Science & Industry

 
 

Returning Veteran Industrialist

Author
#1 - 2017-05-11 18:41:26 UTC
Hello. I plan to return to Eve later this summer, but I admit I'm quite out of the loop since I've been gone so long. I left years ago, when people had high sec POS, the overview was "+" icons and people made money manufacturing and researching in their own POS. I liked industry then, and made quite a bit of money manufacturing freighters, JF, BB, and capital ship components. My POS was designed with lots of EW, and was really too much of a hassle for most wardec corps to mess with. Life was good. I left because CCP turned my hobbie into a job, where I had to watch POS vulnerability windows while on vacation, which was unacceptable to me. Eve is a game, not a job.

I'm thinking about coming back to see if I can have some fun mining and building again. I like what CCP has done to the Orca, and I'm thinking I might be able to use other people's structures to conduct my industry. It's my understanding that the NPC stations are too expensive to be competitive these days.

I have a few questions for the industrial vets out there. I want to stay in high sec at least initially, until I figure everything out, so please assume any question refers to high sec industry.

1. I know POS structures are being phased out and that there are new structures to replace them. I don't know what they are and how to use them. I have seen YouTube videos about industry and it seems these POS replacements are all over the place. I can't imagine why, because they have no automated defense and do have vulnerability windows now. Seems like wardec groups would just go from tower to tower and either exact "protection" or take them out and loot the wrecks. What am I missing in this picture?

2. Where does one go to research BPO's inexpensively? What happens to the BPOs if that structure is destroyed?

3. ...to copy BPO's inexpensively? If destroyed?

4. ...to manufacture inexpensively? If destroyed?

5. ...to refine minerals at a decent rate?

5. I used to run different types of POS, with an investment of around 500 mil to 1 billion isk each, in tower, guns, and different labs, refining, and production facilities. I also played as a casual, solo player with a bunch of characters and alt accounts. Is it profitable and safe for people like me to try and build their own industrial facilities? If so, what are the costs to build these facilities like these days?

Thank you!

Life is short. Have fun.

#2 - 2017-05-11 20:01:06 UTC
I seem to have been quite lucky to locate a couple of YouTube channels that explain quite a bit.

EveBusinessInsider has an excellent video on Citadels
Citadels Explained

This one video answered many of my questions.

delonewolf also has quite a few interesting videos revolving around industry in High Sec
the Raitaru engineering complex

I haven't resubbed yet, so I don't have experience with these structures, but I feel like I have a starting place. If any experienced Industrialists want to comment further, I certainly welcome your insights.

Life is short. Have fun.

Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-05-11 20:51:22 UTC
My advice, forget about POS ... and own ECs unless you have a PvP corp as backup or are willing to pay the ransom. You can't take a citadel down if attacked. There are plenty of public ECs in Highsec, you can negotiate conditions with the owners. Don't think anybody serious about it is still producing in NPC stations. Refining is done in citadels as well, and compression is (still) free. BPOs are never destroyed with the new structures, they are going to asset safety, everything else not in your hangar is lost at destruction.

I'm my own NPC alt.

#4 - 2017-05-11 21:11:39 UTC
Thank you for the information. I saw in one of the videos that there are quite a few EC's and Citadels in HS, which confirms what you also said. It's nice to know you can negotiate with the owners as well. ;)

Appreciate the help.

Life is short. Have fun.

Evictus.
#5 - 2017-05-12 10:16:51 UTC
There are a few other considerations:

1. Killing a Citadel or EC is neither fun or profitable (unless someone pays you to do it). It requires 3 fleets over 8 days and asset safety means no loot - only salvage. Most Raitaru in highsec are completely undefended - an attacker needs to maintain the damage cap for 30 minutes each to take down shields, armor and hull. The structure owner gets to pick the vulnerability window so - weekday mornings a couple of hours before downtime when Europe is at work and America is sleeping will make it an even less attractive target.

2. Renting offices in someone elses structure is not safer- their structure can be killed just as easily as yours. I've also discovered that even large, well respected landlords with structures throughout New Eden occasionally forget to fuel them!

3. Public engineering complexes tend to be clustered near trade hubs. It's convenient but pushes up the system cost index. There are still lots of systems in highsec with a SCI of 0.1% if you're willing to travel a few extra jumps.

4. An unrigged Raitaru costs around 600 million plus 27 fuel blocks/hour if you install 3 service modules. Rigs are about 500 million each for 2% ME bonus (or a 20% TE bonus). You decide if you're building enough to justify that investment. In my case, an advanced component rig is worth it - the others aren't.

I admit that I miss my small POS. It was cheaper, burned less fuel, had better bonuses and was portable - but the game changed. Given a choice between adapt or die, I picked adapt.

Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-05-12 11:28:50 UTC
My experience so far is overall positive. The first two ECs I was using were killed about a month after inception, but I got a warning from the owner, so I could move my stuff (mostly prints and some small load of resources) without an issue. Since then (a couple of months now) my setup is stable, I'm using mainly 4 locations close to Jita, depending on the index and bonus I need. The only time I actually lost something, was the invention jobs I started before Xmas 2016 in Perimeter ... this was when PH started the crusade against free trade citadels.

Regarding the 0.1% SCI systems ... 0.1 means there were no jobs started in the last couple of month, but once you completed your first jobs in such system, the index will go up straight to ~2. If you are lucky, you find a public EC in such a system and can use it (once), then go to next for the new jobs. But for a permanent solution I would rather find a system with a lowish but stable index and an as low as possible index multiplier.

