# 30,000 players **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 3, 2024, 8:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584 "2024-03-03T08:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spacetramp\_Drago](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/spacetramp_drago/32/480922_2.png) [@Spacetramp\_Drago](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Spacetramp_Drago)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/41 "2024-03-04T18:21:22Z")
I just went on and sold a skill book. I could also sell nearly everything an alpha gets in the first 15 days, including ships. ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/42 "2024-03-04T18:50:53Z")
Which old ones? –Curious Gadget ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/43 "2024-03-04T19:35:39Z")
extrinsic reward bad Can’t be bothered to elaborate why ---
**Author:** ![an675](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/an675/32/399327_2.png) [@an675](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/an675)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/44 "2024-03-04T20:28:12Z")
The problem with these forums is that a huge amount of the posts are just endless mildly disguised “stop/nerf ganking” posts, and “x should be easier” (like the current auto d-scan thread), an awful lot of the content is of no interest to non-hisec players. When you compare the discussions here to reddit there is a clear distinction between the audiences, most of the subjects on here tend to be about game mechanics/theory crafting, reddit has much more discussion around actual battles/events/politics, so tends to be much more engaging discussion. Its highly unlikely that the rewards offered would result in an increase of quality content anyway, if every player posts to claim their rewards i doubt there’s enough moderation time to actually keep up so it would just turn into a mass of low effort posts. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/45 "2024-03-04T20:50:00Z")
> [@Dchill](#): > > But it still seems like a problem Is there anything that _doesn’t_ seem like a problem to you ? I mean…maybe there aren’t enough dolphins swimming in space ? Or why are there never flies stuck to the window of one’s space ship ? Or, where do the white mice live that decided to make every warp path in Eve fly right through a planet ? I mean…gosh…the list of ‘problems’ one can invent out of nowhere is endless. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/46 "2024-03-04T21:05:56Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Is there anything that _doesn’t_ seem like a problem to you ? In New Eden there is problem And that problem is carebear They grind all the PvE money They never share with us Throw carebear down the well So New Eden can be free You must grab him by his barge Then we have a big party ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/47 "2024-03-04T21:06:00Z")
The problem is that these forums **suck**. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/48 "2024-03-04T21:29:10Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > The problem is that these forums… … are selectively moderated by volunteers from out of the game instead of paid mods that know how to moderate. People who join these forums quickly leave in disgust over how badly moderated they are.. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 3:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/49 "2024-03-05T03:40:08Z")
I’m not seeing any moderation issues much at all. For someone to keep railing on about it they sure must have done some crappy stuff (on alts, obviously) that got them caught. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 3:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/50 "2024-03-05T03:51:41Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > I’m not seeing any moderation issues much at all. That’s the problem. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 3:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/51 "2024-03-05T03:56:30Z")
Ehh… That makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/52 "2024-03-05T03:59:49Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > That makes no sense. I’m not going to waste time trying to explain to a willfully ignorant poster what is glaringly obvious to everyone else. Find one of the regulars to start one of your arguments with. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 4:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/53 "2024-03-05T04:04:57Z")
Not sure if you’ve noticed but I regularly have arguments with people, many of them “regulars”. This reeks of being a you issue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Rochard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/john_rochard/32/373864_2.png) [@John\_Rochard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/John_Rochard)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 6:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/55 "2024-03-05T06:19:56Z")
> [@Dchill](#): > > I mean something does not add up. With 30,000 players and the client reports at least 50% online most of the time. You would think more than 0.001% to be on these forums. I have seen this before, most of the players see how the toxic forums are and avoid them like the plague. The rest just don’t give a rat’s ass to say anything about the game because talking at the other players here don’t matter. We are not in charge of the game, this is suppose to be a place for players to hook up and talk about the game. Instead many game forums degenerate into users complaining to other users. For example; over on the EA Apex forums, they use very strict language rules, to the point you can get temp and/or perma-banned from the game for the use of bad language… o.O Any given day one can look at the forum and read “EA Banned Me for No Reason!”, all too common. The game is very LBTQXYZ friendly and therefor full of what many others call “snowflakes” and “carebears”. The only reason I am not banned, I don’t talk to my party. Sure I find offensive language offensive, but I expect it in PvP games. But there is a tiny group on the forums there about 20 to 30 people. When you have an estimated 400,000 playing the game across PC, PS, XB, and NS, one would expect there to be more talk in the forums. Once again, players on the game, play and don’t give a rat’s ass to say anything to the public at large. However @Dchill if it makes you feel better, I think a lot of the numbers are faked accounts by the game companies to push their product. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 6:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/56 "2024-03-05T06:39:09Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > I’m not seeing any moderation issues much at all. Well you get a nice example just after : > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Epeen is getting salty again. I guess he thinks that if these forums were “properly” moderated, then he’d be thanked for his service and given the key to the city, while all the undesirables would get the public lynchings they so deserve? If you don’t see a problem with that, then you have a problem. [https://forums.eveonline.com/faq](https://forums.eveonline.com/faq) > ## [Be Agreeable, Even When You Disagree](https://forums.eveonline.com/faq#agreeable) > > You may wish to respond to something by disagreeing with it. That’s fine. But, remember to _criticize ideas, not people_. Please avoid: > > - Name-calling. > - **Ad hominem attacks**. > - Responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content. > - Knee-jerk contradiction. The problem, is that the rules are applied at the taste of the moderator. Imagine for cops… “you killed 1000 people but you placed their body in a funny way. You get a slap on the hand”. “you allowed people to sell toxic food but I liked your speech governor. You get a slap on the hand.” That’s corruption. That’s what we have on the forum. If you don’t see an issue with that, then you are the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 7:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/57 "2024-03-05T07:21:03Z")
