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Incursion fixes/feedback thread

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C C P Alliance
#1 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:18  |  Edited by: CCP Navigator
Hi,

I'm making this thread on behalf of CCP Bettik, who is a very shy and retiring dev and doesn't like to post much on the forums Smile

As mentioned in the CSM minutes, we're looking into making various adjustments to Incursions in the coming months.

This thread is primarily to collect suggestions for "little things"-style fixes we can make to Incursions to make the user experience better.

Additionally, if you have any especially well thought-out feedback about the feature as a whole, and particularly about specific things you feel are wrong with the current implementation, go ahead and share those too!

CCP Bettik will be reading every single page of this thread in the coming weeks, but he doesn't like to make the posts - don't worry if there's a lack of visible dev presence in the thread, your opinions will be heard regardless Smile

Thanks for listening,
-Greyscale
#2 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:20
delete highsec
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:22
Make the entire region of Stain one big incursion, just to see what happens.
Clockwork Pineapple
#4 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:23
put the whole bloody mess on a timer
#5 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:24  |  Edited by: Joe SMASH
Reduce payouts across the board. Bring vanguard sites down to level 4 mission (ISK/hr) payouts (per member of fleet).

Anyone else who complains about people killing the Mom are ignorant to the way incursions were supposed to be run. Farming vanguards w/o giving thought to killing the mom to extend the incursion as long as possible is nothing short of an exploit that should be fixed.
#6 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:25  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Remove isk rewards entirely, increase LP payout and stop spawning/despawn any sites once the mom has spawned.
You know... morons.
#7 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:29
I appreciate what you're trying to do, CCP Grayscale, but you do know that this thread will only draw every single troll, incursion-hater, and whining incursion-runner that have until now been starting their own threads, right? I don't expect very much "thoughtful" discussion, myself.

However, I will contribute what is my layman's perspective (never having run incursions). The main issue appears to be people being able to "extend" incursions to farm Vanguard sites over and over, which have very high payout. For an activity done in high-sec, and with little risk of losing your ship to unexpected circumstances (no PvP), the amount of money is too high. "Too high" as in "higher than most other activities in all regions of space, including those with a significant degree of risk of sudden pew pew".

A simple fix would be to have incursions "dry up". CONCORD doesn't print money just to pay capsuleers (hopefully) and it makes no sense for Sansha to keep sending troops into the meatgrinder of Vanguard sites if they are getting utterly destroyed. Have the CONCORD rewards for a particular site decrease with the number of those types of sites that have been run in the incursion, or have the number of site spawns decrease. That would give people a reason to kill the mothership and allow a new incursion to respawn elsewhere.

Sorry I can't offer "little things", as I don't do incursions myself yet. I just trained Logi though, so who knows, I might get into it.
Rifterlings - newbie-friendly swashbuckling corp ("weflyrifters" in-game channel). Join today! www.rifterlings.com

Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com
#8 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:33
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Remove isk rewards entirely, increase LP payout and stop spawning/despawn any sites once the mom has spawned.


100% this.

Remove all ISK payouts for incursion rats, bump up LP significantly. No ISK is created and the LP can then be spent to make cash the normal way.

Once the Mom is in play, all sites stop spawning.
Pasta Syndicate
#9 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:35  |  Edited by: Krissada
Thank you, CCP.

Deploy incursion fixes in batches of two (the first being able to be applied quickly).

1. Reduce vanguard payouts by 15-20 % and boost assault and headquarter payouts by 20 %.

2. Do everything you discussed in the CSM minutes.

3. Include a more "battlefield" sense in the incursion constellation. Make it much more insecure than it is already.
Have all systems continous respawn of rats on gates/stations/planets on a set timer much like rats in an asteroid belt.
Have these rats scale with the difficulty of the system.

- I am aware you currently have Sansha spawn on the gates at the beginning of the incursion, but please make them respawn.


Yours truly and again thank you for listening to us,
Krissada

PS: Payout balancing cannot happen soon enough.
Nulli Secunda
#10 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:35  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
reduce ISK payment

increase LP payment (and improve LP shop !!) (some LP from the locals could be a nice addition)

20/40 player sites should always have a bigger income than 10 player sites

add some variability

make sure more ships will pop when players fail (high alpha is not the way to do this !)

a role for new players might be a cool addition
GRRR Goons
#11 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:41
Thank you.