The caution I take is, talk to the owner, and try to fit jobs into the invulnerability time. This is not a big deal for me, as my production cycle does not exceed 48h most of the time anyway.

I'm my own NPC alt.

#7 - 2017-05-12 16:54:30 UTC
Do Little wrote:
There are a few other considerations:

1. Killing a Citadel or EC is neither fun or profitable (unless someone pays you to do it). It requires 3 fleets over 8 days and asset safety means no loot - only salvage. Most Raitaru in highsec are completely undefended - an attacker needs to maintain the damage cap for 30 minutes each to take down shields, armor and hull. The structure owner gets to pick the vulnerability window so - weekday mornings a couple of hours before downtime when Europe is at work and America is sleeping will make it an even less attractive target.

2. Renting offices in someone elses structure is not safer- their structure can be killed just as easily as yours. I've also discovered that even large, well respected landlords with structures throughout New Eden occasionally forget to fuel them!

3. Public engineering complexes tend to be clustered near trade hubs. It's convenient but pushes up the system cost index. There are still lots of systems in highsec with a SCI of 0.1% if you're willing to travel a few extra jumps.

4. An unrigged Raitaru costs around 600 million plus 27 fuel blocks/hour if you install 3 service modules. Rigs are about 500 million each for 2% ME bonus (or a 20% TE bonus). You decide if you're building enough to justify that investment. In my case, an advanced component rig is worth it - the others aren't.

I admit that I miss my small POS. It was cheaper, burned less fuel, had better bonuses and was portable - but the game changed. Given a choice between adapt or die, I picked adapt.



Haha! I love the idea about setting up the window based on convenience. How interesting that CCP has designed a structure that is basically a real pain to kill, and that drops no loot. I didn't quite put two and two together regarding the "safe move" until you brought it up. I have to admit I've been scratching my head at the number of these large structures I've seen in YouTube videos. "Why in the world are so many people willing to build something so expensive that can be so easily destroyed?" I had no idea there were three timers or that they payout was so low. My time in EVE is reminiscent of days filled with fear of wardecks and the loss of either the POS or the building materials / research time.

Yes, is it better to pay for your own fuel or depend on someone else to be conscientious? That is the real question. ;) Thanks!

Thanks for all the extra info about the Raitaru, SCI, and costs associated with setting one up.

Life is short. Have fun.

#8 - 2017-05-12 16:58:32 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
My experience so far is overall positive. The first two ECs I was using were killed about a month after inception, but I got a warning from the owner, so I could move my stuff (mostly prints and some small load of resources) without an issue. Since then (a couple of months now) my setup is stable, I'm using mainly 4 locations close to Jita, depending on the index and bonus I need. The only time I actually lost something, was the invention jobs I started before Xmas 2016 in Perimeter ... this was when PH started the crusade against free trade citadels.

Regarding the 0.1% SCI systems ... 0.1 means there were no jobs started in the last couple of month, but once you completed your first jobs in such system, the index will go up straight to ~2. If you are lucky, you find a public EC in such a system and can use it (once), then go to next for the new jobs. But for a permanent solution I would rather find a system with a lowish but stable index and an as low as possible index multiplier.

The caution I take is, talk to the owner, and try to fit jobs into the invulnerability time. This is not a big deal for me, as my production cycle does not exceed 48h most of the time anyway.


Thanks for the helpful information and strategy. Eve is a game where one may choose one's level of complexity / casual play mix. I also agree that it may be better to find a lightly traveled area and just set up shop while going for an average lower SCI. There are plenty of min/maxer's out there in EVE who will do anything to save on Isk.

Life is short. Have fun.

#9 - 2017-05-13 02:03:57 UTC
ECs are extremely specialised.

I have one Raitaru for ME/TE research and blueprint copying. That is *all* that Raitaru is actively good at, but it is considerably better at it than a POS would be.

I have a POS for everything else, and am considering establishing a second Raitaru that is dedicated to building tech 2 frigates and tech 2 modules, or maybe an Azbel for general production.

In any case, I will abuse public ECs for low value but long duration jobs. I'd rather mess up someone else's system index than mess up a system I have invested over a billion (Raitaru) or five times that (Azbel) in.

I'll research expensive prints (say a FAX BPO to ME 9/TE 12) in my own system, and cheap ones (say a 1600mm plate BPO to 10/20) in someone else's.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Renaissance Federation
#10 - 2017-05-14 01:48:50 UTC
Macker Momo wrote:
[
Haha! I love the idea about setting up the window based on convenience. How interesting that CCP has designed a structure that is basically a real pain to kill, and that drops no loot. I didn't quite put two and two together regarding the "safe move" until you brought it up. I have to admit I've been scratching my head at the number of these large structures I've seen in YouTube videos. "Why in the world are so many people willing to build something so expensive that can be so easily destroyed?" I had no idea there were three timers or that they payout was so low. My time in EVE is reminiscent of days filled with fear of wardecks and the loss of either the POS or the building materials / research time.

Yes, is it better to pay for your own fuel or depend on someone else to be conscientious? That is the real question. ;) Thanks!

Thanks for all the extra info about the Raitaru, SCI, and costs associated with setting one up.


Jobs in progress drop as loot so they don't drop any loot. I've seen a couple killmails where several billion isk value in the cooker dropped as loot, one i think was three jump freighters got aborted. Those are relatively rare though.
Warped Intentions
#11 - 2017-05-15 14:26:21 UTC
#12 - 2017-05-16 21:58:47 UTC
Thank you. Very helpful information. I'll see how things go for me later this summer or early Fall.

Life is short. Have fun.

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