Crime & Punishment

 
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The Tornado Boomerang Maneuver: Chain-Killing Exhumers efficiently

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#1 - 2012-03-20 03:03:28 UTC
My impression is that the Tornado is actually underutilized by most of the ganking community.

"Tempest volley on a Battlecruiser hull!" ,was the cry, as gankers calculated the cost savings of the smaller hull and sized up their Orca Maintenance Bays. And yes, that 12-13K volley at 30-40km is impressive. But with slow 1400MM reload times, (around 13-14 seconds) most figure it is good for only one or two shots.....

But most have missed something important. That Battlecruiser hull is Minmatar - and Minmatar are known for something other than volley, speed and duct tape: AGILITY!

Most gankers kill their targets, then sit there and wait for inevitable death. This is a mistake.

With skills, an agility hardwire, a fleet boosts and cheap rigs, you can get the Tornado into warp in 3.9 seconds.
USE THAT ABILITY. CCP's policy of "You must lose your ship to Concord" doesn't mean you have to meekly wait for it. You spent 50M on that Tornado hull - get your moneys worth!

Once safely in warp (en route to another target or a SS) - your guns are reloaded for ANOTHER 13K long range volley....and another...and another, for as long as you can find targets and stay ahead of Concord.

Combine a 13K 'front-loaded' volley with a 3.9 second warp - you can be in and out in 7 seconds. Its a machine that can tear a bloody hole into icebotter ranks and depopulate belts in very short order. Not quite as ISK-efficiently as with Catalyst mobs, but FAR more time-efficiently -killing multiple Exhumers - per 15 minute GCC.

My Tornado Fit: "Wild Ass Mother"

8x T2 1400MM Heavy Artillery + RF PP ammo
3x T2 Tracking Comp II + Tracking Script
2x Sensor Booster II + Scan Res Script
4x Gyrostabilizer II

3x Low Friction Nozzle Joints I

Implants I use:
5% Fitting: Allows you to fit the 4th Gyrostab II.
5% Agility: Get into warp faster!
5% Large Proj Damage = more volley
5% Turret Damage = more volley

Why it works:

T2 Howitzers/Gyros: with the proper hardwires and skills mean you can deal a 13.5K Volley.
These guns are not cheap (4M each), however T2 gives you the ability to split your guns into two 4x groups - with each group instapopping a Mackinaw. Also, split them 4 ways and you can kill 4 Retrievers or nail some pods....but Exhumers are the prime target. Half of the guns will survive the explosion for reuse - more if you UNFIT them into an Orca before death.

3x TCs/2x SEBOs
I've come to the conclusion that this is the correct mix for the mid-slots.

On Tracking Computers - in this context are essentially damage mods - as they increase the chance of high quality hits that give you a 25-50% damage bonus. They are especially important to reduce the negative transversal effect your warp-landing often has on firing. A Target Painter MAY be slightly more useful than TC #3, however it can only be used on one target at a time, and must be fired BEFORE the guns - while TC's have a global effect and remain on while in warp.

3x Low Friction Nozzle Joints I

What? Rigging a suicide ganking ship? Trust me, these are the sauce. The faster you can warp out, the longer you delay Concord death - which multiplies the number of volleys you get and targets you kill.

They are cheap, costing only 500K each. For 1.5 Million ISK you can cut your warp-time by 1.5 seconds. Combine them with:

-Evasive Maneuvering/Space Ship Command at V,
-Level V Skirmish Gangboost Orca (only the skills help, not the ganglinks)
-5% Agility Hardwire

You are now fast enough to warp and fire 3 times in 0.7 security space, and more in lower security situations. When you witness your Tornado light up 2 Mackinaws, turn 180 degrees on a dime - and get into warp before Concord has even left the donut shop, you'll thank me.

A side-benefit: This also makes it incredibly difficult for 'white knights' to interfere, as the Tornado is there and gone in 7-8 seconds. A 40km practical engagement range + cloaked scouts mean they have no idea where you are going to appear and cannot stop you (though they'll try...)