Increase variability to add risk. Remove ability to blitz sites.
Make the rewards from incursions add something to the game beyond isk. Make the reward primarily LP, meaning that incursions runners could provide a service to the rest of the player base with those rewards just like every other form of PvE.
Also, please fix POS.
#12 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:47
Reduce payouts ( no brainer).
Lowsec:Most Incursion spawns being in Low-sec as well as highest paying, Low Sec needs something. This is a good start.
Null: Incursion spawns should be rare.
Empire: normal spawn rate but with the lowest payout.
......................................................
Naquatech Syndicate
#13 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:49
Joe SMASH wrote:
Reduce payouts across the board. Bring vanguard sites down to level 4 mission (ISK/hr) payouts (per member of fleet).

Anyone else who complains about people killing the Mom are ignorant to the way incursions were supposed to be run. Farming vanguards w/o giving thought to killing the mom to extend the incursion as long as possible is nothing short of an exploit that should be fixed.


Large Collidable Object wrote:
Remove isk rewards entirely, increase LP payout and stop spawning/despawn any sites once the mom has spawned.



Something like that
Pandemic Legion
#14 Posted: 2012.01.23 16:55  |  Edited by: Alicia Fermi
- Adjust the vanguard sites so that they cannot be blitzed quite so easily by shiny fleets. As an example, you should have to do more than pop the three Deltoles in an OTA.

- Lower the vanguard rewards slightly and increase the rewards of the bigger sites. This in conjunction with slowing down the shiny fleets is aimed at reducing the more silly ISK/hour fleets without unduly affecting the less shiny. That said, they should still pay more per hour than a level 4 mission: group play has to mean something.

- Variation in waves of NPCs.

- Spread out the sites through the constellation if possible. We do not want all the fleets crammed into the same vanguard/assault systems but flying all over looking for sites to complete.

- Scout sites could do with attention. They are useless and should be something the newbies can get their teeth into in small fleets.

- Rats on gates. (DOOOOO EEEEEET)

Edit:
I would not go all LP. People incursioning are not missioning or ratting so there needs to be some ISK flow to keep things constant as you lose out on bounties that would otherwise be generated. Nor does the incursion need to stop spawning sites after the mothership appears, there is already a solution to that so-called problem. Perhaps the rewards could be reduced the longer the mothership is in the incursion (CONCORD gently nudging capsuleers to change their attention) but an all out stop seems too artificial.
Amarr Empire
#15 Posted: 2012.01.23 17:03
Some changes I'd like to see:
- Increase the number of sites needed to be run in order for the MOM to spawn.
- Have the spawning of the MOM trigger the end of new sites spawning. (people get the payout for the sites they're finishing but
no new sites). This would help eliminate the farming and the griefing that is happening atm.
- Depending on how many sites must be run for the mom to spawn (stated above), maybe increase the spawn rate of incursion
sites. This would also help with the congestion issues currently happening.
- Increase the payouts for scout incursions. To a bit higher than lvl 4 missions.
- Decrease the payouts for vanguards, not a lot though.
- Increase the payouts for assaults and headquarters, should make more isk than vanguards.
- Increase the payout multiplier for incursions in low sec.



So. in summary, with these changes there would be more incursions in more system that would run for shorter amounts of time than they normally do now (when being farmed), people would kill the mom as intended, and move out to another incursion. With more incursions at the same time there would be less congestion. With CCP controlling the spawn rate, any complaints about HS making too much isk, could be adjusted on the fly behind the scenes. There would be more incentive to run the higher level sites, as there should be.

Well.. that was my 2 cents. Thanks for listening.
The Mockers AO
#16 Posted: 2012.01.23 17:06
Incursions need some other objectives than just "kill more NPCs" in my opinion.

Some of the "optional" stuff such as disabling the repair structure should be more prevalent and mandatory like in the mining facility. It's too easy to just MAX DPS AND TANK.



Despite all the complaining about how hard the MOM fleets are when they insta-pop and alpha some logistics - please, that was one of the most amazing PVE Experiences I ever had. And I got my Logistics blown up.

We went in there with 14 Logistics, and we came out with 4. Out of 60 pilots.

~Someone in the fleet asked afterwards "How many Logis did we bring?"
~I responded "Just enough."


IMPORTANT SUGGESTION :

What bothered me was that I got no credit for that in the fleet after I was destroyed - no ISK or LP because I had been popped down to a POD, but you don't get any money if in your pod in a site. Is there a way we can give Fleet members in the Incursion sites the ability to get credit if they lose their ship while in there, or are sitting in their capsule in the site? That really really sucked because we did not get any credit, after fighting tooth and nail to take down that Mothership - and on top of it all, because we actually LOST more ships and went under the minimum ship" the whole fleet lost ISK as well because they were under the peak gradient for rewards. :(

I think that needs serious fixing - because it was uncool to go through all that effort and lose out.




