EVE Forums

 
Capture Portrait
  • Date of Birth: 2012-09-14 02:35
  • First Forum Visit: 2012-12-31 06:54
  • Number of Posts: 69
  • Bounty: 0 ISK
  • Likes Received: 0

Coelomate Tian

Security Status 4.8
  • KarmaFleet Member since
  • Goonswarm Federation Member since

Last 20 Posts

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    CCP: We've noticed a 5-minute respawn timer after fully clearing a nullsec asteroid anomally since the patch went live, where it used to be nearly instantaneous (something like 10 seconds?). Can you confirm if this was intentional, and if so, whether that respawn behavior is being explored/tinkered with for balance purposes? I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about that in this post or the patch notes.

    General feedback:

    I've done a good amount of rorqual mining since the patch. Everything is working as predicted, the income is still great, and I will continue to use my rorquals + barges. In addition, mineral prices have recovered nicely since the nerf was announced, to the point of nearly offsetting the nerf entirely from a pure isk-per-hour perspective.

    The larger rocks are sometimes a headache to deal with, and it's a shame it now takes ~30%+ more time to acquire enough rocks to build a supercarrier, but otherwise all seems well.

    A quick summary of ways to mitigate the changes:


    • Change default "warp to within" to 3,000m or so to avoid bouncing when warping to larger rock models.
    • Use barges/exhumers as much as possible on the larger rocks instead of rorquals.
    • Fit 1 or 2 drone navigation computers.
    • Be especially vigilant mining larger rocks if hostiles are nearby, since drone return time could be significant if the asteroid radius is over 5,000m or so.
    • Try to finish the last asteroid with barges instead of rorqs if you're nervous about the P.A.N.I.C. changes.



  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Happy patch day everyone!

    Can't wait for all the crying about Big Spod, especially all of the crying about Big Spod that fails to mention all of the non-gigantic rocks in the anom.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    They won't be rip content. People will still use lots of rorqs, and lots of rorqs will die.

    Never underestimate greed (rorq income will still be best in the game for the effort required) coupled with hubris (P.A.N.I.C. button still exists).

    $10 says 6 months from now we're seeing similar rorqual usage/death rates, absent further major balance changes.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Cade Windstalker wrote:


    *facepalm*

    I'm honestly not surprised there's a bug in Pyfa (there's another bug in how it calculates boost bonuses, it doesn't factor in the T2 bonus from the Bursts themselves) but I'm more surprised that speed bonus is stacking penalized in-game. That seems... screwy.

    Fozzie, is the bonus off the Indy core to drone speed supposed to be stacking penalized with other modules?


    Most (all?) bastion module bonuses are stacking penalized against matching module bonuses, so there's at least some precedent.

    I've never actually checked to see if it's true for the siege module bonuses on dreadnoughts or the triage module bonuses on FAXes.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Found a PYFA bug!

    Watching the drones on my overview I hit 562m/s with my rorq pilot on sisi (3x nav computer IIs, Drone Nav V, and T2 industrial core - only mining drone spec IV though).

    That's a good bit lower than what PYFA indicates it should be, so I mucked around a little. Turns out it's a bug in PYFA: The industrial core's speed bonus (30%) is stacking penalized against drone navigation computers in-game, but PYFA (for whatever reason) appears to apply the industrial core bonus in a separate stack.

    The effect of that is to greatly reduce the benefit of stacking more than 2-3 drone navigation computers. Here are the real figures:

    All Vs, T2 Core, no nav computer: 358 m/s drone flight and orbit velocity (baseline)
    All Vs, T2 Core, 1x T2 nav comp: 451 m/s drone flight and orbit velocity (+26% speed)
    All Vs, T2 Core, 2x T2 nav comp: 528 m/s drone flight and orbit velocity (+17% speed)
    All Vs, T2 Core, 3x T2 nav comp: 573 m/s drone flight and orbit velocity (+8.5% speed) [nb: this figure matches my in-game tests]
    All Vs, T2 Core, 4x T2 nav comp: 591 m/s drone flight and orbit velocity (+3.1% speed)
    All Vs, T2 Core, 5x T2 nav comp: 596 m/s drone flight and orbit velocity (+0.8% speed)

    My python skills are a bid rudimentary, but maybe I'll muck around and see if I can submit a fix for the next PYFA release Big smile

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    So, just estimating here based on the volume of ore in one of these anoms and the relatively low quantity of very large rocks I'm guessing that the ideal mining setup for the larger ore anoms will end up being something like 1-2 Hulks per Rorqual to mine out the Mercoxit and the larger rocks while the Rorqual chews through the smaller ones.


    It'll certainly help the rorquals' income rate if they never need to touch big spod, although technically a rorqual with solid positioning still has the best yield in the game.

    A max-boost, max-yield hulk was what, somewhere around 250,000 m3/h? When I parked my rorqual with 3x drone nav comp IIs on The One True Spod (radius: 7,900m) for 15 minutes, I mined a bit over 140,000m3 of spodumain, or roughly 560,000 m3/h (compared to an expected ~800,000 m3/h or so I would have had with my skills/fit and ignoiring drone flight time around a large rock).

