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PI 102

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Rejection Of Sovereignty
#1 - 2017-05-17 08:57:37 UTC
Hello all, I recently found out about PI and being the lazy **** I am, I’m all for passiv(ish) incomes! Also, working as an accountant IRL, I’d rather be taking care of some sweet clever spreadsheet than go ratting to fund my idiotic activities in game.
As a result, I’m trying to figure out the best setup for a 3 account, 7 characters PI operation in sov null. I’m still in the process of training up the various alts with CC Upgrades 4 and Interplanetary Consolidation 4, while on my main industrialist char I already have CC Upgrades 5 and Interplanetary Consolidation 5 (this one is still in training tbh).

From what I read, the consensus seems to be to have some planets just do P1 (with a 1 Launchpad, 1 ECU, 9 Basic processors layout) and then one (a couple? Three?) factory planets with no extractors and P1-> P2 -> P3, possibly even P4 production process.
First of all, I’d like to ask if that’s corretct, as I sure as hell wouldn’t want to setup all my planets twice! I’m asking because I’ve read some people recommend doing P0->P2 on every planet, as that’s supposed to be an easier and more “babysitting light” method of doing PI, even if less lucrative.

Second order of business – assuming the initial statement is correct - would be the right proportion between P1 planets and factory planets. I’m still in the process of crunching the numbers making my own spreadsheet to figure out the needed inputs and such, for now I’d settle with just a general recommendation like “have 2 factory planets making P3!” or the like. Of course, as I’m totally new to PI, I had a look at some other people spreadsheets, and I came to the conclusion that making P4 doesn’t seem as profitable as P3 (at least in the last few days), so I think I’d settle with just making P3.

Third order of business: are there any benefits on doing the P1-P3 part on the CCU 5 character, or it's the same as doing it with a CCU 4 character?

Lastly, while I think I have a pretty good layout for P1 planets (well, it’s not that hard honestly), I have no idea on layouts beyond P1, so I’d appreciate some examples in this regard. Also, if you have any other quick and dirty tip you feel you want to share with a total beginner, I’ll take that too!
Thanks in advance for your help!
Evictus.
#2 - 2017-05-17 11:15:46 UTC
What do you intend to do with your PI? How much time are you willing to invest? Do you have "eyes" in each of the systems where you will be working?

7 characters with level 4 skills = 35 planets. This is not passive income. I have 5 characters doing PI in nullsec = 30 planets. 28 of these make P2 and 2 are factory. I update my programs every 2 days and collect P2 once a week. The factory planets need daily attention to deliver P2 and collect P3 & P4. It averages about 1 hour/day with an extra hour on weekends to optimize extractors. The result is roughly 1 billion worth of PI/week so ISK/hour is respectable.

Harvesting P0 would be a full time job - you'd be filling your storage units in a few hours and emptying the storage units on your factory planets just as fast. You'll also be depleting resources and moving extractors more often.

Harvesting P1 makes more sense but you would still need to collect it every day or two and a lot of fitting room on your factory planets would be used up by storage units even if you deliver material and collect finished goods every day.

For me, going to P2 on my resource planets makes sense - the additional time investment for optimum yield isn't worth it.

My planets are concentrated and I have characters living in the systems where I work so I can always see the system I'm jumping to. In nullsec, that's important - jumping blind, even if you hold sovereignty, can be fatal!

I also build my PI into products - drones, mobile structures, etc... It adds value and is a lot easier to ship - for example, a 10M3 Hammerhead 2 requires 36M3 of P3 to build.

Level 5 command center skill will let you put 6 basic and 3 advanced processors on a planet - potential yield 15 units of P2/hour. For me, it was worth training and my average yield for P2 is over 2000 units/planet/week
Rejection Of Sovereignty
#3 - 2017-05-17 12:34:09 UTC
Thank you for your answer, Do Little, you raise some good points.

Well first of all, I obviously intend to make a profit out of my PI activities, how much I cannot really tell now not having yet gathered the fruits of my work a single time: your numbers make me happy though. Big smile System shouldn't be a problem: most of said 7 chars will be dedicated PI alts, so basically living in the same system they get their resources from. Also, it's a quiet part of sov null with lots of different planets, so I don't really see a big problem there.

But one the "not passive income" part, you are definitely right: 1 hour babysitting a day isn't exactly the very definition of passive. Personally, I was planning on setting 48h extractor cycles and go actually grab my resources every 2 cycles, thus reducing the manteinance to *whatever it takes* every other day plus *whatever it takes + grabbing stuff around* once every 4 days: however, I don't know if that makes sense from a P1 production perspective, as I wouldn't want my deposits to fill up. I assumed I'd be fine with just 1 launchpad in every planet, but as I have yet to go check my yield I don't really know.