The #1 Rule I wish the CCP Devs would understand is that :

Skillpoints, ISK and Player Numbers are not a deterrent to EVE Players. We can, will and have overcome EVERY DEVELOPERS challenge that focuses on Skillpoints, ISK and Player numbers as a "challenge to overcome" - and frankly, pretty damned easily, and only easier over time.

When developing, look at other things that are the barriers to success that force us to use Skillpoints, ISK and Player Numbers together to overcome the challenge, but not those AS the challenge in itself.


Where I am.
#17 Posted: 2012.01.23 17:08
There is nothing wrong with getting rich in EVE, yet Incursions allow so with little afford. Quite in contrast to most Incursion haters I actually run them. The best I ever got where 780M before LP in a single day (about 7h). All I had to do was to warp around in the same system and shoot the same NPCs over and over again. I know of two pilots that crossed 1B in a single day before LP. That might be a little much for highsec don't you think? One player told me he used to bot before Incursions. So Incursions is even better then botting.

There is only one way to top that and that is running complexes in 0.0. Complexes that are not spawning as fast as you can clear them out like Incursions. And you only get this if you run a 10/10 solo. I'm sorry but that is not exactly balanced.

Risk wont come from NPCs it has to be provided by players. So either heavyly limit the Incursions that happen in highsec and move them to lowsec (OMGWTFLOWSECBOOST?) or make Incursion sites in highsec PvP zones.

Believe it or not Incursions hinder PvP. If you run Incursions regularly you neither want to have wardecs nor killrights on you. Given that those players who stay for years tend to be those that PvP a lot it might be in CCPs very best interest to have a look at this problem.

Another problem with Incursions themself are unpopular sites. They are unpopular because it's a PITA to get a fleet composition to actually run them and when you got that you make a good bit less ISK out of those sites. There should be more sites on top of that with more restrictions to ship classes.

Changing the LP reward wont solve any problem. LP for normal missions have dropped quite a lot since CONCORD LP dropped below 800ISK/LP. If at all either remove the ability to trade CONCORD LP or move it to 0.0 factions only.

I don't think that lowering the payout would change much. Players will just run them for longer to get the same ISK. You might have to use your brain in a reasonable manner to deal with the problem and it might even take more then one iteration to untangle it.

EDIT: The forum tried to eat this post. For all what is holy increase that stupid timeout already!
If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
#18 Posted: 2012.01.23 17:11
People do incursions to make money to pvp, plex their accounts etc., if you eliminate the reward then no one will do incursions.

Currently there are only 2 incursions running both in low sec , therefore 100's probably 1000's of CCP customers are bored , bored CCP customers play wow :.)

I would definately be for more variety and difficulty in running the incursions sites.

The Idea that "too many" people are participating and making "too much" money, and presumably having too much fun as well, is ridiculous , are you sure we want less people making money and having a good time ? seems like a poor buisness plan to me.

An Incursion should last 3-7 days , the mom should appear and all other ites stop working , and the incursion should end. followed by a respawn no later than the next Down time.
the reason Vanguards pay better is they take fewer people . THe assualts take 20 people and you cant get 20 people all doing the same thing as easily as getting 10 people . I propose all site take 10 people. and vary the difficulty of the site. or have the sites difficulty vary with the number of people doing them.
#19 Posted: 2012.01.23 17:12  |  Edited by: mkint
This thread is heading nowhere good. If you want incursion feedback, ask people who run incursions, not people who are butthurt because "ihazdrake!" doesn't get any fleet invites. Especially since you at CCP already know what really needs to be changed:

Blitzing needs to be fixed (payouts are fine, 1-2 minute completion times are not. 5-6 minute completion times are completely reasonable.)

assault/hq need to be buffed isk/hour to be more attractive than vg's by at least 10-20%. I don't know if it's the sites faults, or the FC's, but doing them is painfully slow. 1 hour fleeting up, 30 minutes doing a site, 1 hour waiting for replacements for the people the who dropped because waiting hour and a half between wallet flashes sucks noodles. Ludus knows how to blitz assault sites profitably at least, but no one else seems to be able to. How about you ask him how he does it, and what would need to happen to be able to get more people along. You know, like I said, ask people who know, not butthurt trolls.

mom timer - the whole not-killing-the-mom thing is the players trying to fix something that was broken from deployment, and still not fixed going on 1-year later. It was publicly stated by the designers that incursions are meant to last about a week. It is trivially easy to spawn the mom in an hour. It's not working as intended. It's broke. Fix it. Whether that fix is making the mom harder to spawn, a hard timer, or the mom despawns and the influence bar starts reverting if the players don't kill the mom, the current situation is broken and the trolls are all butthurt that players are using workarounds to make it work as intended. The fight against the influence bar should be a real fight. Seriously, why was this not fixed a year ago?

