Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
 

The Dodixie Stock Exchange Experiment

Author
#1 - 2017-05-18 19:27:48 UTC
I have seen different threads over the years asking for development of a Eve Stock Market so Corps can use the shares they have available should they choose to issue them. I have mulled this idea over and over again in the last decade plus and haven't been able to figure out the 'perfect' system that could be implemented. That said, here is my effort to offer an idea.


This experiment forms a stock exchange based at the Dodixie Hub. Working name: The DodiX

To qualify to be listed on our exchange you must comply with the following:
-Your Corp must be 3-years old or older.
-Your Corp CEO must be 3-years old or older.
-Your Corp must provide FULL API access for use with jEveAssets. We will NEVER share this information with anyone.
-Your Corp must maintain an agreed minimum balance in their Corporate Wallets. This is a reserve requirement and determined by the DodiX. This liquidity is just one factor in our overall evaluation of your Corporation.
-Your Corp must declare intentions to keep shares privately held or open a fixed number of shares for public sale.
-Your Corp must declare all outstanding shares of stock and must also report to DodiX any time additional shares are offered/sold.
-Manipulation of your Corporation stock prices through exploitation of market orders is forbidden.
-Your Corp pays a monthly listing fee of 20m ISK (minimum 6-mo subscription) to maintain the stock listing of your company.
-Failure to comply with ANY rules may lead to the removal of your Corporation from the Exchange.

Obviously as we go along we will find stuff that works and stuff that sucks. There will be fraud, scammers and cheating. Just like Enron cooked the books and Bernie Made-Off with the money we will see shenanigans forever in the world of Eve. I know there are better ways to approach this but I wanted to at least provide a start. We don't act as a middleman in stock trades but rather display the financials we have available to prospective stock buyers. Caveat emptor

Dodixie Stock Exchange Website

Thoughts???

CEO-ICT World Bank

ICT World Bank Website

public channel: ICT World Bank Info

Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2017-05-18 20:11:25 UTC
Ortafius wrote:
I have seen different threads over the years asking for development of a Eve Stock Market so Corps can use the shares they have available should they choose to issue them. I have mulled this idea over and over again in the last decade plus and haven't been able to figure out the 'perfect' system that could be implemented. That said, here is my effort to offer an idea.


This experiment forms a stock exchange based at the Dodixie Hub. Working name: The DodiX

To qualify to be listed on our exchange you must comply with the following:
-Your Corp must be 3-years old or older.
-Your Corp CEO must be 3-years old or older.
-Your Corp must provide FULL API access for use with jEveAssets. We will NEVER share this information with anyone.
-Your Corp must maintain an agreed minimum balance in their Corporate Wallets. This is a reserve requirement and determined by the DodiX. This liquidity is just one factor in our overall evaluation of your Corporation.
-Your Corp must declare intentions to keep shares privately held or open a fixed number of shares for public sale.
-Your Corp must declare all outstanding shares of stock and must also report to DodiX any time additional shares are offered/sold.
-Manipulation of your Corporation stock prices through exploitation of market orders is forbidden.
-Your Corp pays a monthly listing fee of 20m ISK (minimum 6-mo subscription) to maintain the stock listing of your company.
-Failure to comply with ANY rules may lead to the removal of your Corporation from the Exchange.

Obviously as we go along we will find stuff that works and stuff that sucks. There will be fraud, scammers and cheating. Just like Enron cooked the books and Bernie Made-Off with the money we will see shenanigans forever in the world of Eve. I know there are better ways to approach this but I wanted to at least provide a start. We don't act as a middleman in stock trades but rather display the financials we have available to prospective stock buyers. Caveat emptor

Dodixie Stock Exchange Website

Thoughts???



Time for a new scam I guess.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#3 - 2017-05-18 20:13:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:



Time for a new scam I guess.


And how does the scam work? Who is the scammer? Can you be more specific?

CEO-ICT World Bank

ICT World Bank Website

public channel: ICT World Bank Info

#4 - 2017-05-18 22:18:04 UTC
Made me laugh, good joke.
#5 - 2017-05-18 22:25:17 UTC
wrong forum m8 but do let us know how many fall for it
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2017-05-18 22:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Ortafius wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:



Time for a new scam I guess.


And how does the scam work? Who is the scammer? Can you be more specific?


