your insane theories. Her legacy was meant to be that of the Ray of Matar who struggled against a broken system to find peace, a legacy of Tribal autonomy being paramount in the Republic.

Instead you wish her legacy to be that of a helpless fool who was assassinated by her enemies. Perhaps the silence that deafens you is the disgust of your fellow Tribesman. But I am sure this conspiracy will live on in the hearts of ignorant capsuleers and backwater clans for all time.

As strength goes.

Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-05-08 15:54:51 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
As with anything in life, actions and talk is what one makes out of it. Maybe its time for different kind of discussions and different set of actions? If none of the above have been suggested and didnt work then either executing on them was wrong or they are fundamentally wrong. Which in any case would require a new set of thinking but most importantly executing on that thought.

Please, go on.



There isnt something more to go on given the topic area/place and the aim of the post besides stating that evidently factionalism isnt the way to go at this.

Those that matter/are in the thick of it should step up and be beacons of hope and unity Captain Rhiannon, I dont harbor such false notions about myself nor I could contribute in a fundamental manner given my youth as a capsuleer within this topic. I can only state what I would like to see from a personal viewpoint and thats as far as I can go about this given how I would be disrespectful to the rest before me that have done so much about the Republic, each to his/her own capacity and will.

The Republic has made some progress, you present its not enough, I agree as there is always a room for improvement. For these things, none can go about it alone. Not individually but also not on a tribal level as well.

Hope, unity and pragmatism Captain that are the tools I can only think of. No civil wars, no assasinations, not going away and so on. Just hope, unity and pragmatism.
Electus Matari
#13 - 2017-05-08 16:02:54 UTC
Careful there Ayallah. Elsebeth may be a lot of things but a member of the tinfoil hat squad ain't one of them.

Every point Else made in her original post was backed up by documented facts. You're attacking her personally based on your own well-known biases and your tribal allegiances.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2017-05-08 16:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
I have no allegiance to a Tribe and everything I said is also factual. I may be biased as the actions of the Elder Fleet lead me to where I am now but that fleet was destroyed. Or maybe you think I am like some Amarrians who rejoiced over the death of the Ray Of Matar. You and I spoke often in the Standing Place when it happened so you know that is not true.

Later I will make pretty links like hers but it will not convince anyone. Those who believe that the First Republic was destroyed by Shakor to create a dictatorship and that Karin Midular was assassinated will continue to do so. Those who do not care will continue to do so. The Bias is in the Sebiestor who continually spread this conspiracy despite all evidence, despite the findings and actions of their own Tribe and Chief.

It has been years of this same debate and still no evidence to support the conspiracy Anabella. Only this time she changed the words and said that the Elder Fleet was "her's" and that Shakor or whomever refused treatment from Federal doctors. Those are both outright lies and completely verifiable by anyone who has access to the scope archives.

I did not attack her personally, I attacked this ridiculous idea that will not die. That will not let The Ray Of Matar rest or let a large portion of the Matari Capsuleer population to see the good in their new Tribal Government and instead constantly doomsay about a dictator who never appeared. This constant movement of nostalgia to pretend that everything was good under the First Republic and everything is bad under the Tribal Republic is what I am attacking. I argued with Avalynkaa until she would not speak to me for a month over this same thing Anabella, I can have respect for someone and still call their theory conspiracy and ridiculous. This is no different ..but thank you none the less for the warning given in good faith.

I know that the Sebiestor capsuleer population are not far from this thread to insult me endlessly, attack me directly, and address nothing of what I said, but I am not swayed from speaking the truth.

As strength goes.

Mercenary Coalition
#15 - 2017-05-08 16:26:16 UTC
I have to grudgingly admit that for once, Ayallah isn't just blowing hot air. Don't get me wrong, there's quite a bit of it but no more conjecture and assumption than in Ell's post. Whichever one holds closest to the truth is up for debate, but when that blowhard actually manages to rub those two braincells together for something else than stroking her ego I'd rather not discourage it.

And Elsebeth, when you start topics like these - heavily laced with your personal complaints and biases about the past - it should not come as a surprise when people ask what your plans are, or your motives for putting this sort of effort public. Is it just here to foment dissent? To inspire action, and if so what action? Tinfoil manufacture and distribution stock manipulation?

When there isn't even broad agreement that the problem you lay forth even exists, there's bound to be questions.
Arataka Research Consortium
#16 - 2017-05-08 16:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
As an uninvolved party, I will make no comment as to the politics of any of the Matari in this thread. It's not my place, nor my area of expertise.

I would like to speak in support, though, of Ms. Rhiannon's fantastically cited initial posting. For those of us on the outside, it provides a fascinating contextualization of internal Republic politics that we'd not normally be witness to.

Thank you!

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Electus Matari
#17 - 2017-05-08 16:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Ayallah wrote:
words


Now there's some noise and fire! From a pirate, granted, but at this point I'll take anything.

A couple of corrections.

1) I said that the outrage against Karin Midular dissolving the parliament was justified. My critique is about the fact that if dismissing those who disagree causes such an outrage, why does not murder without trial?

2) I did not mean to imply the Elder Fleet was Karin's doing alone. I meant the Republic Fleet was "hers", as in, what happened was still during her government. Also, "plausible deniability". Look it up.

3) I do not think I have ever criticized the Republic or the tribes secretly stockpiling military resources. I admit my memory is spotty - reclonings do that - but since the whole point of my politics have always been maintaining peace as a way to prepare for war, that would go contrary to what I have been.