If moms ARE going to be killed within the hour of an incursion spawning, incursions need to respawn faster. Travel time sucks, but it's better than sitting with our thumbs up our asses going "now what?"

It would be cool/interesting if corp membership were rewarded in incursions instead of punished. Never ever EVER join an incursion corp. Especially a successful one. It's the single stupidest thing you could do if you want to run incursions. That is a problem. Not a game-breaking one, but one for which it seems like there could be some fun creative solutions.

It's annoying that the ihazdrake children whine about not getting into a decent fleet, but that's their own damned faults. Adding another class of site that pays less than lvl 4's for the ihazdrake children might not go amiss. The scout sites pay less than lvl 2 missions and are useless, move them to the rookie starter systems, put up a splash window on warp in telling the rookies to bring friends.

Incursions are pretty hard to do casually. If I'm x'ing up as a logi, I'm x'ing up with the expectation that my fleet might not find a replacement for me in 3-4 hours. That might be my own fault as much as anyone's, but having sites that pay in the lvl 4 range with a fleet comp of 1-5 people would help bridge the gap between solo PVE and incursions.

That's what's really broken, but you already know this. You already know that incursions add no more isk to the economy than any other form of PVE, especially since the LP added is an isk sink. You shared the data at the summit that inflation is not a problem right now at all. The whining "they pay too much" butthurt trolls are wrong, and you know it, though that's 99% of what this thread is going to be. Pay is fine. The players organize themselves, share standings lists, and have worked out a lot of that "emergent gameplay" you people like to brag about so much. Fix the problems and the complexity of the emergent gameplay will increase. Listen to the butthurt trolls, and incursions will die, and you'll lose all those subscriptions who refuse to go back to lame missioning or ratting after having done incursions.

edit: Lowsec incursion payout is fine. They already get farmed by people who can, and will NEVER get farmed by people who can't. Simple as that.
Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
The Mockers AO
#20 Posted: 2012.01.23 17:14  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The difficulty from Scout to Vanguard is way too big - I know Incursions are well settled in now and so on - so maybe this is less relevant with the community - but the first time we went to Incursions we did some Scouts and were like "Ok, this is easy, let's try the next challenge up" and got totally BBQED WTFPWNED.

Sure, that's part of the fun - but it seems like it should be a LITTLE more smooth difficulty build up than that.


The current Vanguards have been mastered to a large degree very easily. I would like to see more "randomness" in those sites that actually branches each individual site into multiple variations that you have to prepare for and potentially delay you randomly.


Some will have a faster completion, some will have a slower completion, but having very random trees of escalation in the individual sites would help keep things more fun, interesting and vary the actual ISK/HR depending on a bit of luck and a bit of preparation.

Biggest issue for those changes I would say are properly communicating what you have to do now, if it's not specifically an NPC kill challenge built into the site.

~I support the idea of longer times until Mothership appearance
~I support the idea that penalties should take longer to nullify, dramatically longer time.
~Decrease the payout for HIGH SEC Vanguards, but keep them the same for low/null sec. High Sec VG makes 7.5M ISk down from 10M Isk, but Low/null still makes 15M ISK. Just change the penalty ration for high sec.




The phenomenon for Vanguards being way more popular than Assaults is 2 fold -

Getting 20 people to stay in a fleet together for 2 hours to run constant incursions without requiring a 30 minute break to refuel on people after each site is really a HASSLE, and is the main deterrent for a lack of the Assault Fleets.

What I actually recommend is increase the number of players you can have in an Assault so that you can still run them with 20-25 people, but you can stock up to 30 people in your fleet to get rewards, if you lose 3-4 people, you can keep going and look to replace them.

The other alternative is to increase the reward slightly for Assaults - I'm sure more people would stay in the fleet if they felt they got more rewards per "tick". Even if Vanguards are the same ISK/HR than Assaults, the psychological nature of having less rewards per hour is in play here. The ADD nature of gamers is coming through, they want to feel rewarded every 5-10 minutes, not every 20-30 minutes.

Ask anyone who runs Assaults and their first reaction is : "It'd be fine if our fleet would not be forced to stop running incursions to get more people!"

HQ's seem to suffer from that less, and I think it's because there's more critical mass of bodies that can keep that kind of fleet propelled forward after you finally form the fleets together.


Another thing that would help is the ability to "Merge Fleets" easily - this would allow Vanguards to grow into Assaults and then into HQ's. I know this is a technical challenge, but if that can be accomplished, it would smooth the way for combining fleets into larger bricks to take on the bigger challenges.


I like the idea of splitting the fleets into 2 compounds, the ship restrictions do make it a hassle though. Find other ways to implement this concept.
Where I am.
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