My ideal ice belt hunting procedure:

-I take a page from Goonswarm and stage a small, cheap POS in the system. This gives you a safe place to board ships and frustrates the hell out of random 'white knights' who try to scan your outlaw capsule. It also allows you to use your Orca as a scout ship. Just remember that a non-corp member must re-enter the password if changing systems or docking up.

-Place cloaked scouts in the belt at least 150km away from each other within the same ice belt. (Generally, one at the top of the belt and one on the bottom) For warp-in points, I tend to use a cloaked Orca and Rapier pair. Both are equipped to passively scan targets. Rapier is for quickly salvaging and looting, also equipped to lock down and kill random can flippers.
Orca is for scooping ice and, most importantly - unfitting T2 Howitzers into it if the Tornado happens to be 'caught' next to it. Sometimes the Orca is staged at a safe-spot, if placing it in the belt is not necessary or desirable for some reason.

-I feel the fastest and easiest way to get into warp under pressure is use "Warp to Member" fleet window, rather than bookmarks or pulldown windows.

-Goonswarm 'Clearing' Concord technique is useful - but not strictly necessary. If a Concord swarm is located in the bottom of the ice belt, you simply launch your FIRST attack at least 150km away, say, at the top of the belt. Then 'warp-to' the bottom of the belt. Concord will chase you like a puppy-dog, but will never be in the right place at the right time, as you bounce back and forth - setting multiple Mackinaws or Hulks alight.

-The 15 GCC countdown isn't all that inconvenient, as it takes a few minutes to salvage and loot, move a new Tornado into position, and get your scouts into position before the next strike.

Continued...
#2 - 2012-03-20 03:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Here are some other tips and tricks I've discovered and used from time to time.

1. Set your warp-in and warp-out points to minimize landing and accelerating transversal!

Generally speaking, you will be perfectly ok if you fire from 30-35km away. Note: the Tornado has a large 'falloff' bonus as well, meaning you can hit targets hard well outside the 30K optimal. This helps if the target is moving at 'blazing' Exhumer speeds.

However, you will find your success of getting into warp ahead of Concord in 0.7 increases if you do it this way:

-Board Tornado.
-Warp to bottom of belt - allow your landing speed to bleed off while targeting.
-Kill initial targets. (probably two badly tanked Macks)
-Initiate warp to top of belt.
-Notice that your guns have magically reloaded, and set them to standby.
-Land, then initiate warp to the bottom of belt FIRST.
-THEN target....and shoot and kill while aligning.

However to do this PROPERLY, you need to be pointed directly AT or AWAY from the target - or your rapid acceleration could botch your shot. In short, while placing your scouts, consider the 'geometry' of your placement, not just the firing range.

2. Gank, then unload your expensive mods into an Orca.
-Land next to the Orca (and shoot, or not), then immediately open the corporate hangar (make sure Orca is configured for it!)
-Drag mods from the UI into the Corp hangar window. There will be popups, about 'breaking groups' and a 'one-way' move popup which has a clearable checkbox...but if you are prepared for them - you can drag most of your guns to safety even while Concord is destroying your ship. If you are having trouble with lag, turn off the Turret graphics - that should help.

So at minimum you can save a number of your 4M T2 guns.
But there is more....
What if you need more damage? Some Hulk or Mackinaw is tanked JUST a bit harder than you feel comfortable shooting at?
Fit Faction Gyrostabilizers! Yes!
It adds about 1000 damage to your volley and painlessly extends your damage profile.

Because Faction Gyrostabilizers cost around 70M each, I would not use this trick until you are comfortable with the Orca 'unfitting technique', and are relatively sure you will be able to execute properly, but it works. In fact, saving them is even easier than guns, because they are not generally 'grouped' - and thus no-popup to slow you down.