Sigh...

We just had a thread on this as to why a stock exchange cannot work in New Eden. Basically, there is institutions that allow one to emerge. It will have to be imposed from the top down by CCP with them acting as the arbitrator of any and all disputes.

Any and all attempts to introduce some sort of financial market will eventually devolve into nothing more than a scam. Anyone getting involved should do so planning on having all of their ISK that they put into the scheme stolen from them sooner or later.

As for a specific example, look here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#7 - 2017-05-18 23:16:12 UTC
The aim is to take the financial information based on the API from the corp and post the financial information from the members of the exchange for others to see. Yes, I see where the Corporations could scam and the CEOs could take off with the monies collected from the sale of the shares.

In order to be listed on the exchange there needs to be criteria to follow to weed out the potential scammers and deny their listing on the exchange. Always knowing there is no guarantee.

What pieces of information do we have available to us to make a half-assed determination as to the credibility of a Corporation and the CEO/Management? I thought if a Corp was at least 3 years old I would have some history to add to the financial information to help determine if the Corp was credible enough to list. I also thought the CEO should be at least 3 years old. Not foolproof but it is a start. Maybe it should be 5 years..new corporations wouldn't be eligible for listing.

In real life I held a series 7 brokerage license starting back in the 90's until retiring a few years ago. So this type of stuff is of interest to me. The economics of Eve is what got me hooked back in 2004 even with the broken/non-existent stock functions. The exchange will not be involved in the trading of shares nor collection of ISK. We are not collecting a commission for any trades. Never acting as the middleman in a trade. The exchange is simply aggregating the data from jEveAssets, checking the background of the Corp and its principals as best as possible given the limitations, then posting the findings at the website as a price per share based on current assets and shares of stock outstanding. All shares outstanding should be maintained as "public record" including the owners. Any trades of those shares should be registered and tracked. I can tell from a few of the responses that this is a very negative subject and ripe for ridicule. That said, I am going to try to get a half dozen or a dozen Dodixie area Corps to apply for listing of their Corps. Put each of them through the screening process and then track everything for a few months to see if it is workable.

CEO-ICT World Bank

ICT World Bank Website

public channel: ICT World Bank Info

#8 - 2017-05-18 23:22:33 UTC
But scam.
Because CEO's can just invent new shares as long as they keep majority. And if they don't keep majority all their assets can be stolen
So which way the scam goes depends on the CEO and what they know.
#9 - 2017-05-18 23:25:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
But scam.
Because CEO's can just invent new shares as long as they keep majority. And if they don't keep majority all their assets can be stolen
So which way the scam goes depends on the CEO and what they know.



Correct, so scrutiny must be give to the CEO as well as the Corp when determining if they should be listed. I see there are a few vets posting here. Maybe a few of you would be willing to be on the review board and help me determine if a Corp should be listed or not?

CEO-ICT World Bank

ICT World Bank Website

public channel: ICT World Bank Info

#10 - 2017-05-18 23:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Ortafius wrote:
The aim is to take the financial information based on the API from the corp and post the financial information from the members of the exchange for others to see. Yes, I see where the Corporations could scam and the CEOs could take off with the monies collected from the sale of the shares.

In order to be listed on the exchange there needs to be criteria to follow to weed out the potential scammers and deny their listing on the exchange. Always knowing there is no guarantee.

What pieces of information do we have available to us to make a half-assed determination as to the credibility of a Corporation and the CEO/Management? I thought if a Corp was at least 3 years old I would have some history to add to the financial information to help determine if the Corp was credible enough to list. I also thought the CEO should be at least 3 years old. Not foolproof but it is a start. Maybe it should be 5 years..new corporations wouldn't be eligible for listing.

In real life I held a series 7 brokerage license starting back in the 90's until retiring a few years ago. So this type of stuff is of interest to me. The economics of Eve is what got me hooked back in 2004 even with the broken/non-existent stock functions. The exchange will not be involved in the trading of shares nor collection of ISK. We are not collecting a commission for any trades. Never acting as the middleman in a trade. The exchange is simply aggregating the data from jEveAssets, checking the background of the Corp and its principals as best as possible given the limitations, then posting the findings at the website as a price per share based on current assets and shares of stock outstanding. All shares outstanding should be maintained as "public record" including the owners. Any trades of those shares should be registered and tracked. I can tell from a few of the responses that this is a very negative subject and ripe for ridicule. That said, I am going to try to get a half dozen or a dozen Dodixie area Corps to apply for listing of their Corps. Put each of them through the screening process and then track everything for a few months to see if it is workable.