    So the theory is pretty straightforward:


    • Every pilot that can afford to be in a rorqual and should, assuming safe/well-defended space. It will always increase yield over time.
    • Selfless barge pilots should mine the asteroids with the largest radius in descending order (plus the mercoxit).
    • Selfish barge pilots will (still) choose A/G/B first and ignore rock size. They might switch to Spodumain instead of Crokite after A/G/B is gone, at least, which will help the rorquals (crokite rocks are still relatively small).
    • Anybody with 1+ rorquals will receive extra benefit from adding barge alts or recruiting barge pilots to hit the large rocks, but it will never be beneficial for a rorqual pilot to downship to a barge unless there is an additional skill/equipment/safety factor.


    In practice, because barges and barge alts are vastly cheaper than rorquals and rorqual pilots, I do expect we'll see more in each belt to help keep rorqual efficiency up. I haven't decided if I'll add more barges/exhumers to my setup or not (I already have a few).

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Tested this a lot last night and spreadsheeted it all. Some tests were pure yield tests comparing to theoretical amounts, others involved taking notes on asteroid radius, drone flight time, and max/average drone distance from my rorqual.

    The takeaways:


    • Based on all of my tests and weighing for ore size in m3, I predict a well positioned rorqual with 3x drone nav comps and good skills chewing through every rock will end up with 82% as much yield over the course of the entire anom. Coupled with the reduction to 75% from the excavator nerf, that makes the overall rorqual nerf a 39.5% reduction from current values (75% (excavator nerf) * 82% (impact of rock nerf) = 61.5% new yield compared to old yield).
    • Faster drones are almost always better, because drones take unpredictable paths. In theory, you would want to match drone speed to asteroid orbital radius to have them end back near your rorqual after 60 seconds, but in practice they just wobble around enough to make that unpredictable. There's an exception for truly large rocks and certain drone velocities that leave them likely to each just make it to the other end of the asteroid in 60 seconds, meaning consistently near worst case scenario yield reduction.
    • The asteroid size nerf can be mitigated by avoiding the largest rocks, which will be more like 60-70% yield due to their size. Skip them entirely, get barges on them, let somebody else get them, whatever - those are the biggest culprit in reducing overall yield. If you never have to mine a rock with a radius over 3,000m, you aren't going to feel much nerf from asteroid size increase.


    TL;DR With correct play and good skills, increasing rock sizes is another ~18% rorqual nerf if you exclusively mine the anom with rorquals. If you mix in some barges or can skip the biggest rocks, it'll be more like a 5-10% additional yield nerf.

    In other news, I'm quite pleased that my guesses earlier in this thread closely matched my testing Big smile

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Winter Archipelago wrote:
    "Before" Image: Bright Spod.

    "After" Image: Regular Spod.

    Are the Bright Spod asteroids not significantly smaller than regular Spod asteroids already? This isn't an apples-to-apples comparison.


    I don't think this impacts testing, so long as you look at ore amount instead of estimated isk.

    Whether the ores are regular/+ 5%/+10% is determined by the security status of the system. At certain security breakpoints, all of the ore switches to one variety, but I think it LOOKS the same. AFAIK from my casual observation, the size of the rocks is otherwise identical. The ore itself has identical volume too. I could be wrong, as I haven't extensively tested it, but I have no reason to be concerned from jump.

    It's hard to find anoms on the test server, so it's not surprising that people testing on sisi can't always match the "flavor" of ore they use on tranquility.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    A reminder for anyone panicked without having tested themselves:

    In a colossal nullsec anom, only some rocks are gigantic. Most rocks are still small. This is not a blanket 75% rorqual nerf.

    On the largest spod, without drone speed rigs and proper placement, I do believe you'll see yields fall by 75% vs. current values.

    But most rocks will be small enough for little yield reduction beyond the advertised 25% excavator nerf. And if you pack on drone speed rigs and park your rorqual intelligently, it won't be as bad.

    Spoiler Alert: Optimize your mining fleets by bringing barges to hit the big rocks from the beginning of the anom, use your rorquals on small rocks first.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    If only 1.6 tirllion isk worth of ore was mined in Delve, I mined close to 4% of all ore mined in Delve in February.

    I doubt that very, very much.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Coelomate Tian wrote:
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Note what I was talking about with the over-supply in this graph from the February MER. After the Rorqual changes the value mined shoots up to almost double before the Rorqual, and value destroyed only scoots up slightly in response.


    The mining line in that graph doesn't include rorqual mining, because drone mining amounts aren't reported in the tools used for the MER. The increase is only from more people using mining lasers.

    Think about that: the graph you linked includes 0 ore mined by rorquals. Zero. None.

    CCP does have that data though, imagine what it must look like...


    I *believe* this is not correct, considering this is what the graph looked like when January's report was released and now there's suddenly a distinct spike right after that convenient note about drone mining metrics being bugged. CCP Fozzie or someone else will have to confirm if my suspicion about the report being fixed is correct.