3. Remember that your EFT volley is an AVERAGE.
You will often be rewarded with up to a 50% bonus to your potential damage. You might not think you can kill the target 'on paper', but in reality you will be rewarded with a nice explosion. Routine hit quality bonuses are QUITE large when they are applied to Minmatar Artillery, meaning they can be quite swingy. Do your best to make sure the swing is your way!
-Minimize 'landing' transversal.
-Maximize your tracking.
-Hit stationary targets if possible and set up the angle and timing properly vs orbiting targets.

4. Economics of killing Exhumers: Profitable!
If ISK is a concern for you, the economics of ganking in a T2 Tornado is in your favor. It works something like this for me:

-45M Tornado hull (I build my own, 50 at a time.)
-40M in ganking mods.
...so we start out 85 Million in the hole.

Then, the positive side:
Average Tornado drops 20M in mods/salvage, more if dumped into Orca)
Average Mackinaw drops 7M in mods (1x Ice Harvester + other stuff)
Average Mackinaw gives up 18M or so in T2 salvage. (Usually 1x Intact Armor Plate per, but up to 3 for each...)

So, do the math: Kill 2 Mackinaws (trivially easy) and you are nearly breaking even. Kill 3 per Tornado (not hard) and you are coming out nicely ahead. Killing 6 Mackinaws is possible in 0.6, and theoretically more in 0.5. I've not had the opportunity to try.


Get creative and use your ability to victimize miners at will - and extort them for more. Myself, I've made nearly 7 Billion ISK by simply sending threatening Evemails to every miner I've popped in the last few months. Many are willing to pay 200M per mining account, simply in exchange for a promise of not to do it again. Especially after you demonstrate how easy it is to find and kill them repeatedly using tracking agents and the addressbook. Seven Billion ISK, all cream - just for ganking miners - in addition to the profits from all the wreckage.

At a minimum, smile as you fill the killboard with dead Macks and Hulks. Reap tears, dish out hundreds of millions in damage in pain every 15 minutes. Force the dirty miners to spend hours toiling to replace the fleet, that only took you seconds to destroy.

I get a warm fuzzy when I look at the list of 529 dead Exhumers, 123 Capsules, 31 Mining Barges, and 1 Industrial Command Ship! I've solo ganked over the last few months. Make good use of this trick and you will too.

And don't forget - when you invariably discover that 80-90% of them are botting - do your community some good! Report and/or petition them every time you see them, instead of just profiting obscenely from their failfit broken wreckage.


The Talos


Not as generally useful as the Tornado. ...
-Very short arms, 6K Optimal range.
-Sluggish + DPS style damage means it will not be able to warp-out.
-No selectable damage types.
-Significantly more expensive than Tornado (as Tornado does not require Nocx. for construction)

That said, it cranks out 6500 damage every 4 seconds. This means in narrow situations where you want to put a maximum amount of damage on a single target, (ie, make an example of a well tanked previous victim, or kill an Orca with 2 friends) it can do far more damage. Tornado, by warping and hitting multiple targets can do far more damage OVERALL - but the Talos can put down 4 volleys (26K damage) on a single target in 0.7 space (14 second Concord response time), more in 0.5 space.
Nyx Legion
#3 - 2012-03-20 03:08:52 UTC
I sense a nerf. I'm betting four days. I'll put 100m on it. Any takers?

Wilk, excellent work being the cleverest dude. Too bad clever dudes aren't rewarded for their cleverness in this game.
#4 - 2012-03-20 03:51:55 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I sense a nerf. I'm betting four days.
More likely CONCORD gets another buff.
Herr Wilkus wrote:
You are now fast enough to warp and fire 3 times in 0.7 security space
What is the limiting factor here that determines when you will be caught?

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.

#5 - 2012-03-20 05:04:44 UTC
Well, ganking miners is what I do. My profession. Would hardly be a profession if I had to lose money doing it.

Yes, when it comes to ganking - or any kind of 'high-sec non-consensual' aggression....
I think that most of TEARS agrees with me when I say that CCP collectively has been a tremendous group of carebear nutsak hugging toggafs.