As someone who works in financial services, if you've ever actually worked there you'd know how ridiculous this sounds. You would know how much regulation is needed to keep people from scamming people. The series 7 lets you execute trades, not regulate and prevent people from exploiting the system. This is from someone with a series 7, 27, and 24.

There's zero chance you're doing anything but trying to scam people. Good luck, I guess.

How can I trust you, given there are no repercussions for you lying about all of this? That's the material difference between EVE and real life. IRL you can go to jail for a long time, in EVE you just roll a new account and keep doing the same thing. Comparing EVE's economy to a real life stock exchange is impossible, and a bit naive.
#11 - 2017-05-19 00:23:11 UTC
Ortafius wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
But scam.
Because CEO's can just invent new shares as long as they keep majority. And if they don't keep majority all their assets can be stolen
So which way the scam goes depends on the CEO and what they know.



Correct, so scrutiny must be give to the CEO as well as the Corp when determining if they should be listed. I see there are a few vets posting here. Maybe a few of you would be willing to be on the review board and help me determine if a Corp should be listed or not?


lol i like a challenge. you actually get this set up and i'll help you
#12 - 2017-05-19 01:09:55 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:


As someone who works in financial services, if you've ever actually worked there you'd know how ridiculous this sounds. You would know how much regulation is needed to keep people from scamming people. The series 7 lets you execute trades, not regulate and prevent people from exploiting the system. This is from someone with a series 7, 27, and 24.

There's zero chance you're doing anything but trying to scam people. Good luck, I guess.

How can I trust you, given there are no repercussions for you lying about all of this? That's the material difference between EVE and real life. IRL you can go to jail for a long time, in EVE you just roll a new account and keep doing the same thing. Comparing EVE's economy to a real life stock exchange is impossible, and a bit naive.


What if we had a review board for each Corporate listing. Maybe a 3 or 5 person board. I wouldn't be on it but why couldn't you be on it? I would present the financial reports from the jEveAsset info to the board. Based on the financial information, the longevity and reputation of the Corp and CEO/Management as well as any intangibles you feel were relevant, you either approve or deny their application to be listed. Majority needed for listing to be approved. If listing is denied then board would identify what would need to change to be approved (if even possible). Your comment that "There's zero chance you're doing anything but trying to scam people" doesn't say how I intend to scam people. Why not be on the board and keep an eye on me...or tell me what and how I am running a scam here. If you could be specific I would be happy to address it (if I already haven't) and we can put a procedure in place to avoid it. Little by little the experiment moves along.

CEO-ICT World Bank

ICT World Bank Website

public channel: ICT World Bank Info

Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-05-19 05:05:27 UTC
Ortafius wrote:
The aim is to take the financial information based on the API from the corp and post the financial information from the members of the exchange for others to see. Yes, I see where the Corporations could scam and the CEOs could take off with the monies collected from the sale of the shares.

In order to be listed on the exchange there needs to be criteria to follow to weed out the potential scammers and deny their listing on the exchange. Always knowing there is no guarantee.


You have no way to do this though. Everyone who has a 3 year old corp will have an incentive to use it to scam. So what if you black ball Teckos Pech, I take the money and create a new character, buy a 3 year old corp and do it again, and you won't be able to stop me from doing it.

IRL, people do have legal recourse and there are severe legal penalties for bad actors. In EVE there are no severe legal penalties such as forced incarceration....what you have to log in and sit at your keyboard for 8 hours a week doing nothing but staring at the screen? How are you going to enforce that?

Good luck with this, but if you are not running this as a scam others will and it will go pretty much right down the crapper.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Evictus.
#14 - 2017-05-19 12:04:32 UTC
In a game where scamming is a legitimate, if not honorable, profession it will be difficult to operate a trust based securities business. Without collateral there is no security since a CEO can transfer every corporate asset to an ALT and shut down the corporation whenever they want. These days, a free Alpha character can be CEO of a corporation. As every prospectus will tell you - past performance does not predict future returns.