4) You are trying to make this an issue between the tribes. I did not mention the Brutor tribe once in my original post. You are so blinded by your Sanmatar's tribal rhetoric that you think this is about tribal politics. It is not. The story is much uglier.

5) I said the current government attempted to stop Federal medical care. Yes, they failed. Sadly it was not enough.

6) You say we are becoming more prosperous. You base that on exactly nothing. Do the math: the Empire and the Republic are pouring the same amount, roughly, of resources to the toy war. We are much, much smaller (look at a map). Even if we go forward, in absolutete terms, it is not enough, if we lose, proportionally.

7) Our people increasingly turn to foreign cults [1]. So much for newly revived tribal traditions.

8) I don't actually consider Sanmatar Shakor a very good dictator. I am not sure if he is even a dictator at this point anymore or just a poser. My impression is he is intelligent and capable, but he worked only as long as he could comfortably establish himself, and since then has done pretty much exactly nothing, letting his cronies do the work, such as there is [2].

Ioannis Sepphiros wrote:
words

In other words, you are saying, "please you come up with a plan and execute it". Which part of "I do not know how to fix this" was unclear? "Just do something different!" is not very helpful, I am afraid.

Ayallah wrote:
Those who believe that the First Republic was destroyed by Shakor to create a dictatorship and that Karin Midular was assassinated will continue to do so. Those who do not care will continue to do so.

This is a very telling slip of tongue with phrasing. Even in your mind, there are those who realize the situation and those who do not care.
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-05-08 16:57:06 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
In other words, you are saying, "please you come up with a plan and execute it". Which part of "I do not know how to fix this" was unclear?



I didnt say anything of that sorts. In fact to be even more precise I never really called on you to provide with any plans in the first place.

I was rather clear on what I did say however.
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2017-05-08 17:04:49 UTC
I may enjoy trolling the feck out of Ayallah there (and she may never seem to get that I'm trolling her, and always take the bait), but I do have to agree with her position on the Sanmatar and the Tribal Council. If this is a dictatorship, it is possibly the best-concealed dictatorship in the history of New Eden. And really, if Shakor is that good at politics, intrigue, and manipulating the media and public awareness? Then he's probably exactly the dictator needed to keep the Empire from knowing anything, ever.

That doesn't mean I don't agree with your larger position regarding the military situation between the Empire and the Republic, though. I also tend to agree with Miz, though, on the inevitability of the question: Ok, so now what?

I don't know that I've got an answer, either. I think there's broad agreement on principals... the security of the Tribes, freedom fro our people, etc, but how we go about getting that...

If I thought we could achieve anything more than killing off every Matari willing to fight and leaving the next generation in chains, I'd say the cleanest, fastest, most direct option is the best. But I think that is all we'd achieve, and I think the enslavement of the rest of our people is too high a price to pay for a futile gesture that gains us nothing except a brief lessening of the frustration that comes with inaction.

The political pressure we can exert is... negligible. What pressure the Republic can bring to bear, it already has, both politicla and economic. I'm not sure we've got a stick big enough for the Emipre to fear it, and I don't know what kind of carrot could even begin to work on a population that's been carefully indoctrinated in insanity for a thousand years.

Anyone got any ideas?
#20 - 2017-05-08 17:12:55 UTC
Ok...


So there's like, a lot of ground to cover in this thread. And some points of history I've been on the wrong side of. But there were a few things I wanted to point out. Kind of a..more objective opinion?

Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:


1) Assassinate the traitor on top.
Prohibitively difficult to achieve. Results uncertain.

2) Start a civil war.
Would invite an Amarr invasion, so untenable at this point.

3) Fight the toy war, keep your head down. and hope for the best.
The Ushra'Khan way.

4) Ignore the unpleasantness, keep your head down, and keep on building and preparing in the Republic. (Use toy war for practice.)
The Electus Matari way.

5) Go somewhere else where there are explosions and/or riches to be had, keep your head down, and eff it all until someone else comes up with a plan.
Personally appealing but not helpful.

6) Have political debates and otherwise keep on talking about it, because capsuleers can somewhat safely voice objections that baseliners might be unable to.
Talk is cheap and I have plenty of it in stock. Risks for baseline kin are obvious, however. Also see point no 2.


1. Easier to achieve than you might think. Results might make him a martyr, but would probably just do nothing because one of his cronies would just step in and nothing would change.

2. I've heard this one a lot over the years. And you know what? It's wrong. The Republic has used the Amarr bogyman as a means to control Matari for far too long. Amarr has a lot of enemies. Going to war with us might be the worst thing they could do. And say what you will about CONCORD and the Gallente, but they would not allow Amarr to actually invade. They might lock down control of the Bleaks, but they'd never be able to win an actual war against all Republic space.

3. The U'K way is attractive and romantic and good for sharpening combat skills. But it's a waste of time and resources. This is the bad part of CONCORD. They keep us so tied up in this that we can't take care of things that deserve more attention.

4. Sorry to be blunt...but this is slave mentality. I know this from personal experience. You just do the work and hope things will change...but it never really does. You gotta be an agent of change.

5. Space is big. Really big. A while back a bunch of Matari got tired of the crap and moved out and made a nice little home. They invited others from around the galaxy to move in and party. So yeah, living in Heaven isn't always paradise, but it's a lot more liberating.

6. This. This we can do and do a lot. This used to be a thing here and it isn't as much as it was. Republican Tribals, Ammantar, Angels, Thukkers, Wormholers, NullSeccers and Amarrians....those of Matar are still Matari. We used to talk a lot. And it often got loud. I think maybe it's time for us be noisy again?



“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”

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