However, most of this stuff I figured out in December within a few weeks of the Tornado's release. And I've explained it to anyone who wanted to know.

Its not exactly a 'secret' - I'm sure a few others have figured it out. Goonswarm has posted video of warping around with groups of destroyers doing exactly the same thing. Further, anybody watching you do this (ie bounce around an ice belt like a wrecking ball...killing miners all the way) will probably figure out what is going on, eventually.

Still, based on previous discussions on the forums, there seemed to be a certain confusion about how to use the Tornado optimally, how to cycle the guns - rather than just take one shot, kill one target, and die. This misconception seems to be pushing people into ganking with Catalysts, rather than Tornados.

And I want to see this tactic more widely applied - I want to see miners BURN, not just in Gallente space, but everywhere. I can only do so much solo.

Of course, Cats have their role as well, as does the Talos.

Myself, I use a mixture.
- Solo T2 700 DPS Cats for lone targets that don't warrant a Tornado strike
- T2 Tornados for full belts of widely spaced botters and miners.
- T1 Typhoons for clumps of badly tanked Macks/Hulks.
- T2 Talos for hard targets.
- T1 Thrashers for pods (though recent nerfs have made a 'quick follow up strike' on an AFK miner impossible - can't board a Thrasher while GCC....)

As far as a CCP nerf goes...I don't know.

This will kind of be a test case for me as I don't consider it to be an exploit, or even remotely requiring a nerf/Concord buff.
Doesn't take advantage of a flaw in the game mechanics, or a 'hole' in the programming.
It merely takes advantage of a unique convergence of Tornado abilities. Agility + instantaneous volley + Orca portable.
That convergence just happens to turn ganking Exhumers from an unprofitable chore into a profitable, entertaining one.

Where is it written that killing miners needs to be done at a loss?

But if you are right and we see yet ANOTHER stealth nerf / mechanic change....well, I suppose that will settle the argument in my mind. It will be a safe bet that sweeping changes to ganking mechanics are coming in the near future that will make most of this superfluous.
#6 - 2012-03-20 05:38:07 UTC
Grumpymunky wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I sense a nerf. I'm betting four days.
More likely CONCORD gets another buff.
Herr Wilkus wrote:
You are now fast enough to warp and fire 3 times in 0.7 security space
What is the limiting factor here that determines when you will be caught?


A) Seems that Concord shows up more quickly with each successive landing.
B) That 'timer' starts after you enter grid, not when you 'leave warp' and can start to target.
C) I notice that sometimes in 0.7, NPC police (Concord? Am usually too busy to notice) appears on grid 'early' and seem to lock you the instant once you shoot another target in front of them. I'm not sure - doesn't always happen. There is speculation that CCP stealth buffed Concord once already with respect to this just a few months ago, due to Smodab Ongalots technique of ganking with 2-3 Cats every few minutes while GCC'd.

On the other hand, it DOES work in 0.7 You just have to practice and be efficient with your clicks and timing. Recently attacked two Mackies, popped one, critically damaged the other, warped to the top of the belt, killed a lone Hulk, then had time to warp back down and finish off the damage Mack. Had their been other targets I could have gotten one more.

Cross-Atlantic or crappy internet lag makes it far more difficult, as Concord is not affected by it like players are. A couple seconds of lag does not mean much in most contexts, but here it often can make the difference between warping successfully and being caught and destroyed prematurely.

This is a very strong argument for CCP getting rid of multiple GCC pop-up windows issue, as the many lag-seconds lost in needless 'back and forth' communication and verification lead to Concord death and failure. But as it seems they would rather make the pop-ups MORE aggravating by switching the default setting to "No." I doubt anything like this will happen.

On the other hand, 0.6 and 0.5 systems are more forgiving and ample targets can generally be found.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-03-20 05:59:40 UTC
This is pretty clever and takes quite a bit of work to do. Don't try this while solo, kids!