That’s not a particularly good take, because your own interpretation of “ad hominem attack” is just as biased and subjective as that of the moderators that you allege. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 7:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/58 "2024-03-05T07:40:28Z")
That’s why you use definition and not interpretation. Your post attacks the person instead of his argument, so it’s an ad hominem. If you can’t apply such a simple definition, then you are the problem. There are a few requirements to a discussion, one of them being a minimum threshold of intelligence. You not matching it means you are not able to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/59 "2024-03-05T07:58:31Z")
If we “apply the definition,” then I assure you that the effects of the moderation wouldn’t go in the way you expect them to. Some of what I assume to be your favorite posters would be the ones hit most severely by more intense moderation efforts. Additionally, most discussions would simply…_cease._ The forums would just be a bunch of threads following the standard template of a viewpoint being expressed, followed by a number of posts like “thank you for your post, very well written, +1.” The underlying reason is that EVE is a competitive video game environment. It’s not just a discussion forum for hamburger or Toyota enjoyers where there’s no underlying need to engage with anyone you disagree with, because it’s not a zero-sum game. Here, a person can for example post a pro/anti-ganking thread with the fundamental goal of promoting or removing such gameplay, respectively, _at the expense of others,_ making it entirely rational to make arguments like “gankers only do it because they have no skill and suck at the game so they need to go after weak targets” and “miners complain about ganking because they’re lazy and want to grind without paying attention to the game, and are greedy because they don’t want to contribute their fair share of destruction to the economy.” But both of those argument are _effectively_ ad hominem attacks, just ones that are veiled in a third-person observation sort of way to give them legitimacy. Your perspective about applying rules according to a definition is severely lacking in the nuance of gauging the _degree_ to which something is done contrary to the rules, and what the unconscionable limit to acceptable behavior is in every individual case. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 8:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/60 "2024-03-05T08:24:04Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Some of what I assume to be your favorite posters would be the ones hit most severely by more intense moderation efforts. How is that argument even one ? You make assumptions on me. This does not give any logic to your argument. If I remove the personal assumptions, all that remains is “Some would be the ones hit most severely by more intense moderation efforts.” How is that a problem ? Your arguments are nonsense. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Additionally, most discussions would simply…_cease._ The discussion that would cease when you remove personal attacks are not discussion to start with. They are aggression pit. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The underlying reason is that EVE is a competitive video game environment. That’s a lie. Eve being competitive does not imply that the forum must be toxic. The underlying reason why it’s that toxic is because moderation is complacent. The reason moderation is complacent is because 1. CCP consider it’s acceptable in a “brutal” game to have brutal behavior, only to be proven false when later legal actions follow real life harassment. 2. they only need the minimum to reduce the legal action risk. 3. CCP has made the game on the idea of a “allow all” mentality (precisely ultra liberal distopy) which was stupid to start with (because it’s prone to abuse, AKA “emergent gameplay” ) and they are having a hard time removing that premise without destroying the game. It was made on some solid basis, mainly KISS to reduce management (no rule =\> no need for people to check them) but then it fell the moment they started claiming things are “exploit”. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Here, a person can for example post a pro/anti-ganking thread with the fundamental goal of promoting or removing such gameplay, That’s a personal attack. If his argument is sound, then this is not a problem. We don’t care why he made the post, if it makes sense it makes sense. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > making it entirely rational to make arguments like “gankers only do it because they have no skill and suck at the game so they need to go after weak targets” Indeed, that is a personal attack. Also a lie : I ganked because I had no skill, I sucked and I could only go after defenseless targets. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > just ones that are veiled in a third-person observation sort of way to give them legitimacy. exactly, both are not acceptable arguments. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Your perspective about applying rules according to a definition is severely lacking in the nuance of gauging the _degree_ to which something is done contrary to the rules, It’s not. In both the cases you quote, those are not acceptable arguments. Period. The miner should have expressed his despair about growing in a game where people already established can freely harass him without an impact . The ganker should have expressed his despair about the lack of weak targets. In both cases there is a difference between expressing one’s feeling and making intepretation out of it, that rely on an image made solely for the justification of that feeling (AKA rationalize one’s feeling). THAT interpretation is the problem. That being said, all those are nothing special. They are the basis of a civil discussion. Just like 1+1=2 . This knowledge should not be brought to you by unknown people on the internets. That’s something your parents, family, teachers should have taught you. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 8:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584/61 "2024-03-05T08:42:54Z")
The concept of “toxicity” is in itself completely subjective. What’s toxic to one person is regular conversation to another. For example, I wouldn’t support an environment in which another player couldn’t accuse me of having no skill, even though an argument _could_ be made for such an accusation being an ad hominem attack and/or toxic. That’s why the _degree_ of transgression is important. In EVE, it makes sense for that degree to be fairly high, because this is a competitive multiplayer game with zero-sum opinions on its creative direction. It would also make little sense for calling someone skill-less, or a coward, or salty, or a griefer to be an actionable offense, while destroying many hours of someone’s work _within_ the game, or lying to them, or stealing from them, are all actions that are perfectly allowed. And that’s why the barrier to moderation _is_ in fact that high; calling someone a “dumb n-word,” for example, would lead to action, but calling someone a “clueless noob” wouldn’t. In that regard, what I said in this thread _isn’t_ considered toxic, and if it _were,_ then that very standard would also apply to classifying comments like… ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/5/9/d/59d3ed727675d9c7b2967056ffb0f3cd69f434c6.png) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/f/3/ff3b39f4df30dd1b0c539389656780e306ec437c.png) …as ad hominem and/or toxic. But you didn’t call out _those_ comments because of your own bias. So far you’ve only been calling out the comments of the people who don’t share in your viewpoints as ad hominem and/or toxic. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/30-000-players/441584.md?page=4)