As for the building stuff with PI mats, I haven't really thought about it yet but you got me interested. Can you recommend me a site to check what builds what?
Evictus.
#4 - 2017-05-17 15:51:13 UTC
Basic processors make 15.2 M3 of P1 every hour. You can build enough of them on each planet to fill your launchpad in less than 4 days.

Factory planets are the real issue. They will empty your launchpads in 1 day! Make sure you thoroughly understand how expedited transfers work before designing your factory planet - they have a lengthy cooldown and you can't route between storage devices so moving stuff between launchpads and storage units requires careful planning.

Refreshing your programs requires at least a half dozen clicks per planet - more if you reposition extractor heads (and you will) - I allow an hour for 30 planets. Sometimes I make no changes and it goes faster, sometimes new deposits have spawned and I need to move my extractors and refresh my routes which takes quite a bit longer.

My favorite PI website https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Planetary_Commodities It gives you a list of what you can make with each commodity in the right column. The bill of material and profitability site I use is https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/
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#5 - 2017-05-17 20:33:00 UTC
Duck Troland wrote:
Thank you for your answer, Do Little, you raise some good points.

Well first of all, I obviously intend to make a profit out of my PI activities, how much I cannot really tell now not having yet gathered the fruits of my work a single time: your numbers make me happy though. Big smile System shouldn't be a problem: most of said 7 chars will be dedicated PI alts, so basically living in the same system they get their resources from. Also, it's a quiet part of sov null with lots of different planets, so I don't really see a big problem there.

But one the "not passive income" part, you are definitely right: 1 hour babysitting a day isn't exactly the very definition of passive. Personally, I was planning on setting 48h extractor cycles and go actually grab my resources every 2 cycles, thus reducing the manteinance to *whatever it takes* every other day plus *whatever it takes + grabbing stuff around* once every 4 days: however, I don't know if that makes sense from a P1 production perspective, as I wouldn't want my deposits to fill up. I assumed I'd be fine with just 1 launchpad in every planet, but as I have yet to go check my yield I don't really know.

As for the building stuff with PI mats, I haven't really thought about it yet but you got me interested. Can you recommend me a site to check what builds what?

evegadgets.com will allow you to set up your PI "on paper" to see exactly what you can do with your planet capacity, as well as an idea of the profits involved. Additionally, I strongly recommend not going any higher than P1 on your extraction planets. Strictly P1 on extraction planets allow you to set longer and more extraction cycles before having to reset the ECU's location. The other benefit is that you have lower taxes as well by exporting/importing P1. https://util.eveuniversity.org/PiBear/SystemLookup.php will also tell you what's possible if you utilized everything in a single system.


@dolittle you're mistaken on a couple things. At optimal extraction, a launchpad is filled in ~3 days. You double that if you add a storage facility and shunt inventory over. Also, you can in fact reduce expedited transfer cooldowns if you upgrade the link(s) between them.
#6 - 2017-05-18 21:41:54 UTC
my standard PI copypasta.....
Quote:
http://imgur.com/a/nzmjR
The top one is a six P1 input -> P3 factory planet (Gel Matrix Biopaste in this instance). Put ~13k of each required P1 into launchpads in pairs. Route out and back for P2, then the centre three factories make the P3. Can run for two days with full hoppers.
The bottom two are P1-P2 factories. These run for about a day before needing feeding again.

http://imgur.com/a/8d4Zs
This is a four P1 input -> P3 factory planet.
The Red and Yellow sections draw from the launchpads to produce a P2, which routes back evenly to the launchpads. The blue factories down the centre draw P2 and spit out P3. Runs for two days.

With all of these, build from the centre out. They require CCU V.

http://imgur.com/a/qOgq0
Extraction -> P1 facility, can be built with CCU IV.


Two other tips:
1: Always route to and from a buffer.
2: Try to minimise time spent gamboling around in an Epithal.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Rejection Of Sovereignty
#7 - 2017-05-19 12:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Duck Troland
Quote:
evegadgets.com will allow you to set up your PI "on paper" to see exactly what you can do with your planet capacity, as well as an idea of the profits involved. Additionally, I strongly recommend not going any higher than P1 on your extraction planets. Strictly P1 on extraction planets allow you to set longer and more extraction cycles before having to reset the ECU's location. The other benefit is that you have lower taxes as well by exporting/importing P1. https://util.eveuniversity.org/PiBear/SystemLookup.php will also tell you what's possible if you utilized everything in a single system.

@dolittle you're mistaken on a couple things. At optimal extraction, a launchpad is filled in ~3 days. You double that if you add a storage facility and shunt inventory over. Also, you can in fact reduce expedited transfer cooldowns if you upgrade the link(s) between them.


Quote:
my standard PI copypasta.....


Yay, thanks all for the very good inputs!