I remember trying this with a tempest before the nano nerf when BS could warp like inties. My guns kept missing because I was always aligning the wrong way and I didn't have an alt so I was just warping to random belts and gates (ogod gate guns) and I don't think I killed anything but it was hilarious.
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-03-20 06:34:03 UTC
I take my hat off for you, impressive read!

 I did not have sexual relations to THAT woman....

#9 - 2012-03-20 06:40:35 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I sense a nerf. I'm betting four days. I'll put 100m on it. Any takers?

Wilk, excellent work being the cleverest dude. Too bad clever dudes aren't rewarded for their cleverness in this game.



You beat me to it.

I was thinking "in before the nerf".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

#10 - 2012-03-20 07:21:04 UTC
A nerf is not in the slightest bit necessary.

The only thing that needs to be nerfed are greedy miners who are so accustomed to being safe....

- that they can't be bothered to fit a tank and routinely leave their mid-slots empty.
- pay attention while mining....
- or even play the game at all. After ganking hundreds of them, I'd say 80-90% of them are obvious macros.

A Tornado makes killing Exhumers efficient, but the fault lies with the miner for making themselves such easy targets.

The real solution? CCP should sit back and allow gankers to ravage the belts. Do not throw up needless barriers, or kneecap the Tornado/buff Concord.

Let nature run its course. Smart miners adapt and learn to EHP-fit T2 Exhumers properly, mine in Covetors, quit mining, or quit the game. Believe me, I've seen all of these scenarios occur.

Eventually you are left with a population of miners who can tank, spot the warning signs of an impending attack, earn higher prices for their minerals - as bots and whining idiots are driven out.

But this argument, while true, fall on the deaf ears of miners who refuse to learn an expensive lesson, stamp their feet and scream 'Its no fair!'.

Paraphrasing the late William F. Buckley, "I would like to electrocute everyone who uses the word "fair" in the connection with suicide ganking."
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2012-03-20 07:29:39 UTC
100% certain that this will be nerfed. CCP doesn't like when people escape Concord after a gank. Yes, you die eventually but if you can chain multiple warps and kills before that, it isn't "kosher" by the space bushido code. You suicide gank, you are supposed to go boom. At best you might get off two or three volleys depending on system sec status.

Nice job creatively abusing the game mechanics, but it does qualify as abuse.
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-03-20 08:25:58 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


The only thing that needs to be nerfed are greedy miners who are so accustomed to being safe....

- that they can't be bothered to fit a tank and routinely leave their mid-slots empty.
- pay attention while mining....
- or even play the game at all. After ganking hundreds of them, I'd say 80-90% of them are obvious macros.


hehe sorry but this is a pretty stupid thinking.
It's like saying "omg miners are mining! HOW DARE THEM?!"

You seems to be good at ganking but completely ignorent at mining.

A simple miner will fit a very small tank with rigs and mids max, and even than will mosly not survive a gank. Reason is that using the mining upgrades will eat at your power, which will limit your tank anyway.

Its all about cost efficiency. Chancing a gank over making extra 5mil isk an hour, a miner will risk it, because its worth it in the long run. Unless you are in a very busy ganking area, chances to die are low, and you can easily return that money back over a week or so.

Also I have seen several second account alts mine half afk while their main is bust doing missions or other things. So they don't pay attention at all. Its a gank opportunity, but for them its worth the extra no brainer income over the risk.

It has nothing to do with deaf ears.
#13 - 2012-03-20 08:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
So - now simply 'warping off' after attacking a ship in highsec is 'an exploit' in carebear world? Why, because you don't like it?

There is no 'unspoken' rule that you can only kill 1 ship per GCC. Typhoon SB attacks would have disappeared long ago.

As far as I'm concerned, the insurance nerf 'balanced' this tactic already. After all, you lose a 50M hull! It needs to do something special that a 1M ISK Catalyst can't. This tactic is it.

Anyway, I'd like to see if others can come up with refinements and further improve the success rate and kill ratio.