A real stock market works because there is trust in the value of the underlying assets - you can still get burned (Enron) but people go to jail when it happens (Madoff) so it doesn't happen often. In Eve there are no consequences. For a scammer it's "heads I win, tails I break even". What is the loss scenario that would prevent (or at least limit) scamming?
#15 - 2017-05-19 19:54:11 UTC
I see that several of you have received tons of likes for your posts which leads me to believe you are credible Eve gamers.

Are you telling me you can't think of 2 to 4 Corps/CEOs that you feel are honest enough to participate in this experiment? I realize that Eve has it's share of dishonest pilots out there but is it the vast majority? We couldn't come up with a review process that limited abuse by Corps? Be very very limiting at accepting Corps for listing. Have a review board of 5 that could include some of you here. Once a Corp applies to be listed on the Exchange, we take the API data and do our best to verify what information we have. If you, as a board member are just not comfortable with the Corp that is applying then vote NO. Maybe establish a probation period where we monitor their financials over a few month period before listing them on the exchange.

I agree this is not an easy endeavor, in fact it is very hard....it has a good chance of failing miserably too. But maybe there will be some good ideas that spawn from it. Maybe it would show CCP that there is enough effort and passion in the Eve Community to develop an aspect of the game that CCP really should be developing. No, we can't penalize nor fine people for dishonest behavior either and simply removing their listing from the exchange will deter nothing.

Would any of you be will to lend me a small amount of time to be on a review board?
We get the submissions from Corps wanting to be listed on the exchange. Retrieve their API data as well as current CEO and other information available for as much of a background check as we can do. The review board does their digging as well and decides by majority, super majority or unanimous vote if a Corp should be listed or not. We may lack enough information to make you comfortable voting YES...vote NO and offer a reason and the possibility of a Corp reapplying at a future date, again we could put them on probation until time to reapply.

CEO-ICT World Bank

ICT World Bank Website

public channel: ICT World Bank Info

#16 - 2017-05-19 21:56:25 UTC
Ortafius wrote:
What if we had a review board for each Corporate listing. Maybe a 3 or 5 person board. I wouldn't be on it but why couldn't you be on it? I would present the financial reports from the jEveAsset info to the board. Based on the financial information, the longevity and reputation of the Corp and CEO/Management as well as any intangibles you feel were relevant, you either approve or deny their application to be listed. Majority needed for listing to be approved. If listing is denied then board would identify what would need to change to be approved (if even possible). Your comment that "There's zero chance you're doing anything but trying to scam people" doesn't say how I intend to scam people. Why not be on the board and keep an eye on me...or tell me what and how I am running a scam here. If you could be specific I would be happy to address it (if I already haven't) and we can put a procedure in place to avoid it. Little by little the experiment moves along.


Tell me what the repercussions are for those 3-5 people in game if they do something wrong. How are you going to keep them from ever playing EVE again when they game the system? How will you keep that banned player from just using a new IP? A virtual machine? A friends account? How will you enforce corps being honest about the information they feed? How will you prevent them from using out of corp alts to hide information?
#17 - 2017-05-19 22:05:18 UTC
I think you're missing the point there young Jedi... Shares IRL and "shares" in this game... do not work like each other.

Shareholders IRL in a REAL company physically OWN a piece of a company... more shares cannot be created without a majority ruling by the majority stockholders. There are HUNDREDS of checks and balances to be had to keep the shareholders in line and stop them from devolving into a financial crap storm.

The PRIMARY DIFFERENCE between this game's "shares" and IRL Shares... is the IRL Shares have a DOLLAR value... Each one costs money to own, sell, buy, and create... each share in an IRL company has a physical and tangible monetary value per each share... and the creation of MORE shares devalues the value of each previous share and all subsequent shares that are created afterwards. This generally pisses off shareholders.

You can't just TAKE shares from a shareholder IRL without a court order or a death.

In this game... these things just simply do not exist.

And as such... this "new" system you and hundreds of others have come up with in various ways... just simply cannot exist... simply because the IRL equivalents... CAN'T exist. :-)

Best Regards,
SGT Funyoun.

P.S. I had wanted this once too... but then someone explained this to me. :-/
#18 - 2017-05-19 22:40:51 UTC
Do not listen to them worst that happens for you is you waist a bit of time. Go out and fibs those willing to join you!
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