    All you have to do is look at the Delve numbers. I guarantee you GSF isn't producing 20 trillion+++ but only mining 1-2 trillion. Drone mining is bugged, it's not included in the graph, it says so in the graph itself.

    You still see a spike, IMO, because more people are doing mining of all kinds since all of the mechanics got changed and it's fresh. Also because people like me bring a few barges with their rorqual(s), since it's very little extra effort/SP required for more isk/hour.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Fonac wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Coelomate Tian wrote:
    Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

    If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


    The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

    On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.



    hmm.
    Are you sure you're happy with the results you're getting?

    Getting ~50 mil an hour, munching on a spodu rock seems incredibly low.


    Most rocks in the anom are close to the same size as before, and on those rocks, the only income reduction will likely be the expected 25% yield nerf. Only a few of the rocks are so big that yield will take a hit like that.

    Also, mineral prices could easily rise after these prices, as demand remains high (caps + supers online) and supply plummets as people mine less and produce less ore when they do mine.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Note what I was talking about with the over-supply in this graph from the February MER. After the Rorqual changes the value mined shoots up to almost double before the Rorqual, and value destroyed only scoots up slightly in response.


    The mining line in that graph doesn't include rorqual mining, because drone mining amounts aren't reported in the tools used for the MER. The increase is only from more people using mining lasers.

    Think about that: the graph you linked includes 0 ore mined by rorquals. Zero. None.

    CCP does have that data though, imagine what it must look like...

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Coelomate Tian wrote:
    Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

    If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


    The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

    On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.


    Thanks for the confirmation!

    (for what its worth, the new anoms ARE way prettier Smile)

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

    If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Cptcarter wrote:
    Wrong and your high...Rorq does not mine 1 super in 40hrs..damn so so wrong. Please provide me with proof of you mining a super in 40hrs with one Rorq. Max, max a rorq could mine 250m isk /hr of ore and that is high, that means it would take you 70hr to 80 hrs to build a super.


    SPOILER ALERT: As I made extremely clear in the prior post, the time estimation was for using the ore to build the super, not selling the ore for isk with which to purchase a super.

    A supercarrier only takes something like 11-12 billion isk worth of ore to build these days (prices are volatile bla bla bla, but it's around there)

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Anyone got the rough ISK/Hour numbers with this change compared to Super Ratting and how long it would take you to earn a Super through mining vs ratting?


    Right now, a perfect rorqual mines enough ore to build a supercarrier in roughly ~45 hours (that's quite rough math, but it's a close approximation, and I'll show my work if anyone gets significantly different numbers). No need to even think about isk per hour, because it's ore, and ore builds supers (technically you eat 1-2 billion in build fees and need the BPCs, though).

    Post-nerf and pre-asteroid resizing, it would be more like ~60 hours of mining to have enough ore for a super. If asteroids are resized this way, but it'll be 20%+ slower on the big spod rocks, and maybe no slower on rocks that didn't get a huge size increase (at a guess, I'd say 20% of the rocks in the asteroid field will be larger enough to significantly reduce yield?). For simplicity's sake, let's say it slows mining down by an average of 10%, which would put you around ~65 hours to build a super (again, just to get the ore for it, not including time/BPCs/refining fees/build fees).

    (Worth mentioning that this is accounting for super mineral requirements being reduced with the introduction of ECs and EC rigs)

    I'm less certain of a fair value for expecting income from supercarrier ratting, but I'd guess something like 350 million per hour would be a fair guess, and perhaps even on the low end. If somebody is more confident of numbers here, I'm all ears.

    Super prices have been volatile, but 20 billion for a hull isn't a crazy number to throw out. Build price is much lower, public keepstar supers are often more expensive, but that's in the ballpark. That would be 57 hours of super ratting to have the isk to buy a carrier (and cover the producer's BPC/build costs + profit).

    If you're just looking at how much you can sell the ore for, super ratting will probably earn 2-3x as much isk as rorqual mining produces value in ore. But it's trivial to multibox 2-3 rorquals, so... it'll be kinda balanced?

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    This is what it will be like to mine the largest Spodumain rock in a colossal anom after March 14th:

    http://i.imgur.com/C884F6T.png

    Huge nerf for mining the big spod rocks - although many/most rocks are quite a bit smaller.

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Here's a rough chart of how bad the nerf could be, depending on the average distance from your rorqual your drone is (which will depend on exactly how big the rocks are, and how close your rorqual is to the edge of the rock):

    http://i.imgur.com/ymLlHZO.png

  • [March] Rorqual and Mining changes in EVE Technology and Research Center

    Those larger rock sizes would be an absolutely massive additional nerf to rorqual yield AND an increase in mining risk. If the drones wind up several KM away from the rorqual mid-cycle, that will dramatically increase time spent "returning" between cycles due to their slow speed (even with a T2 core and nav comps), and it will also increase the opportunity for hunters to shoot/boosh the drones if they can get the drop on a mining operation.

    If rocks this size goes live, it will be way, way, way worse than the nerfs originally posted in this thread.