For Skunkworks 'Crime Spree' event:

I will be offering a 500M prize for the pilot who can put together the longest string of Exhumer kills with a single Tornado.


I want to see what others are capable of doing. I theorize the maximum is 8 poorly tanked Mackinaws in 0.5 space, but I could be wrong, could be more, could be less. I've not yet taken a field trip to Nakugard to give this a test. Most of the 0.5 Ice belts in Gallente space tend to be lightly populated....
#14 - 2012-03-20 09:00:57 UTC
Mokanor Lenak wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:


The only thing that needs to be nerfed are greedy miners who are so accustomed to being safe....

- that they can't be bothered to fit a tank and routinely leave their mid-slots empty.
- pay attention while mining....
- or even play the game at all. After ganking hundreds of them, I'd say 80-90% of them are obvious macros.


hehe sorry but this is a pretty stupid thinking.
It's like saying "omg miners are mining! HOW DARE THEM?!"

You seems to be good at ganking but completely ignorent at mining.

A simple miner will fit a very small tank with rigs and mids max, and even than will mosly not survive a gank. Reason is that using the mining upgrades will eat at your power, which will limit your tank anyway.

Its all about cost efficiency. Chancing a gank over making extra 5mil isk an hour, a miner will risk it, because its worth it in the long run. Unless you are in a very busy ganking area, chances to die are low, and you can easily return that money back over a week or so.

Also I have seen several second account alts mine half afk while their main is bust doing missions or other things. So they don't pay attention at all. Its a gank opportunity, but for them its worth the extra no brainer income over the risk.

It has nothing to do with deaf ears.


I have to agree with Wilkus, and thats as someone with a full indy alt. What you describe is greed, and miners doing it individually has lead to collective risk. ie if every hulk was buffer fitted to enforce 3 salvoes, and people lacking tank stayed in covetors, then the factory farming of miners would not occur. Likewise at least triggering warp when you see tornados on scan or arriving in belt.

it is a shame that the mining "mini-game" such that it is, is so poorly figured out that there is no profit vs survivability maths done by the average pilot. It really should be relevent in exhumer fits.

Actual miners should also ask themselves why Wilkus's orca alt has not been ganked. If multiplayer was ever considered as an option when playing eve, then surely it should be facing an overview full of talos at some point in the near future.

Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-03-20 09:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mokanor Lenak
Tauranon wrote:



I have to agree with Wilkus, and thats as someone with a full indy alt. What you describe is greed, and miners doing it individually has lead to collective risk. ie if every hulk was buffer fitted to enforce 3 salvoes, and people lacking tank stayed in covetors, then the factory farming of miners would not occur. Likewise at least triggering warp when you see tornados on scan or arriving in belt.

it is a shame that the mining "mini-game" such that it is, is so poorly figured out that there is no profit vs survivability maths done by the average pilot. It really should be relevent in exhumer fits.

Actual miners should also ask themselves why Wilkus's orca alt has not been ganked. If multiplayer was ever considered as an option when playing eve, then surely it should be facing an overview full of talos at some point in the near future.



Greed? what are you on about??
That lead to ganking?
Staying in covetors will not lead to ganking?

You must be high or something.

Miners are mining for isk. I'm sure its a shock to everyone, but that is the cold harsh truth.
Making as much money as you can in the time you mine (excluding botters) is just as important, if not more, than surviving ganking.
Some prefer to sacrifice survivability for more income, some prefer to survive in a harsh area over losing their ship.

How many times have you been ganked, or attempted?
Once a month? Twice?
Its more like a once every six months in a more remote quiet place, if ever. In that time you can make billions by fitting to mining over tanking.

Mining without a tank and afk in a traveled area is one thing, and I'm not saying go for it, but I'm just saying that calculating income vs risk, 90% of the time, the risk is worth it.
A full ops of miners all fitted to max mining with no tank, will easily make all that isk blown back within a few days. So I don't see the point of this.
Ice mining afk with no tank is stupid, but if you put you head in the numbers instead of your as... I mean guns, you will see the simple reasons of that risk.