Since my first post I've moved a bit ahead, meaning I got to harvest my stuff for the first time and I even setup a P1->P3 planet. Some more calculations are due mainly because of the volumes involved (specifically: know any good PI input/output calculators? I'm building mine off, but would rather avoid errors in this first phase, if possibile), but what really got me thinking is the seeming unprofitability of making P4 stuff. Reading around, I heard that the main selling point is the reduced volume to haul around which makes logistics easier, and that's all good, but aside from that is there any reason at all to do P4 and not stop at P3?

EDIT. Also, one more question as I'd very much like to plan my PI stuff while being payed by my employer (ie: at work) and not get fired in the process: how long do cycles last? It is my understanding that the P0 extraction cycle time (meaning: the time it takes for one ECU with X heads to complete a batch, not the whole cycle timer that you get to choose) depends on the total cycle time and is a multiple of 15 mins: for example, if I recall correctly, it should be 15 mins when the total timer is set to an hour, and in the 30 mins when the timer is set to 1-2 days. A batch of P1 production would take 30 mins, and a batch of P2/P3 1 hour, is that correct? How about P4? Sorry to ask here, but I can't seem to find the relevant information anywhere.
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#8 - 2017-05-19 23:36:07 UTC
Ideal extraction run times are 1D0H30M (153m cycles) and 2-3 days (30m to 1hr cycles). Use 24hr intervals so that PI is an end of day sort of thing.

As for P4 vs P3, the other concern to bear in mind is that there are differing market volumes, which can determine what you make.
#9 - 2017-05-20 12:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Been a while since I have posted about PI, however I have done a lot of it.

In SOV null you can make a decent passive income.

The highest income will come from running P1 planets and hauling to a factory planet, However, This will require picking up your P1 products and Hauling them to the factory planet, every day, possibly twice a day, if you are in really good space, to keep your operation running non stop. this will take up a lot of your time.

A set up making P2 or P3 on each individual planet is far less maintenance.

My basic set up is two extractors, feeding 4 P1 factories, which in turn feed two P2 factories. In really good space with maxed skills you may be able to pull off a 3/6/3 set up, but the basic 2/4/2 is very low maintenance.

You want to set up factories in a starburst pattern around a Launchpad, with everything going to the launch pad they routed from there to the factories. the basic formula is each P1 factory needs 6000 units of P0 per hour. The output of 2 30 minute P1 cycles is equal to the required input for 1 60 minute P2 cycle. So basically for each P2 factory you need two P1 factory's(1 for each input). And in turn each P3 requires 1dedicated P2 factory for each required input.

I personally run 1 day 45 min programs, that I reset every day. As it gives 15 minute cycles which reduces the load on links eliminating the need for upgraded links leaving more CPU/PG for facilities.

This setup requires resetting Planet extractors every day, but you only need to travel to the planets once the launch pads are full to haul the products out. For me running PI in low sec, this generally requires 2 hauling runs per week. As apposed to 1-2 runs every day with a factory planet setup.

The reason for limiting extraction to ~6000 units per P1 factory is to prevent the launch pad from filling up with P0 mats leaving more room for final products.

This setup is easily sustainable as you can reset planets from anywhere, you do not have to be in system until you do your hauling runs.

P.S. do not neglect the survey and planetology skills. These are very important.

When you set up extractors the output numbers you see are based on your "survey" of the planet. the accuracy of the survey depends on planetology skills. You will not see the actual output until after you install the program. If you have poor planetology skills you could see 12000-13000 average per hour output when placing extractor heads, and then only 8000-9000 actual average output after you click submit.

P.S.S. I have found making mats for fuel blocks to be the most reliable income. other P3 and P4 products can have very unpredictable markets.
#10 - 2017-05-20 12:34:39 UTC
Duck Troland wrote:
Quote:
evegadgets.com will allow you to set up your PI "on paper" to see exactly what you can do with your planet capacity, as well as an idea of the profits involved. Additionally, I strongly recommend not going any higher than P1 on your extraction planets. Strictly P1 on extraction planets allow you to set longer and more extraction cycles before having to reset the ECU's location. The other benefit is that you have lower taxes as well by exporting/importing P1. https://util.eveuniversity.org/PiBear/SystemLookup.php will also tell you what's possible if you utilized everything in a single system.

@dolittle you're mistaken on a couple things. At optimal extraction, a launchpad is filled in ~3 days. You double that if you add a storage facility and shunt inventory over. Also, you can in fact reduce expedited transfer cooldowns if you upgrade the link(s) between them.


Quote:
my standard PI copypasta.....


Yay, thanks all for the very good inputs!