And just Because this forum is more about tears and less about math:
A fully mining hulk will do about 4mil isk an hour over a tanked one (or more, depends on skills and what he mines, perfect will make it 5.5mil)
If mining 1 hour a day, that means 120mil isk a month extra.
Most miners will do of course more. More into 50 to 60 a month give or take.
That means that even if you gank them once a month, they can buy a new hulk, fit it, and still come ahead.

Get it?

Botting ice, you are welcome to report or blow up, but what you blow up they are making over a day or two per ship, so you really not screwing their income as much as you think.
#16 - 2012-03-20 10:30:11 UTC
Mokanor Lenak wrote:


And just Because this forum is more about tears and less about math:
A fully mining hulk will do about 4mil isk an hour over a tanked one (or more, depends on skills and what he mines, perfect will make it 5.5mil)
If mining 1 hour a day, that means 120mil isk a month extra.
Most miners will do of course more. More into 50 to 60 a month give or take.
That means that even if you gank them once a month, they can buy a new hulk, fit it, and still come ahead.

Get it?

Botting ice, you are welcome to report or blow up, but what you blow up they are making over a day or two per ship, so you really not screwing their income as much as you think.


I have absolutely no problem with anything you said. The entire ganking community is 100% in favor of miners taking your excellent advice and fitting for max yield and cargo capacity!

.... I just don't want to read about how 'unfair' it is afterwards, that a 1 Million ISK Catalyst was able to destroy their 250M ISK Hulk - when it was their own fitting choices that led to that happy result.

As far as bots go, sadly, if CCP refuses to enforce their own botting rules, the machines will win every time.

Even if ganking them is profitable, individual mere mortals cannot gank 23 hours a day....unless the gankers outnumber the botters. By spreading useful information on how to gank more efficiently, and most importantly - profitably....my hope is that ice botters begin losing their Mackinaws on a daily basis, and the large alliances/RMTers that run them are forced to take them offline.
My fear? Is that CCP stupidly steps in and protects them with yet another ganking nerf.
#17 - 2012-03-20 10:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Spy 21
to the OP
Grats on ingenuity and perseverance in turning ganking into an art form.
Your post has made me respect an alliance I have literally LOATHED for years.

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...

Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-03-20 11:25:13 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


I have absolutely no problem with anything you said. The entire ganking community is 100% in favor of miners taking your excellent advice and fitting for max yield and cargo capacity!

.... I just don't want to read about how 'unfair' it is afterwards, that a 1 Million ISK Catalyst was able to destroy their 250M ISK Hulk - when it was their own fitting choices that led to that happy result.


I have no problem with you ganking or what miners fit. I'm just giving the reason.

This whole hate against miners and "greedy miners" calling is the same as calling all pvpers and gankers douchebag low lifers Lol

I will just point the obvious that they are generating the needed minerals that in the end you need to fly your shiny tornados. Without them, your income will be greatly diminished and flying a pvp ship will cost an arm and a leg.
So some respect both ways is needed, now matter how low it is.
Tactical Supremacy
#19 - 2012-03-20 12:35:18 UTC
As a hardcore rock shooter/ice cube provider, I would stand and applaud if one of my Hulks fell to this tactic...
I would of course require some sort of smack talk in local...

The sandbox at its finest... Tactic then counter tactic... If only more forum whiners would activate those invul fields before the tornadoes showed up...

P.S. I hope your graphics card overheats under the stress of my pretty explosions... I'll keep feeding you Hulks till it melts down...

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

#20 - 2012-03-20 12:44:54 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I sense a nerf. I'm betting four days. I'll put 100m on it. Any takers?

Wilk, excellent work being the cleverest dude. Too bad clever dudes aren't rewarded for their cleverness in this game.


i will take your 100m bet.
see you in 4 days.
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