Since my first post I've moved a bit ahead, meaning I got to harvest my stuff for the first time and I even setup a P1->P3 planet. Some more calculations are due mainly because of the volumes involved (specifically: know any good PI input/output calculators? I'm building mine off, but would rather avoid errors in this first phase, if possibile), but what really got me thinking is the seeming unprofitability of making P4 stuff. Reading around, I heard that the main selling point is the reduced volume to haul around which makes logistics easier, and that's all good, but aside from that is there any reason at all to do P4 and not stop at P3?

EDIT. Also, one more question as I'd very much like to plan my PI stuff while being payed by my employer (ie: at work) and not get fired in the process: how long do cycles last? It is my understanding that the P0 extraction cycle time (meaning: the time it takes for one ECU with X heads to complete a batch, not the whole cycle timer that you get to choose) depends on the total cycle time and is a multiple of 15 mins: for example, if I recall correctly, it should be 15 mins when the total timer is set to an hour, and in the 30 mins when the timer is set to 1-2 days. A batch of P1 production would take 30 mins, and a batch of P2/P3 1 hour, is that correct? How about P4? Sorry to ask here, but I can't seem to find the relevant information anywhere.


The only real benefit of making P4 is the volume you need to haul. If you are deep into null, making P4 reduces overall profit, but massively reduces volume you need to haul ass well. hauling from deep null to Jita for example, 1 Load of P4 rather than 8-10 loads of P2 or P3. Number of trips can be a big factor.
#11 - 2017-05-20 22:19:03 UTC
Duck Troland wrote:
EDIT. Also, one more question as I'd very much like to plan my PI stuff while being payed by my employer (ie: at work) and not get fired in the process: how long do cycles last? It is my understanding that the P0 extraction cycle time (meaning: the time it takes for one ECU with X heads to complete a batch, not the whole cycle timer that you get to choose) depends on the total cycle time and is a multiple of 15 mins: for example, if I recall correctly, it should be 15 mins when the total timer is set to an hour, and in the 30 mins when the timer is set to 1-2 days. A batch of P1 production would take 30 mins, and a batch of P2/P3 1 hour, is that correct? How about P4? Sorry to ask here, but I can't seem to find the relevant information anywhere.


My extraction planets run on 2d1h30m programs. with two launchpads to fill up, i only need to actually visit the POCO once a week'ish. My factory planets all run for around two days with full hoppers, you can use the POCO itself for additional storage, stretching out the time between visits.

Build up a decent'ish buffer of P1 inputs and you'll (mostly) keep the factories turning over. Taking some time to plan things out so you minimise time spent in an Epithal is A Good Thing(tm).

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

The Bastion
#12 - 2017-06-01 16:56:05 UTC
Do Little wrote:
What do you intend to do with your PI? How much time are you willing to invest? Do you have "eyes" in each of the systems where you will be working?

7 characters with level 4 skills = 35 planets. This is not passive income. I have 5 characters doing PI in nullsec = 30 planets. 28 of these make P2 and 2 are factory. I update my programs every 2 days and collect P2 once a week. The factory planets need daily attention to deliver P2 and collect P3 & P4. It averages about 1 hour/day with an extra hour on weekends to optimize extractors. The result is roughly 1 billion worth of PI/week so ISK/hour is respectable.

Harvesting P0 would be a full time job - you'd be filling your storage units in a few hours and emptying the storage units on your factory planets just as fast. You'll also be depleting resources and moving extractors more often.

Harvesting P1 makes more sense but you would still need to collect it every day or two and a lot of fitting room on your factory planets would be used up by storage units even if you deliver material and collect finished goods every day.

For me, going to P2 on my resource planets makes sense - the additional time investment for optimum yield isn't worth it.

My planets are concentrated and I have characters living in the systems where I work so I can always see the system I'm jumping to. In nullsec, that's important - jumping blind, even if you hold sovereignty, can be fatal!

I also build my PI into products - drones, mobile structures, etc... It adds value and is a lot easier to ship - for example, a 10M3 Hammerhead 2 requires 36M3 of P3 to build.

Level 5 command center skill will let you put 6 basic and 3 advanced processors on a planet - potential yield 15 units of P2/hour. For me, it was worth training and my average yield for P2 is over 2000 units/planet/week


Well written.
I'm planning on going lvl 5 command center to do the 6 basic/3advance processor. It is almost impossible to have the perfect balance of 18 000 units of p0 / h to balance to feed the 6 basic processor. How do you handle excess of p0 slowly filling your spaceport overtime? Just curious.
thanks
thanks
#13 - 2017-06-12 08:16:43 UTC
Do Little wrote:

Harvesting P0 would be a full time job - you'd be filling your storage units in a few hours and emptying the storage units on your factory planets just as fast. You'll also be depleting resources and moving extractors more often.
Being too aggressive with you extractors dose deplete your hotspots forcing you to move everything around and extended your lines and constant maintaince. I stick to a longer runs cycles and only check on them once a week or so, I don't have to move my extractors much.

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